Ordination of Women

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Bluegoat said:
Well, a man can be married and then ordained.
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Now here is the difference - since he is not joining a religious order he will be ordaining into the permanent diaconate of the Secular Clergy which is a solemn promise. His marriage is a solemn vow. His Holy Orders are a solemn promises. I know many ecclesiastical communities are not going to want to hear this as they want Deacon so and so’s undivided attention but the marriage comes first that is why most times the wife and older children are also involved in parts of his formation.
 
Bluegoat…there was not a single laywoman or nun was doing the kind of work the priests did.

When you are living in the second poorest country in the world, without the infrastructure of an affluent and stratefied society, people live more by the basics.

The priests had to answer the door at night, to be available for whoever came to the door…they lived across the street from the tavern where there was a ruckus almost any night. To have a woman go out and put out a fight among rough men is pretty rare…more the exception than the rule.

We cannot defend ourselves against men under bondage of original sin. There is a moral order to being a woman, and we are not inferior to men.

It is not about having power. How many priests know they are called, chosen, and the priesthood was not a vocation they sought out on their own, it is not about power or control, or having status. The priesthood is a calling by God laid down well back into Jewish religion, and priests have always been men in Judeo Christianity.

We are seeing the effects of fatherless homes in America, and the effects on society are devastating. Father and mother are both needed.

A priest told me he does not think women have the physical abilities to fulfill all the duties of the priesthood and I strongly agree.

What is important is that we respond wholeheartedly to the vocation and life the Lord has called us, to grow in the cardinal virtues of faith, hope and charity, and to extend the presence in Christ in all who we are and do. Holiness is not monopolized by the clergy and they know there are always parishioners under their own roof who excel in faith and holiness beyond them.

Our righteousness is not found in ourselves or our gender, but the grace of faith in Christ.
 
KathleenGee said:
Bluegoat…there was not a single laywoman or nun was doing the kind of work the priests did.

When you are living in the second poorest country in the world, without the infrastructure of an affluent and stratefied society, people live more by the basics.

The priests had to answer the door at night, to be available for whoever came to the door…they lived across the street from the tavern where there was a ruckus almost any night. To have a woman go out and put out a fight among rough men is pretty rare…more the exception than the rule.

We cannot defend ourselves against men under bondage of original sin. There is a moral order to being a woman, and we are not inferior to men.

It is not about having power. How many priests know they are called, chosen, and the priesthood was not a vocation they sought out on their own, it is not about power or control, or having status. The priesthood is a calling by God laid down well back into Jewish religion, and priests have always been men in Judeo Christianity.

We are seeing the effects of fatherless homes in America, and the effects on society are devastating. Father and mother are both needed.

A priest told me he does not think women have the physical abilities to fulfill all the duties of the priesthood and I strongly agree.

What is important is that we respond wholeheartedly to the vocation and life the Lord has called us, to grow in the cardinal virtues of faith, hope and charity, and to extend the presence in Christ in all who we are and do. Holiness is not monopolized by the clergy and they know there are always parishioners under their own roof who excel in faith and holiness beyond them.

Our righteousness is not found in ourselves or our gender, but the grace of faith in Christ.
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I’m not even a supporter of WO, so I feel like I am on the wrong side here - but while I don’t dispute your experiences, I still think you are over-generalizing. Firstly, because not all male priests are cut out for the kind of work you are describing, but that doesn’t mean that they are not qualified to be priests, and even good ones. Some priests are called to mission work, others to monastic life, others to parishes, and others to academic life. They aren’t going to be brave or talented or even capable physically of the same things.

And I suppose I just don’t buy the women are delicate flowers stuff - maybe it was my time in the army; I knew women who were sailors, infantrymen, artillery sargents, and even a special ops soldier. I knew women who served in Afghanistan patrolling outside the wire. And I’ve even known women priests who did amazing work in really difficult parishes. So there is just really not a lot of convincing reasoning here for me.
 
Bluegoat said:
I’m not even a supporter of WO, so I feel like I am on the wrong side here - but while I don’t dispute your experiences, I still think you are over-generalizing. Firstly, because not all male priests are cut out for the kind of work you are describing, but that doesn’t mean that they are not qualified to be priests, and even good ones. Some priests are called to mission work, others to monastic life, others to parishes, and others to academic life. They aren’t going to be brave or talented or even capable physically of the same things.

