Origin of the Baptist Church

[boastinjesus]

1. I think the issue boils down to when that “inward change,” including the forgiveness of sins, actually occurs—during a “Sinner’s Prayer” or during Baptism.

I’m not arguing against a “circumcision of the heart.” I am saying the circumcision made without hands-the circumcision of Christ occurs during Baptism, as does the forgiveness of sins.

1. I never said one is saved without a change of heart. Scripture just doesn’t indicate that all the “inward” part must take place before baptism. Is the “inward” part complete without the forgiveness of sins???
2. Are babies condemned because they are not yet able to believe (at least as far as we know)?

Infants were brought into the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is more inclusive. The N.T. never says—now I know your infants were included under the Old Covenant; but now God has decided to exclude them. Prove to me that infants are excluded.

Gotta run–getting ready for house guests.

Peace to you,
Anna

I have added numbers beside a few of your points to make my response easier to follow, I hope. Forgive me if that’s against protocol…

1. I don’t think a “sinners prayer” saves anyone either. I would argue that those who are saved are saved “before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1), and that is effected at the moment when God changes their heart. Then we are called to respond in obedience, ie repentance, baptism, seeking to live a holy life.
2. Is someone forgiven with baptism apart from repentance / belief?
3. Was everyone circumcized in the Old Covenant saved? I would argue, that no it was a national covenant. I would also argue that per Jer. and other verses listed previously that everyone in the New Covenant is saved. That’s why we would only give the covenant sign to those whom have shown evidence of the inward change.

Last question: Does the Bible ever use “baptize” in any other sense than other than what we think of when we talk about the sacrament of baptism? For example, when Jeus said in Luke 12:50 I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!

I gotta take my son to a soccer game. I hope you enjoyed your house guests.

 

[CopticChristian]

So was everyone circumcized under the Old Covenant saved?

Do you still beat your wife?

You are begging the question. To answer the above you must admit you beat your wife.

You ask if everyone is saved? I must then admit to your paradigm of “saved”. I do not adhere to this paradigm.

Paul says there are those in the Covenant of the Covenant and those outside the Covenant of the Covenant. Circumcision, Paul says guarantees nothing. I would say the same is true for Baptism. There is no guarantee. This is why Paul made the point to the Jews in the Old Covenant, circumcised, believing they were descendants of Abraham,and Paul corrected their heritage to Adam. Paul makes this point

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Recall the stiff neck people…they looked down on Gentiles…but Paul points out to the Jew that knew the Old Testament and deploys a portion of Psalm…

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

The Jew knew the entirety of Psalm 53

4Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

and had to realize that in the Covenant there were those that did evil and those that were with God. This is true today. He also pointed out that being outside the Covenant being circumcised of the heart, the gentile did what the law required because God is impartial. God is God of all.

There are those that are Baptized, not realizing that they are in the New Covenant, believing that they are separate and if they do what the Covenant requires without full knowledge then it is up to God to decide, not you or I.

Why don’t you get off your “who is saved” pedastal and start asking yourself where you stand in the Covenant. I do not know who is saved and it has never been anything I am interested in. I am interested in whether or not someone knows the truth and seeks the Kingdom with full knowledge. This saved thing is an infantile, adolescent approach to Christianity. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child…Grow up.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have added numbers beside a few of your points to make my response easier to follow, I hope. Forgive me if that’s against protocol…

1. I don’t think a “sinners prayer” saves anyone either. I would argue that those who are saved are saved “before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1), and that is effected at the moment when God changes their heart. Then we are called to respond in obedience, ie repentance, baptism, seeking to live a holy life.
2. Is someone forgiven with baptism apart from repentance / belief?
3. Was everyone circumcized in the Old Covenant saved? I would argue, that no it was a national covenant. I would also argue that per Jer. and other verses listed previously that everyone in the New Covenant is saved. That’s why we would only give the covenant sign to those whom have shown evidence of the inward change.

Last question: Does the Bible ever use “baptize” in any other sense than other than what we think of when we talk about the sacrament of baptism? For example, when Jeus said in Luke 12:50 I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!

I gotta take my son to a soccer game. I hope you enjoyed your house guests.

I got saved, you got saved, everyone has to get saved, who got saved, we got saved, why don’t you forget about arguing about “saved”. Try watching extreme couponing and see what it is to get “savings”. This entire dialogue about who, what, when, where is saved is a waste of time. This is childish babble. Your son’s soccer game and house guests are more interesting.

 

[boastinjesus]

Do you still beat your wife?

You are begging the question. To answer the above you must admit you beat your wife.

You ask if everyone is saved? I must then admit to your paradigm of “saved”. I do not adhere to this paradigm.

Paul says there are those in the Covenant of the Covenant and those outside the Covenant of the Covenant. Circumcision, Paul says guarantees nothing. I would say the same is true for Baptism. There is no guarantee. This is why Paul made the point to the Jews in the Old Covenant, circumcised, believing they were descendants of Abraham,and Paul corrected their heritage to Adam. Paul makes this point

Recall the stiff neck people…they looked down on Gentiles…but Paul points out to the Jew that knew the Old Testament and deploys a portion of Psalm…

The Jew knew the entirety of Psalm 53

and had to realize that in the Covenant there were those that did evil and those that were with God. This is true today. He also pointed out that being outside the Covenant being circumcised of the heart, the gentile did what the law required because God is impartial. God is God of all.

There are those that are Baptized, not realizing that they are in the New Covenant, believing that they are separate and if they do what the Covenant requires without full knowledge then it is up to God to decide, not you or I.

Why don’t you get off your “who is saved” pedastal and start asking yourself where you stand in the Covenant. I do not know who is saved and it has never been anything I am interested in. I am interested in whether or not someone knows the truth and seeks the Kingdom with full knowledge. This saved thing is an infantile, adolescent approach to Christianity. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child…Grow up.

I intended no trick question, just trying to figure out what being baptized effectually does for you.

My “who is saved” “pedastal” comes from a desire to please God. Sorry if that’s dumb…

I’ll stop posting…

 

[CopticChristian]

I intended no trick question, just trying to figure out what being baptized effectually does for you.

My “who is saved” “pedastal” comes from a desire to please God. Sorry if that’s dumb…

I’ll stop posting…

What does Baptism do for you. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church teaches that you are born again, removing original sin, through Baptism and infused with the gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity, consistent with Scripture, Tradition, and teaching of the Magesterium.

How does “who is saved” inquiry please God? I never said it was dumb. You may stop posting if you wish. You may want to ask direct questions, get direct answers and we all learn.

Do you choose not to learn?