Original sin or Personal sin

[fhansen]

I think we talked about this and I said you that only human nature of Lord Jesus died on cross. How do you think a self-exist die? Do you really think that God Was dead for three days? You said death means separation between body and soul; That’s O.K but God is simple and we can’t imagine 2 parts in him, to separation between them means death.(Exuse me: My Language is not English!)

The Son simply is God.
**“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form…” **Col 2:9
"For God became man so that men might become gods". St Athanasius

 

[thenobes]

Dear fhansen

My problem is not on forgiveness. My problems is that God let a sinless one suffers and dies for paying price of sins of others.It is absolutely his love to us, But problem is on God’s perfect justice.

The acceptance of Christ’s death for us is temporary until we repent and live a life that shows a death to self.

But the possibility of living such a life is impossible without being “in Christ”. We have to accept baptism into His life and death, a pledge to keep our consciences clear through Jesus Christ.

Peace
Steve

 

[javid]

The Son simply is God.
**“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form…” **Col 2:9
"For God became man so that men might become gods". St Athanasius

Dear fhansen

We discussed on it, before. What you quoted is on Incarnation and according to incarnation, Lord Jesus has two natures: Divine and human. Absolutely Divine nature is immortal, And Lord Jesus died in his human nature.

In addition: This does not solve the problem: He let the sinless one pay price instead of sinner ones, and just he was the sinless one! Again: It is love, but how about the justice?

 

[javid]

The acceptance of Christ’s death for us is temporary until we repent and live a life that shows a death to self.

But the possibility of living such a life is impossible without being “in Christ”. We have to accept baptism into His life and death, a pledge to keep our consciences clear through Jesus Christ.

Peace
Steve

Dear thenobes

Is this a solution to my problem? I don’t think so,

 

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

We discussed on it, before. What you quoted is on Incarnation and according to incarnation, Lord Jesus has two natures: Divine and human. Absolutely Divine nature is immortal, And Lord Jesus died in his human nature.

In addition: This does not solve the problem: He let the sinless one pay price instead of sinner ones, and just he was the sinless one! Again: It is love, but how about the justice?

If you agree that *love *caused the Father and the Son to will the Son’s sacrifice, then a better question should be: Is there any greater reason to act than out of love? Is there any compelling reason not to act out of love?

 

[javid]

If you agree that *love *caused the Father and the Son to will the Son’s sacrifice, then a better question should be: Is there any greater reason to act than out of love? Is there any compelling reason not to act out of love?

Dear fhansen

What god does is justly, so we must explain how this was so, even if God’s love can explain it.

 

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

What god does is justly, so we must explain how this was so, even if God’s love can explain it.

I cannot see how you can think that forgiving someone is unjust-or why it should be wrong in any case. And this is exactly what God did from the cross when He forgave His tormentors as they we’re torturing and killing Him.

 

[javid]

I cannot see how you can think that forgiving someone is unjust-or why it should be wrong in any case. And this is exactly what God did from the cross when He forgave His tormentors as they we’re torturing and killing Him.

And I cannot see how you can think my problem is forgiving. I explained the problem, several times!

 

[fhansen]

And I cannot see how you can think my problem is forgiving. I explained the problem, several times!

It is just to forgive-because it is good to forgive. And God the Son’s act of self-sacrifice was an act-a demonstration-of sheer forgiveness in the face of the sin being committed against Him. He allowed Himself to be crucified, and then raised Himself up in three days. And He never once ceased to exist in those three days, even as the body which He assumed was dead, proving, with the resurrection, His power of life over death so we may now know that the dead will rise again. The entire Atonement is all about the love and mercy and goodness of God.

The reason that the most truly innocent One in the universe (God), should suffer death is to prove the utter sinfulness of man, our rejection of light in favor of darkness, so we may become convicted as we look at what we’ve done, as we look upon the beautiful and perfect One we’ve slain, the righteous being killed by the unrighteousness:* righteousness put to death by unrighteousness-*and come to see for ourselves the true nature of human unrighteousness, of the futility and wrongness of man being separated from God, so that we may repent and turn back to Him again, made possible by our newly acquired knowledge of His very existence and of His forgiveness in spite of our unreasonable will to be rid of Him, the only true and authentic source of the goodness we all desire.