And I suppose I just don’t buy the women are delicate flowers stuff - maybe it was my time in the army; I knew women who were sailors, infantrymen, artillery sargents, and even a special ops soldier. I knew women who served in Afghanistan patrolling outside the wire. And I’ve even known women priests who did amazing work in really difficult parishes. So there is just really not a lot of convincing reasoning here for me.
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Oh please. The only argument that needs to be understood is from Pope John Paul II - the Church has no authority to ordain women. Everything else posted here misses the point by a mile.

No authority means no authority. It doesn’t matter if women can kill others as good as the best men. That is not and should not be relevent - at all.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Oh please. The only argument that needs to be understood is from Pope John Paul II - the Church has no authority to ordain women. Everything else posted here misses the point by a mile.

No authority means no authority. It doesn’t matter if women can kill others as good as the best men. That is not and should not be relevent - at all.

Peace,
Ed
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If you want to comment, please read the thread. Your point doesn’t have anything to do with what Kathleen said, or my response to it.
 
Bluegoat said:
I’m not even a supporter of WO, so I feel like I am on the wrong side here - but while I don’t dispute your experiences, I still think you are over-generalizing. Firstly, because not all male priests are cut out for the kind of work you are describing, but that doesn’t mean that they are not qualified to be priests, and even good ones. Some priests are called to mission work, others to monastic life, others to parishes, and others to academic life. They aren’t going to be brave or talented or even capable physically of the same things.

And I suppose I just don’t buy the women are delicate flowers stuff - maybe it was my time in the army; I knew women who were sailors, infantrymen, artillery sargents, and even a special ops soldier. I knew women who served in Afghanistan patrolling outside the wire. And I’ve even known women priests who did amazing work in really difficult parishes. So there is just really not a lot of convincing reasoning here for me.
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I think the proper place for women in the situation described by the one Sister above who is a lay person is maybe a pastoral associate or missionary worker. It gives them the ability to help and assist in the counseling aspect, budgeting etc. and free up the priest to celebrate the Sacraments. I think this is a very academic discussion as most of us here are anti-WO so we should be very careful not to start biting each other’s heads off.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have put forward strong theological arguments against the ordination of women. What is the theological argument put forward by Anglican and Protestant churches for the ordination of women or have they ordained women solely on the basis of sex discrimination?
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Speaking of discrimination, how many male sisters and nuns do they have?

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
mark_a said:
Speaking of discrimination, how many male sisters and nuns do they have?

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
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I do not know the intent of your post. I am not going to attempt to infer what you mean. I would ask why men would want to be nuns or sisters?
 
I am glad to be a Catholic because the Church protects who I am, and doesn’t make me out to be a street sweeper…I saw Russian women in Soviet Union…that was the first in the 20th century to give…primarily male…the right to divorce by sheer will…the destruction of marriage by whimsy, self-serving…the original man…meaning a pun here…the man of original sin. Promiscuous and incapable of entering into a lifelong relationship with a woman he is capable of loving. I saw a picture of good women wearing nice clothes…like women here, and doing the work of men.

Personally, I don’t like seeing women in combat. They are doing it…they are Amazons in my mind…but I do not have the constitution to fight in a battlefield.

I see such a lack of femininity in our culture…a coarseness of women…vulgar…dress immodestly…I think the emphasis should be on women returning to their own sensibilities…but the paradigm is lost in the media culture…so the work is to be done in personal relationship.

I think of Maria Montessori and her insights into the dignity of the small child…I don’t think a man would have that sensitivity and insight as Montessori…I wish more women would be involved instead in working on re-establishing the innocence of the child, the foundation of prayer for society in union with the elderly…restoration of innocence of the child…woman best to promote the value and dignity of the child.

I know of some nuns who wanted to be priests. They got on a seminary board some how…giving their (name removed by moderator)ut on who should be admitted into the seminary or not…they made it known they wanted to be priests…The showdown came when they confronted the priests at some big meeting…they did not want to be spiritual mothers…they wanted to be spiritual fathers of some sort…and they wanted the end of the daily sacrifice of the Mass…blasphemed the holy priesthood…and were finally expelled. So much dissension for so many years by this small, but highly vocal group of women religious.

Cardinal Ratzinger, in the ‘Ratzinger Report’…said the greatest loss of women religious was found in the North American apostolic congregations…those who endured were primarily in the contemplative orders.

