Ordinary Form in Latin

[OraLabora]

Well, gang, I definitely took a stand last evening at our daily Mass (evening).

For the last few times that I have attended, after the Mass is ended (AFTER the Mass has ENDED–note that, please!), the congregation has sung a song in a foreign language.

This is fairly recent. I attend the evening daily Mass whenever I have the time free, and only in the last few times has this happened.

The first time it happened, I wasn’t even sure that it was Latin. There are quite a few Hispanics in our parish, and it sounded like it might be in Spanish. So I stood politely.

But then it happened again, and I was able to pick out some Latin (with a very Midwest or Hispanic accent, depending on who was doing the singing). I couldn’t understand much of it, and since it was chant, I couldn’t recognize a melody to be able to look it up in the hymnal.

Mind you, it wasn’t an enthusiastic singing by everyone in the congregation. It was about four people singing enthusiastically while others stood. Even the priest didn’t join in.

Finally last evening, I took a stand. AFTER the Mass was ENDED, and this song was over, I turned around and asked, “Pardon me, what was that song, please?”

The lady told me, “Salve Regina.”

I said, “Where is it in the hymnal?”

She said, “Page ___.”

She explained that one of the priests used to love this song, and so they started singing it after Mass. The first few times, they announced the page #, but now everyone knows that it’s on Page ____, so they just sing it."

I told her, “I didn’t know the page number. Anyone visiting doesn’t know the page number. I had no idea what you were singing. I’m from a Protestant background where Latin was never used, and I have no idea what you are singing.”

She told me she would make sure that the hymn was announced in future Masses. I thanked her.

Now I suppose some might say that I was rude. But I think it’s rude in an OF Mass to sing songs in a foreign language without telling anyone what they are singing and where to find it (and the very important translation!). It’s like keeping a little secret–how is anyone supposed to get familiar with and more comfortable with the Latin language if it’s kept “just between Catholics?”

Hopefully the lady will make sure the hymn is announced, and I will do what I usually do during the singing of Latin hymns–follow along in the English translation . I personally cannot see any point to singing or speaking in a foreign language. I recognize that those who grew up with find it “more reverent,” and some people who didn’t grow up with it are drawn towards Latin. But I didn’t grow up with it, and I don’t see the point.

As for the chant–it was a fairly complex chant, and I don’t think it’s likely that people without the ability to read music or pronounce Latin (thanks to our abominable music education in the schools over the last 40 years) will be able to “pick it up” by just listening to the other people sing it. But at least those four people know it. It’s just like Praise and Worship in the Protestant churches–only four people singing, and all the rest of us sitting and listening!

I don’t know… I have zero musical training and I learned chant at age 44. I couldn’t even read music until then. Now I can read square notes bu still have trouble with modern notation. I was able to learn and memorise the Salve Regina on both the simple and solemn tones and I sing them after compline from memory every day, the simple on weekdays and the solemn on Sundays and solemnities. I practised with a CD.

If a musical dunce like me could learn it, I’m sure more could. Moreover it’s one of the best known, if not most popular, chants. I came back to the Church at age 39 after a 22 year absence, and a product of Vatican II (i.e. no chant knowledge), so my level of chant knowledge was probably close to yours other than listening to a few CDs.

However I like this musical form. It’s not for everybody, but it certainly has deep roots in Church tradition even after Vatican II.

 

[Usige]

But I think it’s rude in an OF Mass to sing songs in a foreign language without telling anyone what they are singing and where to find it (and the very important translation!). It’s like keeping a little secret–how is anyone supposed to get familiar with and more comfortable with the Latin language if it’s kept “just between Catholics?”

I know you and I disagree on the use of Latin in the Mass, but in a perfect world Catholics should be able to recognize the 4 or 5 most common Latin hymns even if they don’t know them off the top of their heads. Off the top of my I’m thinking of Ave Maria (Hail Mary), Salve Regina (Hail Holy Queen), Ubi Caritas (Where Charity [and love are]) and *Regina Caeli *(Queen of Heaven). Being that this is November, I would love to add the traditional hymn from the Requiem Mass, Dies Irae, but even the English text is rarely used.

We need to move beyond Latin being treated like some bizarre “foreign language” in the liturgy; something to be mistrusted. I know many people that say things like “I’m not singing/saying it since I don’t know what it means”. While I applaud the desire to understand, I have a problem with the implied mistrust. It feels like they think they are going to be tricked into praying to Satan or be lead into error. All of the hymns listed above have well known translations so it is easy for any Catholic to find the translation.

