Ordination of (former) Anglican

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This week I attended the ordination to the deaconate of a former Anglican priest. In August he will be ordained a priest. He is a married man with a grown family. He and his wife converted to Catholicism 2 years ago and he has applied for and recieved permission from Rome to be ordained in the Catholic church.

I don’t understand this apparent contradiction when Catholic priests are not allowed to marry but married priests are allowed to be ordained. :confused: Personally, I don’t believe priests should be married. I don’t believe a person can be fully commited to 2 vocations. A married person has to make their family their priority, a priest makes his parish his priority.A priest should never have to choose between his family and his parish.
 
We had a married priest who was a Lutheran convert, former green beret and had a wife and three kids. In addition to being a parish priest and having a family, he’s an active duty Army chaplain who gets deployed to the sandbox constantly. He’s a phenominal priest (who performed our marriage) and really got our sleepy parish off their butts! He was an outspoken opponent of married clergy, however. His parish always had to come first above his family. He really taught me (who formerly was one these ignorant types who didn’t have a problem with married clergy) what a bad idea it is to have married clergy. Is it possible? Yes. Is it advisable? No. And the Church in Her wisdom sees that and makes prudent exceptions (like in the case of this soon-to-be priest) only when it is in the best interest of the church.
 
I don’t believe a person can be fully commited to 2 vocations.
Wouldn’t someone who had only two vocations be an extremely limited person?

I am a husband, a father, a university professor, a son, a friend, and yes, a poster on these forums. Aren’t all of these vocations?

Edwin
 
This week I attended the ordination to the deaconate of a former Anglican priest. In August he will be ordained a priest. He is a married man with a grown family. He and his wife converted to Catholicism 2 years ago and he has applied for and recieved permission from Rome to be ordained in the Catholic church.

I don’t understand this apparent contradiction when Catholic priests are not allowed to marry but married priests are allowed to be ordained. :confused: Personally, I don’t believe priests should be married. I don’t believe a person can be fully commited to 2 vocations. A married person has to make their family their priority, a priest makes his parish his priority.A priest should never have to choose between his family and his parish.
The ideal from Scripture is that the married man is worried about his family while the unmarried can focus better on God. So you are correct that these 2 vocations are sizeable responsibilities. I think part of why he was accepted as a priest is because of 1. his kids are grown, and 2. his wife would have consented. I don’t know of any married converts with a house full of little ones that was accepted as a priest. It would be rare if ever.
 
This week I attended the ordination to the deaconate of a former Anglican priest. In August he will be ordained a priest. He is a married man with a grown family. He and his wife converted to Catholicism 2 years ago and he has applied for and recieved permission from Rome to be ordained in the Catholic church.

I don’t understand this apparent contradiction when Catholic priests are not allowed to marry but married priests are allowed to be ordained. :confused: Personally, I don’t believe priests should be married. I don’t believe a person can be fully commited to 2 vocations. A married person has to make their family their priority, a priest makes his parish his priority.A priest should never have to choose between his family and his parish.
I would welcome such a priest with my warmest regards and appreciation. I don’t see ANYTHING to be concerned about. Is this Priest going to serve in your own parish?

Remember some of the Apostles were married and all of the Eastern Church still permits married priests. There is nothing to fret about.

I would rather wish that the Roman Church would allow married priests (as is done in the East.) That is, marriage is NOT an impediment to being ordained, as long as it is the first marriage, and no re-marriage is permitted after ordination. It would help break up the unhealthy “seminary priests” culture.
 
I don’t understand this apparent contradiction when Catholic priests are not allowed to marry but married priests are allowed to be ordained. :confused:
It has always been the practice of the Catholic Church (Eastern and Western), the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church that, once ordained, clergy may not marry. As a rule, in the Latin rite of the Catholic Church, only celibate men are ordained to the priesthood. It is permissible for married clergy of other denominations received into the Catholic Church to be ordained to the priesthood (and of course it is also permissible for married Catholic men to be ordained to the diaconate) but unmarried deacons, once ordained, may not marry either.

