V
Vico
Guest
How can you know that? God know who will be saved, but that is only final after the moment of death, and you do not know the future.
- Status
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hi Ed,
It seems to me that sometimes people are head-set on finding differences when there are essentially none. Yes, scripturally and doctrinally speaking, there is only one path. On the other hand, you have taken a different path in life than I have, and so has every single person reading this. None of us has the same life experiences.
On this thread, we have discussed Baptism by desire. Certainly, a person whose Baptism is by desire has taken a different path than a cradle Catholic. They have taken different paths. On the other hand, all people come to the Father through Christ. We know this, correct? As a priest once told us at a Bible study (paraphrased), “even those who enter heaven after having lived their lives in a different religion enter through Christ”.
So, is it all one big path or a bunch of little paths? Are we so caught up in words that we cannot see a unity in following Christ? And yet, there are people so bold as to say that Oprah does not follow Christ? Is this by her own words, or is it from a judgmental critic?
Personally, I know nothing of Oprah’s spirituality. What I do know is this:
“Look, see what happens when I point my finger like this? (my favorite Italian Sister holds her hand like a gun) Look, there are three fingers pointing back at me.”
Please, Ed, there is a place for protectionism, but protectionism does not have to be judgmental. For what its worth: love and accept the accusers, but please don’t support them, they are not reflecting a God who is infinitely merciful. As our Pope Emeritus said, let’s look for harmony.
Division over the little stuff is a protestant thing, right?
God Bless
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Right, and after the moment of death it is too late.
How do I know?
I read about how God is looking for us, searching for the lost sheep, being the “hound of heaven” - but when it comes to me, I’m an exception. I try to get closer to him, he steps away and says “nope” Every attempt I did to get closer to God has failed.
An example: I’ll go to a healing service, with a prominent healer. Miracles occur all around me (and I’m happy for them).
OTHER people get healed. I don’t. My son doesn’t. God passes me by.
I even carry my son to the healer, humbling begging Jesus to have mercy on my son, and the healer places his hands on my son. No healing occurred.
O
o_mlly
Guest
When presented with a moral decision, a decision that has good or bad outcomes, how free are we to choose? I offer three possibilities and three theologies. In the presence of a decision to do good or bad, human are 1) free to choose, neither being influenced by grace or evil (Pelagius), 2) not free, but propelled to evil (Augustine), and 3) not free, but overpowered by grace (Rahner).
St. Augustine’s response to Pelagius’ doctrine that humans freely choose evil, says that human beings do not ever enjoy a condition of pure indifference in the exercise of freedom. Rather the corruption of human nature by sin entails a predisposition to evil, a bias toward it, which precedes and forms choice. Rahner argues that the indwelling grace inherent in our nature is the stronger force. For Rahner, original sin is a reality, but it is never equal to the lure of transcendence . Original grace is more powerful. The theologies seem to contradict, but I believe all three can be synthesized.
Augustine tells us that human nature changed as a result of the Fall, was corrupted by it, and is now *inclined *to sin. But what was the nature during the Fall? It seems to me that human nature must have been only open to sin before the Fall.
While Rahner’s theology of grace does not depend on a change in human nature, it does stipulate that we are less free to sin than the doctrines of either Pelagius or Augustine. A sinful act, according to Rahner, is all the more culpable because we are not completely free to sin, but must, in the first moment, overcome the overpowering “supernatural existential” impelling us to do good. Having rejected natural grace, we are now at Pelagius’s free-to-choose location, and then, in the second moment, we choose to sin. Rahner would have us struggle to sin, whereas Augustine has us struggle to be good. Pelagius says it is an even bet.
I am more inclined to the Catholic, Lutheran, Augustinian, and Pauline formulations of grace than the Rahnerian. But the self-referential bias of existentialism may offer a way to synthesize these doctrines. Perhaps Rahner’s “supernatural existential” was, at the time of his exposition on grace, actualized such that he felt grace as propelling him to do good at all times. St. Paul call himself the “chief of sinners” (1 Timothy 1:16). Augustine confessed himself as a past prolific sinner. Historians note Luther as an overly scrupulous sinner. God’s grace is a potential in all of us. But in actualizing, experiencing our potential, Paul, Augsutine (and I) are not as far along as Pelagius, who, himself, falls short of Rahner. We all admit to the power of grace, agree as to its incidence, but differ in our experience of its power.