That being said. I would agree that any song for corporate singing should be announced. Even if you recognize that a group is singing Ave Maria doesn’t mean you will know the tune or the particular arraignment.

 

[Usige]

Beyond the supply and demand question (I think it varies greatly by region) there is Father David’s point that few missal’s are made that contain both the Latin and vernacular texts for the Ordinary Form. At hte very least the priest would need the Latin in the Sacramentary. I have seen a few parishes that have the Latin versions of the OF prayers/responses as pew cards, but they were produced by the parish itself.

The one point that is missing in the above discussion is that I understand that different seminaries teach Latin at varying degrees. The few priest I have talked to about it, say they learned Latin as a prerequisite to reading for Theology classes, but it wasn’t really taught with an eye to the liturgy. So while they might be able to puzzle out the meaning of something in Latin they didn’t have a lot of practice with using Latin as a spoken component of the liturgy.

An additional component to the supply and demand question is that there are some that are outright hostile to the use of Latin in the Mass. My gut feel in talking to various people is that many Catholics would be ambivalent about portions of the Mass in Latin. They aren’t phased by Agnus Dei versus Lamb of God. If you start getting into the longer prayers you see less support. But there are certain elements that hate the utterance of Latin in any form. They see it as a throw back to the “bad old days” and will fight tooth and nail with any effort to introduce even minor use of Latin in the liturgy.

A final point about those that say any with a preference for Latin would rather attend the EF. I question if that is true. I know several people the would like to see more Latin in the OF to maintain the linguistic continuity between the OF and EF. When people say “you want Latin, there’s an ICK/FSSP/XXX parish 60 miles that way” it further enforces the idea that there are two different Masses rather than two expressions of the same sacrifice.

 

[CountrySteve]

Beyond the supply and demand question (I think it varies greatly by region) there is Father David’s point that few missal’s are made that contain both the Latin and vernacular texts for the Ordinary Form. At hte very least the priest would need the Latin in the Sacramentary. I have seen a few parishes that have the Latin versions of the OF prayers/responses as pew cards, but they were produced by the parish itself.

The one point that is missing in the above discussion is that I understand that different seminaries teach Latin at varying degrees. The few priest I have talked to about it, say they learned Latin as a prerequisite to reading for Theology classes, but it wasn’t really taught with an eye to the liturgy. So while they might be able to puzzle out the meaning of something in Latin they didn’t have a lot of practice with using Latin as a spoken component of the liturgy.

An additional component to the supply and demand question is that there are some that are outright hostile to the use of Latin in the Mass. My gut feel in talking to various people is that many Catholics would be ambivalent about portions of the Mass in Latin. They aren’t phased by Agnus Dei versus Lamb of God. If you start getting into the longer prayers you see less support. But there are certain elements that hate the utterance of Latin in any form. They see it as a throw back to the “bad old days” and will fight tooth and nail with any effort to introduce even minor use of Latin in the liturgy.

A final point about those that say any with a preference for Latin would rather attend the EF. I question if that is true. I know several people the would like to see more Latin in the OF to maintain the linguistic continuity between the OF and EF. When people say “you want Latin, there’s an ICK/FSSP/XXX parish 60 miles that way” it further enforces the idea that there are two different Masses rather than two expressions of the same sacrifice.

This! I would love to attend a OF Mass in Latin. Especially since the Church wants us to use Latin in the Liturgy anyways!

 

[OraLabora]

A final point about those that say any with a preference for Latin would rather attend the EF. I question if that is true. I know several people the would like to see more Latin in the OF to maintain the linguistic continuity between the OF and EF. When people say “you want Latin, there’s an ICK/FSSP/XXX parish 60 miles that way” it further enforces the idea that there are two different Masses rather than two expressions of the same sacrifice.

I actually prefer the OF and would much rather attend an OF in Latin than an EF.

The abbey I’m associated with strikes, ISTM, a decent balance: the propers and ordinary are in Gregorian chant, in Latin (Kyrie in Greek of course), and the rest is in French plainchant which sounds suitably “traditional”. The effect is rather stunning actually. Moreover the readings, prayers and standard responses are in the local vernacular (French) which makes participation and understanding easy for those weak in Latin. There are a few other Benedictine communities nearby that do the OF in the same way, or entirely in Latin. Benedictine nuns in Westfield, Vermont, do the OF entirely in Latin, as do the Benedictine nuns near Montreal (Westfield is a foundation of theirs) at least a couple of days a week; on other days it’s as at our abbey.