Basically, if one intends to receive both the Sacrament of Matrimony and the Sacrament of Holy Orders, the former has to come first. This is based on the view (from 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1) that a man must demonstrate the ability to run a household before he is entrusted with the responsibility of shepherding a flock.
 
Wouldn’t someone who had only two vocations be an extremely limited person?

I am a husband, a father, a university professor, a son, a friend, and yes, a poster on these forums. Aren’t all of these vocations?

Edwin
I was speaking strictly from the Catholic standpoint – you either have a vocation to marriage or to holy orders (don’t know what it’s called if you have a calling to be a nun :o).
 
I would welcome such a priest with my warmest regards and appreciation. I don’t see ANYTHING to be concerned about. Is this Priest going to serve in your own parish?

Remember some of the Apostles were married and all of the Eastern Church still permits married priests. There is nothing to fret about.
I’m not concerned about his ability to be a priest, after all he had that function in the Anglican church and I’m sure he’s quite capable. Many people have spoken about what a good man he is, and he has conducted some bible studies in our parish. Both the bishop and the pastor for the parish are completely supportive of him. I just don’t understand the contradiction. Why is it that Rome, having a firm stance against married priests (which I agree with), allows men who are married in another faith and have converted, to be priests? It seems contradictory at best and hypocritical at worst.
 
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seagal:
I just don’t understand the contradiction. Why is it that Rome, having a firm stance against married priests (which I agree with), allows men who are married in another faith and have converted, to be priests? It seems contradictory at best and hypocritical at worst.
I see what you mean. The Roman Church does strongly believe that a celibate priesthood is necessary. However, I would be very happy myself if they would relax that discipline. I can see where an abrupt change would be counterproductive, but I believe a gradual relaxing would be very beneficial.

As you must know, the celibate priesthood of the Latin rite is a discipline, and not doctrinal. Therefore it is something that can change when necessary. I believe the Latin Church in the West could really benefit from such a gradual relaxation of this discipline. In my view, there is an unhealthy “seminary priest” culture, which puts priests in an artificial culture. Not every priest is affected, but quite a few are. The late pedophile scandal was only a single symptom of this culture. 😦
 
I was speaking strictly from the Catholic standpoint – you either have a vocation to marriage or to holy orders (don’t know what it’s called if you have a calling to be a nun :o).
Strictly speaking, from a Catholic standpoint that’s not true.

As someone else posted, Eastern Catholic Churches have maintained the practice of allowing married deacons and priests. They never limited it, as the Roman Catholic rite did, eventually, to only single men.

As someone else also posted, the rule is simply a matter of Church discipline. The Church can change the rule again any time.

Also, there’s a more normative example in the Roman Catholic rite for one person being ordained and married: the permanent diaconate.

There’s no hypocrisy of the Church or contradiction going on here.
 
There’s no hypocrisy of the Church or contradiction going on here.
Hypocrisy is probably too strong a word, but contradiction it certainly is. At the very least it’s inconsistent to require some people to follow a certain discipline and not others. And please don’t follow up with the obvious hair-splitting examples, i.e. that celebacy is required only of priests and not married people. What the church is saying here is “all priests must be unmarried…except for some”. Granted that the Church has the right to make whatever rules she wants. I just want to know the reasoning behind this particular “relaxing” of the rules.
 
I was speaking strictly from the Catholic standpoint – you either have a vocation to marriage or to holy orders (don’t know what it’s called if you have a calling to be a nun :o).
As another poster has pointed out, you are wrong here.

And I think that current Catholic teaching would agree with me that the word “vocation” needs to be used more broadly than the marriage/celibacy dichotomy.

You are reflecting centuries of traditional Catholic practice rather than formal theology, and in my opinion you’re providing a nice unintentional argument against that practice by showing how much it mixes up people’s theology in this regard.

Edwin
 
Hypocrisy is probably too strong a word, but contradiction it certainly is. At the very least it’s inconsistent to require some people to follow a certain discipline and not others. And please don’t follow up with the obvious hair-splitting examples, i.e. that celebacy is required only of priests and not married people. What the church is saying here is “all priests must be unmarried…except for some”.
No, I don’t agree that the Church contradicts Herself. The Church isn’t saying no married men can be ordained, and then ordaining them. The Church isn’t saying only married men can be ordained, and then ordaining celibate men. Those are examples of being contradictory. The Church says baptized males may be ordained (that’s not all that’s required, of course, but that’s the common ground among the different Rites and Orders).