E
edwest2
Guest
Thank you for your polite response. Oprah is promoting New Age approaches to God/god. This is not little stuff.Hi Ed,
It seems to me that sometimes people are head-set on finding differences when there are essentially none. Yes, scripturally and doctrinally speaking, there is only one path. On the other hand, you have taken a different path in life than I have, and so has every single person reading this. None of us has the same life experiences.
On this thread, we have discussed Baptism by desire. Certainly, a person whose Baptism is by desire has taken a different path than a cradle Catholic. They have taken different paths. On the other hand, all people come to the Father through Christ. We know this, correct? As a priest once told us at a Bible study (paraphrased), “even those who enter heaven after having lived their lives in a different religion enter through Christ”.
So, is it all one big path or a bunch of little paths? Are we so caught up in words that we cannot see a unity in following Christ? And yet, there are people so bold as to say that Oprah does not follow Christ? Is this by her own words, or is it from a judgmental critic?
Personally, I know nothing of Oprah’s spirituality. What I do know is this:
“Look, see what happens when I point my finger like this? (my favorite Italian Sister holds her hand like a gun) Look, there are three fingers pointing back at me.”
Please, Ed, there is a place for protectionism, but protectionism does not have to be judgmental. For what its worth: love and accept the accusers, but please don’t support them, they are not reflecting a God who is infinitely merciful. As our Pope Emeritus said, let’s look for harmony.
Division over the little stuff is a protestant thing, right?
God Bless
If you or I had our own TV show and the same audience… Anyway, the Bible tells us God made us all different. Life experiences are different but we can’t afford distorted truth.
Best,
Ed
J
joseie
Guest
Dear BobCathoic,
If what you are writing is genuine there is a fundamental mistake in your whole concept about God and about this life.This is surprising because it is seen that you are in CAF since several years and made a large no.of postings and naturally would have seen the views of experts and of the Church in a variety of subjects but yet failed to grasp some basic knowledge about God and about his intentions as revealed to us.Anyway I am proceeding taking it as genuine.
The first thing to be kept always in our mind is the purpose of our creation. There is only one purpose namely to know God and worship him.All other things are subsidiary.Job,illness of son,suffering ,wealth ,health etc. are insignificant in this regard.Once you understand this position the rest is easy.To say that since God has not given me a good job,did not heal ilness etc.,God has abandoned me ,look silly. See what happened to Job,Tobit etc.You were not created for this. Before your creation God did not assure anybody that you will be perfectly Ok here.But wait,he is merciful also.Remember that he sent his son to save and redeem us.Be thankful to God for having given us this life ,this wonderful and beautiful world to live in and a chance to know about him.Once you reach this position ,surprises will be waiting for you and you will experience how kind and merciful he is.You will feel that God is specially concerned about you and is giving favours which you don’t even deserve.This is from my own experience. Be in complete submission to God and I am sure you will also get similar experience.
If what you are writing is genuine there is a fundamental mistake in your whole concept about God and about this life.This is surprising because it is seen that you are in CAF since several years and made a large no.of postings and naturally would have seen the views of experts and of the Church in a variety of subjects but yet failed to grasp some basic knowledge about God and about his intentions as revealed to us.Anyway I am proceeding taking it as genuine.
The first thing to be kept always in our mind is the purpose of our creation. There is only one purpose namely to know God and worship him.All other things are subsidiary.Job,illness of son,suffering ,wealth ,health etc. are insignificant in this regard.Once you understand this position the rest is easy.To say that since God has not given me a good job,did not heal ilness etc.,God has abandoned me ,look silly. See what happened to Job,Tobit etc.You were not created for this. Before your creation God did not assure anybody that you will be perfectly Ok here.But wait,he is merciful also.Remember that he sent his son to save and redeem us.Be thankful to God for having given us this life ,this wonderful and beautiful world to live in and a chance to know about him.Once you reach this position ,surprises will be waiting for you and you will experience how kind and merciful he is.You will feel that God is specially concerned about you and is giving favours which you don’t even deserve.This is from my own experience. Be in complete submission to God and I am sure you will also get similar experience.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
The purpose is to suffer.
And if God plays hard to get, then what? Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed.
God cares about the spiritual so much, that the temporal is an afterthought at best. That’s why he tells us to take care of the temporal because He doesn’t want to.