I’ve also been to OF Masses in Latin in Rome (incidentally I leave for Rome on Sunday for a meeting at Sant’Anselmo abbey); at Monte Cassino it’s even ad orientem!

I don’t quite buy into the idea that Latin is a foreign language. It may seem foreign because it is no longer taught, but it not only is the official language of the Church, it is a root language for much of Western culture (and particularly for the Latin-based languages like Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, but also for English). I love languages and writing, and knowing the rudiments of Latin has been a big help.

 

[MissRose73]

I’ve been to an OF Mass in Latin one time. EWTN mixes Latin and English together in the daily Masses, and how much of each used depends on the celebrant. I wish a bit of Latin was thrown into the OF but its rare to hear it where I am.

There is a parish a few hours away from me that does a weekday Mass in the OF. They also do a Sunday EF Mass (on Saturday evening that I went to once a long time ago), and one in a foreign language for Sunday in addition to English speaking OF Masses.

 

[twf]

Well, gang, I definitely took a stand last evening at our daily Mass (evening).

For the last few times that I have attended, after the Mass is ended (AFTER the Mass has ENDED–note that, please!), the congregation has sung a song in a foreign language.

This is fairly recent. I attend the evening daily Mass whenever I have the time free, and only in the last few times has this happened.

The first time it happened, I wasn’t even sure that it was Latin. There are quite a few Hispanics in our parish, and it sounded like it might be in Spanish. So I stood politely.

But then it happened again, and I was able to pick out some Latin (with a very Midwest or Hispanic accent, depending on who was doing the singing). I couldn’t understand much of it, and since it was chant, I couldn’t recognize a melody to be able to look it up in the hymnal.

Mind you, it wasn’t an enthusiastic singing by everyone in the congregation. It was about four people singing enthusiastically while others stood. Even the priest didn’t join in.

Finally last evening, I took a stand. AFTER the Mass was ENDED, and this song was over, I turned around and asked, “Pardon me, what was that song, please?”

The lady told me, “Salve Regina.”

I said, “Where is it in the hymnal?”

She said, “Page ___.”

She explained that one of the priests used to love this song, and so they started singing it after Mass. The first few times, they announced the page #, but now everyone knows that it’s on Page ____, so they just sing it."

I told her, “I didn’t know the page number. Anyone visiting doesn’t know the page number. I had no idea what you were singing. I’m from a Protestant background where Latin was never used, and I have no idea what you are singing.”

She told me she would make sure that the hymn was announced in future Masses. I thanked her.

Now I suppose some might say that I was rude. But I think it’s rude in an OF Mass to sing songs in a foreign language without telling anyone what they are singing and where to find it (and the very important translation!). It’s like keeping a little secret–how is anyone supposed to get familiar with and more comfortable with the Latin language if it’s kept “just between Catholics?”

Hopefully the lady will make sure the hymn is announced, and I will do what I usually do during the singing of Latin hymns–follow along in the English translation . I personally cannot see any point to singing or speaking in a foreign language. I recognize that those who grew up with find it “more reverent,” and some people who didn’t grow up with it are drawn towards Latin. But I didn’t grow up with it, and I don’t see the point.

As for the chant–it was a fairly complex chant, and I don’t think it’s likely that people without the ability to read music or pronounce Latin (thanks to our abominable music education in the schools over the last 40 years) will be able to “pick it up” by just listening to the other people sing it. But at least those four people know it. It’s just like Praise and Worship in the Protestant churches–only four people singing, and all the rest of us sitting and listening!

I, like you, am a convert from an Evangelical Protestant background… but I have often been exposed to Salve Regina at multiple parishes in different dioceses across a couple different countries. Even in the post-Vatican II liturgical reality, I have found Salve Regina and several other Latin hymns to still be deeply cherished by a significant portion of the faithful. I am actually surprised you hadn’t come across it before.

This is not a criticism of you whatsoever, but I do believe that Catholics should be encouraged to learn a few of the old “standard” Latin hymns in the same way that we are encouraged to learn standard prayers such as the Pater Noster. I admit that I have learned most of the standard prayers in English, not in Latin, but Pope Benedict, as did popes before him, did encourage the faithful to learn to say the basic prayers in Latin to encourage Catholics of diverse cultures to pray together. The Council Fathers at Vatican II were also very clear that Latin was to be retained in the mass, even if the vernacular was also used where appropriate.

 

[phil19034]

Hi Cat - I have some comments for you based on the 2nd half of your post.

She told me she would make sure that the hymn was announced in future Masses. I thanked her.