I think in modern times there is way too much blurring of roles…they predicted a unisex culture coming about…and so people now are too mixed up to even think of restoration of true femininity…the real casualty. I mean, where is the casualty of men…women want to be like men. And men are lost.

We are at a point in time the Lord truly needs to come to restore us to natural order. The Catholic Church is protecting me and helps me to be true to I am and how God made me. And I am on the same equal level to any priest or layman. We are all equal before the Lord.
 
edwest2 said:
Oh please. The only argument that needs to be understood is from Pope John Paul II - the Church has no authority to ordain women. Everything else posted here misses the point by a mile.

No authority means no authority. It doesn’t matter if women can kill others as good as the best men. That is not and should not be relevent - at all.

Peace,
Ed
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Actually, Ed, he says presbyteral ordination, not ordination in general. (But since presbyteral is prerequisite for episcopal, it rules out episcopal as well.)

He was very careful not to shut the door on the order of Deaconess, claiming it much more vague than it seems.

Further, 3 churches with valid sacraments have deaconsesses, and two of them ordain them as major orders, while the 3rd (Coptic Orthodox) waffle on whether it’s a consecration or minor orders ordination, but the form differs not at all between minor orders and mere consecration. Declaring it invalid would harm the negotiations with those churches for reunion.

Likewise, we can read that, in the 3rd C, according to the Apostolic Constitutions, the deaconesses had duty to mind the doors; that’s a subdeacon’s or acolyte’s task.

Further, Roman praxis, while well documented in the 7th C and later, was not the same as Eastern praxis, having abolished ordination of deaconesses centuries before, and merely consecrating them.

The first question is whether or not deaconesses were in major or minor orders. Rome considered subdeacons Major Orders; no other patriarchate did, nor does. But Rome also permits women to perform all but one task belonging to the minor orders: purification of the sacred vessels.

The second, and more important, question must be, “Does the Church need Deaconesses?”
A partial answer is that the Roman Church doesn’t so long as the mainstream of the Roman Catholics would see it as the first step to women as priests, nor as long as certain actions proper to the Subdeacon/Instituted Acolyte may be performed by lay women. The Eastern Churches in Union might find them particularly useful in some places in the Middle East. The Coptic Orthodox definitely find them useful for going places priests can’t, due to the predominantly Muslim culture of Egypt.
 
KathleenGee said:
I am glad to be a Catholic because the Church protects who I am, and doesn’t make me out to be a street sweeper…I saw Russian women in Soviet Union…that was the first in the 20th century to give…primarily male…the right to divorce by sheer will…the destruction of marriage by whimsy, self-serving…the original man…meaning a pun here…the man of original sin. Promiscuous and incapable of entering into a lifelong relationship with a woman he is capable of loving. I saw a picture of good women wearing nice clothes…like women here, and doing the work of men.

Personally, I don’t like seeing women in combat. They are doing it…they are Amazons in my mind…but I do not have the constitution to fight in a battlefield.

I see such a lack of femininity in our culture…a coarseness of women…vulgar…dress immodestly…I think the emphasis should be on women returning to their own sensibilities…but the paradigm is lost in the media culture…so the work is to be done in personal relationship.

I think of Maria Montessori and her insights into the dignity of the small child…I don’t think a man would have that sensitivity and insight as Montessori…I wish more women would be involved instead in working on re-establishing the innocence of the child, the foundation of prayer for society in union with the elderly…restoration of innocence of the child…woman best to promote the value and dignity of the child.

I know of some nuns who wanted to be priests. They got on a seminary board some how…giving their (name removed by moderator)ut on who should be admitted into the seminary or not…they made it known they wanted to be priests…The showdown came when they confronted the priests at some big meeting…they did not want to be spiritual mothers…they wanted to be spiritual fathers of some sort…and they wanted the end of the daily sacrifice of the Mass…blasphemed the holy priesthood…and were finally expelled. So much dissension for so many years by this small, but highly vocal group of women religious.

Cardinal Ratzinger, in the ‘Ratzinger Report’…said the greatest loss of women religious was found in the North American apostolic congregations…those who endured were primarily in the contemplative orders.

I think in modern times there is way too much blurring of roles…they predicted a unisex culture coming about…and so people now are too mixed up to even think of restoration of true femininity…the real casualty. I mean, where is the casualty of men…women want to be like men. And men are lost.