I would call the variety of Rites a matter of “diversity” not “inconsistency” but I suppose that might be a point of view. Each Rite has its own history, theology, liturgy, etc. that make it distinct from other Rites while of course always maintaining more in common (the essentials of the Catholic faith). This is just a disciplinary practice.

The Church is only saying it’s the norm in the Roman Rite for clergy to be unmarried. The fact that there are exceptions to that disciplinary norm is not a problem.
 
As another poster has pointed out, you are wrong here.

And I think that current Catholic teaching would agree with me that the word “vocation” needs to be used more broadly than the marriage/celibacy dichotomy.

You are reflecting centuries of traditional Catholic practice rather than formal theology, and in my opinion you’re providing a nice unintentional argument against that practice by showing how much it mixes up people’s theology in this regard.

Edwin
I really didn’t want to get into a debate about whether or not priests should be married. I have my own opinion on that issue but that’s neither here nor there. My problem is simply trying to see the logic here. If the church has no problem in allowing exceptions to the rule (I’m only referring to the Roman Rite here), why not just allow all Roman priests to marry and have done with it? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander (so to speak).
 
…why not just allow all Roman priests to marry and have done with it?
The Church allows some married men to be ordained. She allows some unmarried men to be ordained. Unmarried men, once ordained, are expected to remain unmarried. The Church does not allow a man, once ordained, to then get married.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Iwhy not just allow all Roman priests to marry and have done with it? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander (so to speak).
I think you’ve gotten at least a couple good answers here.
 
I was speaking strictly from the Catholic standpoint – you either have a vocation to marriage or to holy orders (don’t know what it’s called if you have a calling to be a nun :o).
I am kind of curious as to where this notion that no one can possibly have two vocations comes from. Can anyone point to an official document or teaching on this matter? 🙂
 
I really didn’t want to get into a debate about whether or not priests should be married. I have my own opinion on that issue but that’s neither here nor there. My problem is simply trying to see the logic here. If the church has no problem in allowing exceptions to the rule (I’m only referring to the Roman Rite here), why not just allow all Roman priests to marry and have done with it? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander (so to speak).
Certain non-Catholic denominations are very similar to Catholicism (sometimes so similar that it is only non-Catholic because the Anglican communion does not have valid Holy Orders as recognized by the Catholic Church- and there are, sadly, plenty of Anglican parishes that act more Catholic than some Catholic ones).

The Church admits converts who were pastors in certain denominations to Holy Orders if they see fit to do so. They get a lot of media attention (both secular and Catholic), and they are usually exceptional priests. The Church ordains them because they know they are going to be exceptional- just like if the Church were to ordain someone who is blind, a condition which makes a person irregular for holy orders (and requires a dispensation from Rome if they are to be ordained). If there is something that would normally ban someone from being ordained, there had better be something VERY special about the person- special enough to convince the bishop that he shouldn’t pass this one up.

The priesthood has more theology behind it than the pastorate in non-Catholic denominations. The priest is a spouse of the Church, and he is to imitate Christ in a unique way (because Christ is the spouse of the Church). Just as Jesus denied himself to the point of suffering every pain imaginable and ultimately dying on the Cross, so must the priest deny himself totally for the Church. How can a man be totally devoted to the Church, and be totally devoted to his family at the same time? Since the Church sees fit to ordain married men in the East, and in certain special cases in the Latin Rite, it must be possible for some men to do this. I know I sure wouldn’t be able to- and I don’t know any priest who would be able to, or any husband and parent who I think would be able to. The best priests I have known have said many times to me how much they love celibacy, how much they respect it as a vocation, and how they couldn’t imagine doing all they do as a priest while trying to be a good husband and father. The best examples of husbands and fathers I have known have said the same thing about being a priest.