As a note: I read somewhere, in an official archdiocesan document regarding liturgy, that technically, hymnal numbers should not be announced during the mass (after the mass is ok though). The use of the hymnal board usually can take care of this – NOTE: I know you said after mass

Now I suppose some might say that I was rude. But I think it’s rude in an OF Mass to sing songs in a foreign language without telling anyone what they are singing and where to find it (and the very important translation!). It’s like keeping a little secret–how is anyone supposed to get familiar with and more comfortable with the Latin language if it’s kept “just between Catholics?”

I used to experience the same thing with a hymn in ENGLISH. The priest likes to chant the chorus from Oh Sacrament after Communion.

Hopefully the lady will make sure the hymn is announced, and I will do what I usually do during the singing of Latin hymns–follow along in the English translation . I personally cannot see any point to singing or speaking in a foreign language. I recognize that those who grew up with find it “more reverent,” and some people who didn’t grow up with it are drawn towards Latin. But I didn’t grow up with it, and I don’t see the point.

Cat - do you like Opera in Italian or classical music? I personally love the Latin Chat, and which I could hear it at every Mass. But I also LOVE Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Brahmas, Chopin, Strauss, etc. I love the Church voice pieces they wrote. Mozart composed more than 60 pieces of sacred music. One of his best was the Great Mass in C minor (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mass_in_C_minor,_K._427)

The version of Ave Maria composed by Bach is one of the more popular versions used at weddings. What Catholic can honestly she he/she hates Ave Maria (which is the prayer Hail Mary in Latin)?

So many of the Great Composers wrote TONS of beautiful works of musical art for the Church. Just like the Great Renaissance Painters created works of physical art for the Church too. If the Church started to discard the physical art, people would be hurt. But in many ways, we have discarded the musical art which was composed for the Church. Sacred Music is a gift the Church has from these wonderful Composers, it’s a shame to never use it. It’s like having a painting of the Blessed Mother by Michelangelo in a parish storage room.

As for the chant–it was a fairly complex chant, and I don’t think it’s likely that people without the ability to read music or pronounce Latin (thanks to our abominable music education in the schools over the last 40 years) will be able to “pick it up” by just listening to the other people sing it. But at least those four people know it. It’s just like Praise and Worship in the Protestant churches–only four people singing, and all the rest of us sitting and listening!

Chant doesn’t have to be chanted like it is being chanted by a schola. Often times, priests chant parts of the Mass in English without sounding like a schola. Most hymnals which have the chant just show the dots. It doesn’t even have to be in tune.

I know that Cantors and Choirs take pride in their musical preparation for Mass, and rightfully so. (I personally I which I had musical talent.) But we can Chant without sounding like a profession choir. Catholics know how to chant together, it comes natural to use in Mass. How many times have you been to mass when the priest (without the cantor or organist) started chanting Our Father? The whole church is right in step with him. It doesn’t have to the elaborate and complex version when you don’t have a professionally trained choir or schola. All you need is one person on a mic who can pronounce the words correctly, and that can be the priest.

Learning to correctly pronounce Latin from sheet music really isn’t that hard and most sheet music has the English translation underneath. I often attend Mass at the Cathedral in Philly. During special masses, a lot of the music and some of the prayers are sung in Latin. All 1500 people in the pews are singing along. One person from my parish was there for a Deacon Ordination (I was there too). I was standing next to her when she spoke to the pastor and said “I have never heard such beautiful Church music before in my life.”

Also some people are not singers. They like to listen and soak in the music by listening, which is cool too. Whether it’s Latin or English.

Finally, I will leave this with one more thing to consider: there is this new trend on holidays to sing hymns in English and then others in Spanish (or in whatever languages Masses are celebrated in). They do this so the foreign language Mass parishioners feel included. However, often the foreign Mass hymnals are not in the pews or there are only a small number of them. A small number of people sing them and every English only speaker just sits and listens. (I know of one parish that has mass in English, Spanish & Vietnamese.) Instead, I think we should focus on using Latin during these holidays as a way to show Catholic unity, instead of trying to sing songs from several different languages. Latin unifies us musically when having bi-lingual masses.

God Bless.