I don’t take comfort or joy in other’s sufferings. I’m not a sadist.
I’m not thankful for having a life, it means carrying the cross.
A chance that is not guaranteed.
V
Vico
Guest
One cannot expect God to heal them physically. Even with the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, if there is any physical healing, it would only occur secondarily from the spiritual healing. God does not force grace upon us, although it is given freely, it requires our cooperation. It brings specific strength to overcome temptations.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Only if it is in God’s will.
If it is not in God’s will, game over. One never will get healed.
God’s will is capricious and arbitrary.
Because the spiritual is so far more important to God that temporal needs are a distant second (i.e. unimportant)
O
OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning,
o_milly, you are always such a Godsend. One of these days, I need to pick up something written by Rahner and read it all the way through.
Yes, Pelagius seems to have diminished the pull of desire, but it still seems to me that the “propulsion” is not to sin itself (turn from God), but to have a desire fulfilled. Since the desires in themselves are not bad (Aquinas, right?) the human always seeks to do what he thinks is good.
Therefore, to me the inclination to sin is only the case if sin is defined as “unwittingly doing harm or turning from God”. The human, in my view, has absolutely no inclination to turn from God when fully aware and not blinded by strong desire or resentment.
I agree with you completely that all of these theologians are speaking from personal experience. I know little of the lives of Aquinas, Rahner, and Pelagius, but I do know that Augustine held onto self-condemnation for some of his past sins and choices, and that aspect seemed to have colored his anthropology in a somewhat negative direction, even though he made some statements that I find are the most profoundly positive of any Christian I have ever read.
I am also convinced that there is plenty of room for differences on the matter. The negativity that influenced Augustine is part of our good nature, there is a place for negativity. We can pray for the grace to overcome.
Thank you, I am always grateful!
O
OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning Bob,
Have you heard of the Linn’s Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God? It’s a really great book.
Do you want pain?
“I am feeling frustrated”, “I am thinking that God doesn’t like me.” “I am very depressed and discouraged.” These are all observations of our feelings and thoughts. If we find ourselves judging those feelings and thoughts, we can observe the judging. “I am thinking that God does not like me, and I am judging myself as bad because of that”.
Oh yes, Jesus calls us not to judge! Observe again: “I am judging myself about judging.”
If we can come from a place of openness and infinite compassion, which is found in the silence, we can observe all of these things and not be slaves to our human compulsions, emotions, thought patterns, etc. It is a peaceful place. I am there once in awhile, much less often than I would like.
Bringing this down to Earth, you are saying that your son has rejected you somewhat. Do you still want him?
Are you open to the possibility that there is value to strong desire and blindness due to strong desire?
Hmmm. What does “lost” mean? Like God takes it away?
Exactly. You don’t intend to go away from God, you do so without fully willing or knowing, right? We all do this. Do you think that Abba holds something against you for going, when you do not even realize you are going, and such going is not your intention? Or does God wait until we do something wrong and then say “yer outta here!”.
Have you heard of the Linn’s Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God? It’s a really great book.
He tells us to give up the slavery, not the object of the slavery. For example, a person can be addicted to food, but Jesus is not telling us to starve, He is telling us to repent from the slavery to addiction. In a materialistic society, we are addicted to "keeping up with the Jones’ ", right? There is nothing wrong with having some material possessions. Our slavery lies in having to have what our neighbor has, it is part of enslavement to wanting status and power.
That’s unfortunate?
Do you want pain?
There are plenty of Catholic books on contemplative prayer and meditation, but I find that the process of simply quieting the mind and observing thoughts and feelings as they come a very worthwhile form of prayer. I find God in the quiet, in the place from which I am observing. It takes time and practice, and no one is “good at it”.
“I am feeling frustrated”, “I am thinking that God doesn’t like me.” “I am very depressed and discouraged.” These are all observations of our feelings and thoughts. If we find ourselves judging those feelings and thoughts, we can observe the judging. “I am thinking that God does not like me, and I am judging myself as bad because of that”.
Oh yes, Jesus calls us not to judge! Observe again: “I am judging myself about judging.”
If we can come from a place of openness and infinite compassion, which is found in the silence, we can observe all of these things and not be slaves to our human compulsions, emotions, thought patterns, etc. It is a peaceful place. I am there once in awhile, much less often than I would like.