We are at a point in time the Lord truly needs to come to restore us to natural order. The Catholic Church is protecting me and helps me to be true to I am and how God made me. And I am on the same equal level to any priest or layman. We are all equal before the Lord.
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I don’t know Kathleen - it seems like you are talking about some kind of hyper-femininity to me. I do agree that culturally there is confusion about masculinity and femininity - both get denied, but then we also get these hyper-gendered images as well.

I don’t think most people would think of me as masculine - I am a stay at home mom, I’m involved in birth and breastfeeding advocacy, and I’m pretty girly really - on the other hand I was a soldier, and I spent my undergraduate degree in an area with very few women, and I have close male friends. ( I once had someone tell me I had a masculine mind - I also once had someone laugh at me when I told her I was writing a paper on feminism.) The female soldiers I know are not in any way manly either - I think of the lady had been an infanteer and went into special ops, who was a great mom, and a lady, and a good Christian as well. Tough, but women are tough, more so than men often.

And this same thinking is what keeps men out of professions where they do well and have a lot to offer- nursing, or teaching in lower elementary grades or pre-school. This last area is a real loss to us as a society I think (though I know a grade one teacher who is a man and also an infantry reservist.)

Are men and women different? Yes, but it isn’t a simple kind of difference.
 
Bluegoat said:
Different and ontologically different are not equivalent. I’m different from Oprah Winfrey in many ways, but not ontologically.
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Right. But you seemed to be unable to define the difference between men and women.

I did that for you. Well, again, not me. 😃
 
PRmerger said:
Right. But you seemed to be unable to define the difference between men and women.

I did that for you. Well, again, not me. 😃
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What you have not done is show how men and women are ontologically different, and yet part of the same species, and how the Incarnation applies to women as well as men if women are ontologically different from Christ.
 
Bluegoat said:
What you have not done is show how men and women are ontologically different, and yet part of the same species, and how the Incarnation applies to women as well as men if women are ontologically different from Christ.
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Did you read the link I provided?
 
Bluegoat,

Please know I do respect the life that you have lived as well as other women like yourself. And because of your experience, it only strengthens you as a woman.

I think the Roman Catholic priesthood is different in role and position even from an Orthodox’s because the Latin Rite is definitive and authoritative, and the demands of the Latin rite require a celibate priesthood. We all know that former clergy were married, and the church was rife with scandal and the uneducated.

The priests are also well aware that so many times it is women who come under false spirits and misdirection that can slide into the demonic. A man’s constitution does not have the degree of receptivity as a woman’s. A man called to the priesthood is basically emotionally independent, as are women religious.

What the Catholic Church says in its pastoral teachings is that woman is the protected gender.

About who can do what…I was given the liberty to go out on my own in the surrounding area of my living quarters in the missions…I could only go out in day light, I was never allowed to answer the front door. I was the youngest, and a female, and virgin, and was most protected by the Latin missionaries. But I would travel by foot all over the area, met many of the indigenous people. One day I came to a barrio…smoke around the huts, and there was a woman cooking with a white eye–cataracts. Her husband was an alcoholic sitting waiting to be fed. I began to speak to her. Others started coming out of their huts through the smoke…some had white eyes…completely covered by cataracts with their very dark skin…it was the poorest place I had gone to. But I felt God giving me His presence and strength in my heart and soul.

I went back to my compound, and then the two priests came in who, in the superior general opinion’s, was the best missionary team in the country. They developed a new form of evangelization and church building and were making alot of leeway in the communities outside of town. I told them I had just found my ‘mission’, and it was this place named after a skin disease…can’t remember it now… They looked at me startled and told me they could not handle it being there, and gave it up seeing the people – on their level – unable to be evangelized.

For me, it was a great opportunity to evangelize and meet Christ with them in their poverty and suffering. I wanted to have a laywoman with me, a nurse, so we could start. But no one. Then an African woman came forward highly motivated and wanted to help. But by then the colonialists had fled, and we all had a great sense of forboding…eventually this town and mission was destroyed except for our church.

The point is…as male and female, we all have different gifts…the priests’ gift was to share the Good News of Jesus Christ and to minister the sacraments. We had male deacons and brothers, many teachers and some nurses. I encountered and worked with women abandoned by men…and many times I just listened to them …and they came into the Church.

I could do things the priests could not do, who had no vision with some people. I brought them in and they brought them into the Body of Christ.
 
Bluelake…

Do you or yours – faith community – have devotion to Mary?
 
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