 

[phil19034]

Just as FYI - Christendom College has Latin Mass in the OF often. On Sundays, it’s only in Latin using the Ordinary Form.

christendom.edu/spiritual/chapel-schedule.php (as of 11/5/2015)

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

Sunday
10:00 AM (Latin) Ordinary Form

Monday
7:30 AM (English) Ordinary Form
11:30 AM (English) Ordinary Form

Tuesday
7:30 AM (Latin) Extraordinary Form
11:30 AM (Latin) Ordinary Form

Wednesday
7:30 AM (English) Ordinary Form
11:30 AM (English) Ordinary Form

Thursday
7:30 AM (English) Ordinary Form
11:30 AM (English) Ordinary Form

Friday
7:30 AM (English) Ordinary Form
11:30 AM (Latin) Ordinary Form - ad orientem
4:10 PM (Latin) Extraordinary Form

Saturday
7:30 AM (English) Ordinary Form
11:30 AM (Latin) Ordinary Form

 

[otjm]

Well, gang, I definitely took a stand last evening at our daily Mass (evening).

For the last few times that I have attended, after the Mass is ended (AFTER the Mass has ENDED–note that, please!), the congregation has sung a song in a foreign language.

This is fairly recent. I attend the evening daily Mass whenever I have the time free, and only in the last few times has this happened.

The first time it happened, I wasn’t even sure that it was Latin. There are quite a few Hispanics in our parish, and it sounded like it might be in Spanish. So I stood politely.

But then it happened again, and I was able to pick out some Latin (with a very Midwest or Hispanic accent, depending on who was doing the singing). I couldn’t understand much of it, and since it was chant, I couldn’t recognize a melody to be able to look it up in the hymnal.

Mind you, it wasn’t an enthusiastic singing by everyone in the congregation. It was about four people singing enthusiastically while others stood. Even the priest didn’t join in.

Finally last evening, I took a stand. AFTER the Mass was ENDED, and this song was over, I turned around and asked, “Pardon me, what was that song, please?”

The lady told me, “Salve Regina.”

I said, “Where is it in the hymnal?”

She said, “Page ___.”

She explained that one of the priests used to love this song, and so they started singing it after Mass. The first few times, they announced the page #, but now everyone knows that it’s on Page ____, so they just sing it."

I told her, “I didn’t know the page number. Anyone visiting doesn’t know the page number. I had no idea what you were singing. I’m from a Protestant background where Latin was never used, and I have no idea what you are singing.”

She told me she would make sure that the hymn was announced in future Masses. I thanked her.

Now I suppose some might say that I was rude. But I think it’s rude in an OF Mass to sing songs in a foreign language without telling anyone what they are singing and where to find it (and the very important translation!). It’s like keeping a little secret–how is anyone supposed to get familiar with and more comfortable with the Latin language if it’s kept “just between Catholics?”

Hopefully the lady will make sure the hymn is announced, and I will do what I usually do during the singing of Latin hymns–follow along in the English translation . I personally cannot see any point to singing or speaking in a foreign language. I recognize that those who grew up with find it “more reverent,” and some people who didn’t grow up with it are drawn towards Latin. But I didn’t grow up with it, and I don’t see the point.

As for the chant–it was a fairly complex chant, and I don’t think it’s likely that people without the ability to read music or pronounce Latin (thanks to our abominable music education in the schools over the last 40 years) will be able to “pick it up” by just listening to the other people sing it. But at least those four people know it. It’s just like Praise and Worship in the Protestant churches–only four people singing, and all the rest of us sitting and listening!

It would seem essentially that someone was a bit thoughtless; not rude; but simply not thinking things through. Even if it was not in a different language, any visitor to the parish might be lost without being able to go to the hymn in a book and be able to sing along. Some of those might be people who are “testing the waters”. No sense in appearing exclusive where it is not appropriate.

 

[otjm]

Well, gang, I definitely took a stand last evening at our daily Mass (evening).

For the last few times that I have attended, after the Mass is ended (AFTER the Mass has ENDED–note that, please!), the congregation has sung a song in a foreign language.

This is fairly recent. I attend the evening daily Mass whenever I have the time free, and only in the last few times has this happened.

The first time it happened, I wasn’t even sure that it was Latin. There are quite a few Hispanics in our parish, and it sounded like it might be in Spanish. So I stood politely.

But then it happened again, and I was able to pick out some Latin (with a very Midwest or Hispanic accent, depending on who was doing the singing). I couldn’t understand much of it, and since it was chant, I couldn’t recognize a melody to be able to look it up in the hymnal.

Mind you, it wasn’t an enthusiastic singing by everyone in the congregation. It was about four people singing enthusiastically while others stood. Even the priest didn’t join in.

Finally last evening, I took a stand. AFTER the Mass was ENDED, and this song was over, I turned around and asked, “Pardon me, what was that song, please?”

The lady told me, “Salve Regina.”

I said, “Where is it in the hymnal?”

She said, “Page ___.”

She explained that one of the priests used to love this song, and so they started singing it after Mass. The first few times, they announced the page #, but now everyone knows that it’s on Page ____, so they just sing it."