The answer can be “maybe”, or it may be “I am giving you what you need in a deeper way.” For example, are you taking your son to a specialist or to people who know how to help the autistic?
Well, there isn’t anything I can say that would convince you otherwise on that point, I understand what you are saying.
Bringing this down to Earth, you are saying that your son has rejected you somewhat. Do you still want him?
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hi Ed,
This is surely topic for a different thread, but if someone we have labeled as “new Age” is getting people to open the Gospel, then that is a good thing.
The Church has a long history of incorporating an unfolding revelation. Theology develops in a direction toward Christ, that is the working of the Spirit. At a micro-level, all of us are also in the process of incorporating and developing a spirituality towards Christ. All of us take wrong paths sometimes.
I do not fear those who have labeled as “New Age”. When they are going the wrong way, they will learn from suffering, just like the rest of us. I don’t fear when people are drawn away from Church teaching in some way, because Truth always wins!
If someone is speaking a distorted truth, then we are called to address the distorted truth. Any discussion of Winfrey, Tolle, or anyone else labelled “new age” should be a discussion of the distortions, right?
Can you point me to a good thread that addressed distortions?
Thanks.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Only if the strong desire is for good. The problem is if one is blind, how do they know they’re having a strong desire for good?
I’m talking about being in the state of sin.
Temporally, yes. Spiritually, no.
Nope, never heard of it.
I don’t care to “keep up with the Joneses” I’m trying to keep away from holding a cardboard sign that says “homeless will work for food.” Since I want to avoid that, God thinks that’s evil.
No, I’m not a masochist.
I don’t find that in silence.
If my wife gives me the silent treatment, I clearly did something wrong and she’s angry at me.
If God gives me the silent treatment, he’s clearly angry at me and I must have done something wrong (but what is it?)
Maybe is not an answer. “deeper way” is a yes.
God has not provided me with a health insurance policy that covers this. We have a high deductible plan at work.
Yes, I want him.
Now even though I want my son, God doesn’t want me. I feel like I can’t relate to God (like my son can’t relate to me, despite all the good and fun things I do for him).
J
joseie
Guest
I am now certain that he is just teasing us.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning, Bob
“I will catch fish, and that will offset food expenses.”
“I will stop other forms of entertainment, which cost money”
This man is blind to consequences.
He is convinced that getting the boat is good, right?
It is a really easy read, Bob. It received an imprimi potest from the Jesuits.
I will PM you. Thanks for the continued great conversation.
I love that question, Bob! Let me give it a think. So, let’s say a person’s strong desire is “I must have a boat”. He does not have the money or time to have a boat, and his conscience says “you cannot afford a boat”, but as a matter of automatic blindness, his conscience is completely ignored/dispatched.
“I will catch fish, and that will offset food expenses.”
“I will stop other forms of entertainment, which cost money”
This man is blind to consequences.
He is convinced that getting the boat is good, right?
Well, the “state of sin” is a chosen state, right? And when we are in that state, we suffer. In time, we realize our lack, and the Spirit draws us back. It’s all quite natural, no? The guy who buys the boat ends up suffering some poverty and gets in a lot of fights with his wife and in-laws. He comes to realize that he was not listening to God, he had not repented from his irrational desire.
By “temporally”, do you mean that God holds something against you, which is an explanation for your troubles today?
I highly recommend Good Goats by the Linns, as well as all of their “Healing” books. They are real eye-openers, showing how our doctrine and practice can lead us in the wrong direction if we don’t see the whole picture. Dennis and Matthew Linn went down the wrong road, even thought they were very “Catholic”.
God thinks it is evil if you want to avoid homelessness? Then why does Social Justice teaching call for us to shelter the homeless?
I think I misunderstood you. Are you saying that it is evil not to want pain?
Doesn’t this mean that you are more loving than God, though? But that is certainly not what you mean. I think you are expressing frustration, right?
This is why I am recommending Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God. Are you open to the possibility that you cannot relate to God because your image of God (like what happened to the Linns) has become distorted?
It is a really easy read, Bob. It received an imprimi potest from the Jesuits.
I will PM you. Thanks for the continued great conversation.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
My strong desire is to stay out of poverty. It would be nice if I could be a billionaire (I’m imagining all the ministries I could fund) - but I know that ain’t gonna happen unless God performs a miracle.
