That clarifies things. If only Luther, Calvin, and their colleagues had avoided the inflamatory term “Antichrist”.
Just to quibble, I would argue that the split between Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Christians was equally damaging, if not more so. Without that completely unnecessary source of discord and persecution, Christians could have banded together to fight off the seventh-century Muslim invaders and saved a lot of lives and souls from destruction.
The presence of abuses, offensive behaviour, and corruption are no justification for inventing and spreading new doctrines, particularly Scripture alone and private judgment. If such were the case, perhaps I should get some friends together and start a Treborian Church in response to the crimes, sins, and scandals involved in the child sex abuse, dissent, and modernism within the Catholic Church.
OK. I think some mean it as “protesting the Catholic Church”. There are, of course, some who do this, and sometimes in an anti-Catholic way, but most protestant laity don’t view their faith in such a way.
In terms of pulpit and altar unity, of course, I agree with you.
I don’t know, the term “ecclesial communites” certainly ruffled some feathers. lol
And well you should, and I don’t blame you. I respond as stridently when Lutherans are accused of believing things we do not - consubstantiation, OSAS, total rejection of Tradition, etc. One thing I try to do, however, is attempt to distinguish between ignorance
So, wouldn’t dialogue be furthered by eliminating polemical terms such as these? A number of years back, I started a thread postulating that the term anti-Christ is a dated claim regarding the papacy, and that Lutherans, while not compromising on doctrine, could easily remove the term from the confessions.
As a starting place, I look at the model of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. Now, extreme traditionalists on both sides complain their own side gave in, but I see it as an excellent approach where, as far as it goes, both sides came to convergence on justification without one side of the other having to “submit”. Not a compromise, but a convergence.
Yeah, I thought about that, too.
I think one has to look at the times, and not try to compare them to the present, but just as an anology, if the Church continued to turn a blind eye to these abuses, and indeed excommunicated and threatened with death those who protested against them, it seems that someone who was excommunicated might very well move in that direction.
In my opinion and understanding the notion of Anti-Christ is not tossed around much. I learned my Faith and encountered the Anti-Christ by those professing to have gained some secret knowledge from Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli and others. I find this discussion about the Anti-Christ peculiarly Protestant in nature. You may want to review the following:
There was a counterreformation inside the Church as it should be and the start of new religion originating in white europe stating itslef to have received revalation from God, antithetical to truths revealed by the Church and with an attempt to destroy and supersede that from whence they came.
This is from your website you provided. Dialogue is good. The East is coming to the West and as far as any one Lutheran body, how many Lutheran bodies do we need to agree to dialogue that suits all Lutherans?
I kind of see it like the laws of Physics. If you throw a handful of rocks in the air, they are dispersed for a time, they travel apart from the earth as if they are not joined to it, but in the end the laws of nature prevail and the rocks, one by one return because of the law of gravity. This of course does not happen in a vacuum. Since we do not live in a vacuum we can be sure that this will occur.
I believe that is why our government allows dissent but frowns on speech to overthrow the government. Change the system within.
Your judgement as to what you believe to know about the intentions of all “obsession” is interesting. I agree that the issue as it regards this post is not the intent. It points to the problem as you can understand. The end of my post is as follows:
What I got is what you read and your response follows the thread absent the original request. It suggests that your conclusion is based on what you think may be relevant and may not be relavant in light of what I asked. This underscores our dilema in dialogue.
While the LWF represents the vast number of Lutheran synods, there are others, such as mine, that are not members. Dialogue should take place where it is welcome and profitable. For example, the USCCB is in constant dialogue with both the ELCA and LCMS as an ongoing event here in America. This is happening on a national/regional basis in other countries too.
You are misunderstood. I’m passing judgment on no one. It’s the seemingly endless complaints of “anti-Catholicism” whether real or imagined that is silly. Of course this is my opinion, but I don’t think it’s uncommon. Though you know nothing about me. Pass judgment as you wish.
You must not have been here very long to know that the word anti-Catholic is floated around rather liberally here and it’s enough to annoy and leave people with a bad taste in their mouth. Not to mention it makes RCs appear arrogant and paranoid (which I know they are not). Instead of people complaining about people being anti-Catholic why not try to fix the issue? This isnt directed at you per se, but it does your church a great disservice when the word is slung around so liberally. That’s all. Hi Andrew,You are misunderstood. I’m passing judgment on no one. It’s the seemingly endless complaints of “anti-Catholicism” whether real or imagined that is silly. Of course this is my opinion, but I don’t think it’s uncommon. Though you know nothing about me. Pass judgment as you wish.
In Christ,
Andrew
I am paranoid, I don’t think I am arrogant. My Paranoia is magnified because I see Jews being slandered and that is why we have
Since some might in fact be after you, that doesn’t make you paranoid. I can’t argue your point, and in fact, agree. It is a sad thing that Christians would be targeted in this way.
We are in agreement on this, Jon. I think the problem has been improving over the past several months. In the past though, I have taken long sabbaticals from here after having been smeared as “anti-Catholic” for simply disagreeing with RCC doctrine or practice. I think true anti-Catholicism (outright hatred for Catholics) is far less common than many of us actually think. Granted, I’m sure in some areas of the world there is a real anti-Catholicism.
) the word at anyone who believes differently is going to solve any problems. I think Christ said something about bearing crosses, turning cheeks, praying for enemies (though I hope I’m not classified as one! 
) and things like that. Calling someone to task is quite different from labeling them a rabid anti-Catholic. 
I will the first to admit that it is not a lesson solely for RCs to learn, but it’s something all of us need to learn sooner or later.
I can only speak for myself. I wouldn’t characterize it as “bitter hatred of Protestantism.” And it’s not ‘Luther and Calvin that I can’t seem to let drop,’ though they are a part of it. It’s resentment at having been lied to for all the years of my life up until my early 20s when I left Christianity and became an agnostic, then an atheist. I grew up hearing that “the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and the Pope is the Antichrist” from my Sunday school teachers and from the pulpit. That was drilled into me, every Wednesday night and Sunday, along with all the other reasons why I should hate Catholics: they worshipped idols, they worshipped Mary, they prayed to “dead people,” they weren’t Christian, they were going to hell unless they left the Whore and became Protestant, preferably Baptist. And more. We regularly beat up the Church using her own book, the Bible.
Great minds think alike
I see what you mean. But Luther wasn’t excommunicated because he was opposing sin in the Church. Here you can find a list of the numerous cases, fifty in all, of Catholic doctrines and disciplines which Luther thought should be gotten rid of.
Let us pray for the ultimate triumph of the biblically and historically orthodox ELCA Lutherans, as few as they may feel themselves to be now!
I have seen this often. I have seen and cannot find the post on the Church of England demanding allegiance to the queen. Anyone know where that is?