I told her, “I didn’t know the page number. Anyone visiting doesn’t know the page number. I had no idea what you were singing. I’m from a Protestant background where Latin was never used, and I have no idea what you are singing.”

She told me she would make sure that the hymn was announced in future Masses. I thanked her.

Now I suppose some might say that I was rude. But I think it’s rude in an OF Mass to sing songs in a foreign language without telling anyone what they are singing and where to find it (and the very important translation!). It’s like keeping a little secret–how is anyone supposed to get familiar with and more comfortable with the Latin language if it’s kept “just between Catholics?”

Hopefully the lady will make sure the hymn is announced, and I will do what I usually do during the singing of Latin hymns–follow along in the English translation . I personally cannot see any point to singing or speaking in a foreign language. I recognize that those who grew up with find it “more reverent,” and some people who didn’t grow up with it are drawn towards Latin. But I didn’t grow up with it, and I don’t see the point.

As for the chant–it was a fairly complex chant, and I don’t think it’s likely that people without the ability to read music or pronounce Latin (thanks to our abominable music education in the schools over the last 40 years) will be able to “pick it up” by just listening to the other people sing it. But at least those four people know it. It’s just like Praise and Worship in the Protestant churches–only four people singing, and all the rest of us sitting and listening!

It would seem essentially that someone was a bit thoughtless; not rude; but simply not thinking things through. Even if it was not in a different language, any visitor to the parish might be lost without being able to go to the hymn in a book and be able to sing along. Some of those might be people who are “testing the waters”. No sense in appearing exclusive where it is not appropriate.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I told her, “I didn’t know the page number. Anyone visiting doesn’t know the page number. I had no idea what you were singing. I’m from a Protestant background where Latin was never used, and I have no idea what you are singing.”

And this, rather than the language, is what I see as the problem in this situation. It’s fine for a parish to have a custom of singing a certain song, reciting a certain prayer, etc. But hospitality says that they need to be aware that not everyone has been there before and knows the custom. How hard would it be to say “we invite everyone to stay after Mass and sing _____ which can be found on page _____ of the hymnal.”

I was in a parish named after St. Francis of Assisi and they recited the “Prayer of St. Francis” – ummm, I don’t remember now if it was after the Prayers of the Faithful or after Communion. But they announced it and told people where to find the words so they could join in. As a guest in the parish, it made me feel like I was welcome to be there. (No comments, please, on whether it is or isn’t appropriate to recite the Prayer of St. Francis during Mass.)

 

[Cat]

And this, rather than the language, is what I see as the problem in this situation. It’s fine for a parish to have a custom of singing a certain song, reciting a certain prayer, etc. But hospitality says that they need to be aware that not everyone has been there before and knows the custom. How hard would it be to say “we invite everyone to stay after Mass and sing _____ which can be found on page _____ of the hymnal.”

I was in a parish named after St. Francis of Assisi and they recited the “Prayer of St. Francis” – ummm, I don’t remember now if it was after the Prayers of the Faithful or after Communion. But they announced it and told people where to find the words so they could join in. As a guest in the parish, it made me feel like I was welcome to be there. (No comments, please, on whether it is or isn’t appropriate to recite the Prayer of St. Francis during Mass.)

That is the perfect word–hospitality. Thank you.

Both OF and EF Masses should be soaked through with the delicious marinade of hospitality. In fact, all of Catholicism should be hospitable.

 

[OraLabora]

That is the perfect word–hospitality. Thank you.

Both OF and EF Masses should be soaked through with the delicious marinade of hospitality. In fact, all of Catholicism should be hospitable.

Become a Benedictine, it’s our trademark!

 

[Cat]

Hi Cat - I have some comments for you based on the 2nd half of your post.

As a note: I read somewhere, in an official archdiocesan document regarding liturgy, that technically, hymnal numbers should not be announced during the mass (after the mass is ok though). The use of the hymnal board usually can take care of this – NOTE: I know you said after mass.

It is permissible to announce hymns during Mass. We do it all the time. We don’t have a “hymnal board,” we have some kind of little digital gizmo, and the Music Director uses it, but the rest of us get nervous around it and don’t use it, but instead, announce the hymns. (“The rest of us” consists of me and one other older man. Both of us are willing to play for Mass. He plays piano, and I now play piano and organ.)

I used to experience the same thing with a hymn in ENGLISH. The priest likes to chant the chorus from Oh Sacrament after Communion.

Cat - do you like Opera in Italian or classical music?