 

[javid]

It is just to forgive-because it is good to forgive. And God the Son’s act of self-sacrifice was an act-a demonstration-of sheer forgiveness in the face of the sin being committed against Him. He allowed Himself to be crucified, and then raised Himself up in three days. And He never once ceased to exist in those three days, even as the body which He assumed was dead, proving, with the resurrection, His power of life over death so we may now know that the dead will rise again. The entire Atonement is all about the love and mercy and goodness of God.

The reason that the most truly innocent One in the universe (God), should suffer death is to prove the utter sinfulness of man, our rejection of light in favor of darkness, so we may become convicted as we look at what we’ve done, as we look upon the beautiful and perfect One we’ve slain, the righteous being killed by the unrighteousness:* righteousness put to death by unrighteousness-*and come to see for ourselves the true nature of human unrighteousness, of the futility and wrongness of man being separated from God, so that we may repent and turn back to Him again, made possible by our newly acquired knowledge of His very existence and of His forgiveness in spite of our unreasonable will to be rid of Him, the only true and authentic source of the goodness we all desire.

I never said forgiving is not just! I don’t know why you do not see the problem.

 

[fhansen]

I never said forgiving is not just! I don’t know why you do not see the problem.

The problem is that God, Himself, determined-He willed-to take on this suffering. The will of the Father and the Son are not divided; they are one! God, the Son, couldn’t be forced to do something against His will. Jesus suffered and died so we could know His love.

 

[javid]

The problem is that God, Himself, determined-He willed-to take on this suffering. The will of the Father and the Son are not divided; they are one! God, the Son, couldn’t be forced to do something against His will. Jesus suffered and died so we could know His love.

Dear fhansen

You just try to turn it to love! Does Divine Justice let a lover sinless give price of sins instead of a loved sinner?

And I don’t want talk on immortality of God, again.

 

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

You just try to turn it to love! .

Yes!! Love is what the whole thing is about! God suffered and died as a human-at the hands of sinful man-to show us His love! Once we recognize Jesus as God, then we know that God paid the price as a matter of self-revelation.

 

[javid]

Yes!! Love is what the whole thing is about! God suffered and died as a human-at the hands of sinful man-to show us His love! Once we recognize Jesus as God, then we know that God paid the price as a matter of self-revelation.

OK sir. Thank you. But my problem is on justice.

 

[fhansen]

OK sir. Thank you. But my problem is on justice.

But with your line of thought you seem bent on denying God the right and ability to experience human suffering and death for the purpose of revealing the extent of His love.

 

[javid]

But with your line of thought you seem bent on denying God the right and ability to experience human suffering and death for the purpose of revealing the extent of His love.

Dear fhansen

I deny nothing in God. I just looking for a reasonable faith.

 

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

I deny nothing in God. I just looking for a reasonable faith.

But why is it unjust for God to willingly suffer and die to demonstrate His love and forgiveness of man? The Atonement is God’s* act of forgiveness*; the creator of the universe forgiving the sin of His creation as it’s directly committing the worst offense against Him possible. Was it unjust for man to hate God, to want to be rid of Him? Yes, it’s both unjust and unreasonable-and foolish. And God forgave it, from the cross, all the while loving man to the end, desiring to convince us of our waywardness so that we’ll turn back to Him. The Atonement is God’s love in action, taking sin upon Himself, overlooking the strict demands of justice so that the ultimate justice, love, might become our justice, our righteousness, our perfection, as it is His.