I know the Eastern Churches allow married priests and have done so for a very long time- perhaps as long as those Traditions have been around. I don’t know their reasons for doing so- I’m a Latin Catholic- there’s too much I still need to learn about my own Tradition to think very much about someone else’s Tradition (although I can certainly appreciate it). Celibacy is a beautiful vocation- and one that’s largely underappreciated in our culture today (even among faithful Catholics). Thankfully, the Church still greatly appreciates it- and it looks like it’ll be around for a very long time.

Imagine the following scenario:
A man who happens to be a priest is home alone with his child. The child falls and has life-threatening injuries. He needs someone to comfort him and take him to the emergency room. His mother isn’t around and nobody else is around to help, for some reason. Still this child’s life is in danger- he needs their undivided attention- and a good father will give it without question.

He takes the child to the emergency room (for whatever reason calling an ambulence won’t work- remember this is just an imaginary scenario- so we don’t complicate things, let’s just assume the son needs his father and nobody else will do). While on the way, they pass a car accident (yes, I’m stealing this example from the Fishers of Men Video and combining it with my own- it’s a wonderful example of the selflessness and dedication that a good priest and a good father shows and I highly recommend the video to people who are curious about the priesthood, or question some of the disciplines of the priesthood). A person is dying. He stops what he is doing- totally denies himself- and runs to the scene (much like the father who ran to where his injured son lay in the preceding paragraph) and gives the dying person the Sacraments. What if that priest had been the father trying to take his child to the emergency room? What kind of father would he be if he not only denied himself, but his own son- to save someone else? Our Father in Heaven did that, but somehow I don’t think he asks us to (he may test us as he did Abraham with Isaac, but I don’t think He ultimately asks us to make that sacrifice).
Some people are exceptional enough to be both a priest and a husband and father. In the cases of those who aren’t, somebody suffers because of it. The stereotypical “preacher’s kid”- the rebellious child who is nothing like what one might expect when raised under the teachings of their parents (who should be examples to the rest of the community) didn’t become a stereotype for nothing. I have known many of them. They can’t go on vacations because their dad works every weekend. They get caught smoking or drinking and there’s a huge scandal over it (when the kid may not have ever professed to have convictions against those things at all). They get sick of having “church people” over all the time for dinner, and going to their houses, and going on every retreat and youth group activity. The list can go on and on. I would be very careful if I were a bishop (and I am sure the bishops who ordain them are) before allowing a married man with a family to become a priest.
 
As another poster has pointed out, you are wrong here.

And I think that current Catholic teaching would agree with me that the word “vocation” needs to be used more broadly than the marriage/celibacy dichotomy.

You are reflecting centuries of traditional Catholic practice rather than formal theology, and in my opinion you’re providing a nice unintentional argument against that practice by showing how much it mixes up people’s theology in this regard.

Edwin
Actually, I’m not so certain that Church teaching would agree with you here. On this topic, it’s my understanding that Church teaching has been pretty consistant. It’s based on good theology as well as good practice. There are three vocations: marriage, priesthood, religious life. Period. Being a college professor, doctor, butcher, baker, or candlestick-maker may be a “calling”, or one may have natural gifts from God that would encourage such professions, but those things are just that - professions and are in a certain sense, optional.

My understanding of the term “vocation” (I say this because I am a simple layman and not in anyway a professional theologian - I’ll admit if I get something wrong here) in Catholic theology is that they are a sort of “root” state in this life and in the case of Holy Orders, in the afterlife as well. I may be mistaken, but I believe that one of these three states has been predestined for all of us. For one not to answer appropriately to which ever vocation God calls us leads us to not being as fulfilled and effective in them**. Even father- or mother-hood is an important and blessed state in life, but is still a subset (or at least should be) of the vocation of marriage. Scripture and common-sense shows us that married clergy are in principle acceptable, but not ideal.

P.S.
** I have this personal thesis that due to the highly selfish and lustful culture (which really just boils down to sin) that we live in here in the West, many folks who are called to priestly or religious life end up getting married or staying single, are dissatisfied and end up in divorce or a life filled with promiscuity and despair. Consequently, the marriage crisis, the shortage of Western priests, and the lack of religious in our society are all due to the same thing - selfishness. Thus, married clergy is not a solution to the shortage of vocations - an unselfish person who is open to the will of God, whatever that may be, is.
 
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