Not particularly. I appreciate it. That’s about it.

I personally love the Latin Chat, and which I could hear it at every Mass. But I also LOVE Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Brahmas, Chopin, Strauss, etc. I love the Church voice pieces they wrote. Mozart composed more than 60 pieces of sacred music. One of his best was the Great Mass in C minor (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mass_in_C_minor,_K._427)

The version of Ave Maria composed by Bach is one of the more popular versions used at weddings. What Catholic can honestly she he/she hates Ave Maria (which is the prayer Hail Mary in Latin)?

Again, I appreciate these pieces, and I respect your preference.

I prefer the Ave Maria in English. It can be done.

So many of the Great Composers wrote TONS of beautiful works of musical art for the Church. Just like the Great Renaissance Painters created works of physical art for the Church too. If the Church started to discard the physical art, people would be hurt. But in many ways, we have discarded the musical art which was composed for the Church. Sacred Music is a gift the Church has from these wonderful Composers, it’s a shame to never use it. It’s like having a painting of the Blessed Mother by Michelangelo in a parish storage room.

I think that we are beyond retrieving this kind of music in most parishes. Most people don’t play an instrument or sing correctly, and these pieces demand both. Some of the big city parishes have the resources to do Mass music like this, but most of us are lucky to have a piano player to play for Mass.

The Bach Choir in our city, which performs the type of pieces you are talking about, has a grand total of 12 people in it.

Chant doesn’t have to be chanted like it is being chanted by a schola. Often times, priests chant parts of the Mass in English without sounding like a schola. Most hymnals which have the chant just show the dots. It doesn’t even have to be in tune.

I know that Cantors and Choirs take pride in their musical preparation for Mass, and rightfully so. (I personally I which I had musical talent.) But we can Chant without sounding like a profession choir. Catholics know how to chant together, it comes natural to use in Mass. How many times have you been to mass when the priest (without the cantor or organist) started chanting Our Father? The whole church is right in step with him. It doesn’t have to the elaborate and complex version when you don’t have a professionally trained choir or schola. All you need is one person on a mic who can pronounce the words correctly, and that can be the priest.

Actually, you have touched a very sore nerve with your mention of chanting the Our Father. Yes, occasionally this is done in our parish, and my husband and I stand there like ignorant fools. We have NO IDEA what we are supposed to be singing, because there is no page number given, no music, no dots, no squares, no nothing. We don’t sing by ear. We sing by music, and when our fellow Catholics chant the Lord’s Prayer, we are left out. This has left me with a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to hearing this prayer chanted. Give us music.

Learning to correctly pronounce Latin from sheet music really isn’t that hard and most sheet music has the English translation underneath. I often attend Mass at the Cathedral in Philly. During special masses, a lot of the music and some of the prayers are sung in Latin. All 1500 people in the pews are singing along. One person from my parish was there for a Deacon Ordination (I was there too). I was standing next to her when she spoke to the pastor and said “I have never heard such beautiful Church music before in my life.”

The last time I heard 1500 people singing along was in a Protestant church. In our parish, chant is usually pretty anemic. I agree with you that it doesn’t have to be sung like a schola would sing it. But I have a hard time with singing that sounds like upset cats.

Also some people are not singers. They like to listen and soak in the music by listening, which is cool too. Whether it’s Latin or English.

From what I have seen, the vast majority of Catholics are not singers.

 

[Cat]

It is permissible to announce hymns during Mass. We do it all the time. We don’t have a “hymnal board,” we have some kind of little digital gizmo, and the Music Director uses it, but the rest of us get nervous around it and don’t use it, but instead, announce the hymns. (“The rest of us” consists of me and one other older man. Both of us are willing to play for Mass. He plays piano, and I now play piano and organ.)

Not particularly. I appreciate it. That’s about it.

Again, I appreciate these pieces, and I respect your preference.

I prefer the Ave Maria in English. It can be done.

I think that we are beyond retrieving this kind of music in most parishes. Most people don’t play an instrument or sing correctly, and these pieces demand both. Some of the big city parishes have the resources to do Mass music like this, but most of us are lucky to have a piano player to play for Mass.

The Bach Choir in our city, which performs the type of pieces you are talking about, has a grand total of 12 people in it.

Actually, you have touched a very sore nerve with your mention of chanting the Our Father. Yes, occasionally this is done in our parish, and my husband and I stand there like ignorant fools. We have NO IDEA what we are supposed to be singing, because there is no page number given, no music, no dots, no squares, no nothing. We don’t sing by ear. We sing by music, and when our fellow Catholics chant the Lord’s Prayer, we are left out. This has left me with a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to hearing this prayer chanted. Give us music.