 

[javid]

But why is it unjust for God to willingly suffer and die to demonstrate His love and forgiveness of man? The Atonement is God’s* act of forgiveness*; the creator of the universe forgiving the sin of His creation as it’s directly committing the worst offense against Him possible. Was it unjust for man to hate God, to want to be rid of Him? Yes, it’s both unjust and unreasonable-and foolish. And God forgave it, from the cross, all the while loving man to the end, desiring to convince us of our waywardness so that we’ll turn back to Him. The Atonement is God’s love in action, taking sin upon Himself, overlooking the strict demands of justice so that the ultimate justice, love, might become our justice, our righteousness, our perfection, as it is His.

Dear fhansen

I explained several times, what is unjust! I said forgiveness is just. I said if God in death of his only begotten son, opened the way of salvation, it is just. What is unjust is that a sinless one give price instead on sinner ones, even if he loves the sinners.

At the beginning of this thread I asked: " if some one bother you, and the judge says I will be punished instead of him or he says my son will be punished instead of him; Do you think it is justly? If yes, say me how! He didn’t punish the guilty one and just bothered another one who didn’t bother you!" You are just saying “it is love. it is love.” OK sir, it is love, but my problem is justice.

You do not answer me, please answer my problem, if you want help me. I know God is love, I know he loved us, I know God can forgive us, etc. But my problem is on paying price: God let a sinless one give price of sins instead of sinners.

 

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

I explained several times, what is unjust! I said forgiveness is just. I said if God in death of his only begotten son, opened the way of salvation, it is just. What is unjust is that a sinless one give price instead on sinner ones, even if he loves the sinners.

At the beginning of this thread I asked: " if some one bother you, and the judge says I will be punished instead of him or he says my son will be punished instead of him; Do you think it is justly? If yes, say me how! He didn’t punish the guilty one and just bothered another one who didn’t bother you!" You are just saying “it is love. it is love.” OK sir, it is love, but my problem is justice.

You do not answer me, please answer my problem, if you want help me. I know God is love, I know he loved us, I know God can forgive us, etc. But my problem is on paying price: God let a sinless one give price of sins instead of sinners.

But that’s what I’ve been trying to get at, I think. You’ve been asking how it is just-and reasonable-to believe that God would punish or allow to be punished a sinless one for the sins of another. But this brings us to the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is not only the Son of God; He’s God the Son. So God didn’t merely let Jesus to be punished for our sins; rather, through Jesus, God, Himself, takes on the punishment. And if, because of His love for us and His knowledge of our lost and hopeless condition, which cannot improve without His help, He undertakes to right our unjust condition Himself, I don’t know why that would be unreasonable.

God’s overall purpose in all of this from creation through the Fall of man, through His dealings with His chosen people, and through the advent and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, is to* perfect His creation*, to gradually reveal Himself to an obstinate species, as they’ve been prepared and the time is ripe, endeavoring to draw them, without coercion, into alignment with His perfect will. In fact, the Church teaches that God created His world “in statu viae”, in a “state of journeying” to perfection. And He’s willing to do whatever it takes to achieve His ends short of forcing His will upon us, even sacrificing Himself in a way we can identify with, in human form, so we doubters may come to know of His sincerity, kindness, goodness, mercy, humility, even, and love. God is the opposite of the human concept of God. To the extent that we play God, which we do in our fallen state in many ways, large and small, throughout each day, we’re aloof, superior, arrogant, dominating, selfish, and proud. God has no need for that. And He proved it especially well on the cross.

 

[Vico]

For the idea of justice: since Jesus is true God and man is, he was able to pay the debt due justice for all mankind. Just as Adam by personal sin brought death into the world, and by death sin, for all mankind. The creed expresses this with action:

“who for us men and for our salvation, came down, took flesh, was made man; and suffered.”

The Council of Trent declared the son a propitiator:Whence it came to pass, that the Heavenly Father, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1, 3), when that blessed fullness of the time was come (Galatians 4:4) sent unto men Jesus Christ, His own Son who had been, both before the Law and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised, that He might both redeem the Jews, who were under the Law and that the Gentiles who followed not after justice might attain to justice and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God had proposed as a propitiator, through faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world (I John ii, 2).