The last time I heard 1500 people singing along was in a Protestant church. In our parish, chant is usually pretty anemic. I agree with you that it doesn’t have to be sung like a schola would sing it. But I have a hard time with singing that sounds like upset cats.

From what I have seen, the vast majority of Catholics are not singers.

Sorry, everyone, this last sentence probably sounds mean. But c’mon now–it’s kind of true. That one author actually wrote a book called Why Catholics Can’t Sing. So I know I’m not the only one who feels this way.

 

[phil19034]

Sorry, everyone, this last sentence probably sounds mean. But c’mon now–it’s kind of true. That one author actually wrote a book called Why Catholics Can’t Sing. So I know I’m not the only one who feels this way.

I know what you mean.

I sometimes attend mass at the diocesan Latin mass personal quasi-parish. The schola is excellent, beautiful voice. But before and after the mass, when the congregation is singing in English, it sounds like a train wreck!

 

[phil19034]

Actually, you have touched a very sore nerve with your mention of chanting the Our Father. Yes, occasionally this is done in our parish, and my husband and I stand there like ignorant fools. We have NO IDEA what we are supposed to be singing, because there is no page number given, no music, no dots, no squares, no nothing. We don’t sing by ear. We sing by music, and when our fellow Catholics chant the Lord’s Prayer, we are left out. This has left me with a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to hearing this prayer chanted. Give us music.

You could ask you priest to tell you how they do it. I believe (though I could be wrong) that it’s done by punctuation.

I beleive priests still learn how to chant written word in the seminary, without music, notes, etc.

A priest can (if he wanted to) Chant the whole Mass, scripture readings too. When they do this, I don’t think they have music or dots, etc. Just the words.

I believe they use punctuation. I just tried Chanting your longer post to me using that method. It worked ok. My voice stinks, but I can chant it.

 

[ProVobis]

Learning to correctly pronounce Latin from sheet music really isn’t that hard …

It shouldn’t be a problem since there are no silent letters in Latin. Italian, with its many vowel endings, is probably more singable but since Latin borrows its pronunciations, it’s plenty adequate for chant. Some priests are actually better at singing the Latin than at reciting it.

 

[Cat]

You could ask you priest to tell you how they do it. I believe (though I could be wrong) that it’s done by punctuation.

I beleive priests still learn how to chant written word in the seminary, without music, notes, etc.

A priest can (if he wanted to) Chant the whole Mass, scripture readings too. When they do this, I don’t think they have music or dots, etc. Just the words.

I believe they use punctuation. I just tried Chanting your longer post to me using that method. It worked ok. My voice stinks, but I can chant it.

No, no, no the Our Father chant is standard from parish to parish, which means that it IS written down somewhere. We’ve heard it in other parishes besides our own.

But no one ever tells us where it is written down.

If it was done week after week, every week, we would probably eventually learn it. But that’s the problem–it’s done every once in a while, so we don’t ever have the chance to learn it.

Although actually that’s just fine with us. Sorry to let you down, but both my husband and I really don’t “get” chant prayers. It seems incredibly strange–I mean that in complete seriousness–incredibly strange–to us to “sing” our prayers in a more or less monotone chant. Singing a melody is OK for praying, but simply elongating a speaking voice–it just doesn’t make sense to us. It doesn’t sound “reverent” or “mysterious” or “beautiful” to us–it just sounds weird. We’ve been Catholic now for ten years, and we still prefer just spoken prayers, thank you very much.

Perhaps it would help you and others to understand us by flipping things around. Many Catholics think it is incredibly strange (and downright irreverent) to have rock music with a full rock band in a worship service. We don’t find that strange at all. It’s what we were used to, and we still feel that it is grand and inspiring and very appropriate in the presence of God (not the True Presence, but present in the sense that God is omnipresent). Same for Gospel music–IMO, this music alone is The Music that best suits worship of God, because you don’t really ever hear it in any other setting other than “church.” Chant and polyphony are performed in concert halls all the time, but not so much with true “Gospel” music (even Southern Gospel is performed mainly in churches).

So I hope that helps you to put yourself in our shoes and see how we view chant.

Back before we converted to Catholicism, I used to say to my husband, “Catholics have more faith than any Christians, because the Mass is so strange.” I still think that. Other than Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, there is very little in most Masses, either OF or EF (and probably Latin OF–that one I’ve never heard) that would attract or hold anyone from week to week for a lifetime. It’s purely an exercise in complete and total faith.