So rather than shoot for that impossible thing, I’m just trying to stay employed, stay insured, and stay healthy. Just the basics. I’m not interested in catching up to the Joneses. I don’t care about that. I just want to provide for my family so we don’t do without the necessities.
So a boat is not even on my radar, so that example I can’t relate to.
Your honor, please take judicial notice that we are not in the Garden of Eden.
We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors (not spiritually, Christ took care of that!)
Pay attention to that key part: “for us to shelter”
We have to do it. God doesn’t have to.
I don’t believe it is evil to not want pain. I think it is reasonable, and rational.
I’m thinking God thinks it is evil. If He didn’t, we’d never have to suffer.
When it comes to temporal things, yes.
I’ve seen people outperform God in temporal things.
God the Great Surgeon operates without anesthesia. Painful.
Ordinary human surgeons operate with anesthesia. No pain during the operation.
We must give bread to the hungry. I don’t see bread raining from heaven or the multiplication of the loaves happening anymore. We must do it. God doesn’t have to.
We must visit the prisoner in prison. I don’t see God showing up having conversations with them. We must do it, not him.
We must clothe the naked. I don’t see God at the loom creating clothes, or driving the trucks to deliver clothes. We must do it.
I can go on and go on.
God doesn’t have to do things because he says we must do it. He puts that responsibility on us but he has no responsibility.
I don’t want to think bad things about God. I want to think of him as a loving Daddy. I really do. It is hard to do so when bad luck happens. I’m interested in reading that book.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hello Bob,
My answer is that no matter what we desire, we are seeing the object of the desire as something good. Everything a person desires will benefit him in some way, whether we are blind or not; that is my observation. Of course, it is helpful to have an objective bystander with our own assessments of whether or not we are blinded in some way. Let’s say you do become very impoverished and you end up finding good reason to steal in order to feed your family. If you steal and feel guilty about it, but realize that you have chosen a lesser evil by keeping your family from starving, then you are not blind. If you steal and say to yourself, “my victim deserved being robbed” or do not even consider the needs of your victim, then this indicates a blindness, the consequences are not forefront.
Does that make sense? Did we get sidetracked? What do you think, how do we know we are having a strong desire for good?
Have a great day, friend.
Your question was, " if one is blind, how do they know they’re having a strong desire for good?"
My answer is that no matter what we desire, we are seeing the object of the desire as something good. Everything a person desires will benefit him in some way, whether we are blind or not; that is my observation. Of course, it is helpful to have an objective bystander with our own assessments of whether or not we are blinded in some way. Let’s say you do become very impoverished and you end up finding good reason to steal in order to feed your family. If you steal and feel guilty about it, but realize that you have chosen a lesser evil by keeping your family from starving, then you are not blind. If you steal and say to yourself, “my victim deserved being robbed” or do not even consider the needs of your victim, then this indicates a blindness, the consequences are not forefront.
Does that make sense? Did we get sidetracked?
What do you think, how do we know we are having a strong desire for good?Well, that depends on our image of God, right?
Again, this depends on our image of God. I am seeing that God wants to and does shelter us, but he does so primarily through our own natural desires for shelter, and a bit from working through others.
So the question is, do we suffer because God wants us to? I am thinking that God wants us to learn things, and suffering is part of that learning process. This leads to an even tougher question (IMO): Why did God not create us omniscient? If He had, we would not suffer. These are myserties I cannot explain, I refer to the Serenity Prayer for help; but my image of God remains uncompromised.
Anesthesia is a gift from God. Yes, we do have some natural anesthesia too. When we suffer, opioid-like compounds are released into our blood stream. If they worked too well, we would want to keep suffering, right?
But everything comes from Him, right? My very being comes from His grace. How can we excise Him out of anything we do?
Yes, it is hard, I agree.
Have a great day, friend.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
I think a desire for Good is a desire for God.
If a desire is for God, God wants that to happen.
So if God wants it, that means the desires for Good come from God.
and God confirms this is good by rewarding or sending some message that one is on the right track.
Bad luck is neither. so clearly my desire to not suffer, to not be in poverty, to provide for my family all are evil.
How?
If we’re not in the Garden of Eden, we are held temporally responsible for the sins of others. How is this a good thing? Seems to contradict Deut 24:16
Just as I said, we have to do it, not him.
The answer is a big juicy YES.
As if there is not another way to do it. God has the ability to program our mind, and change our mind if we allow it (free will).
And is not wanting to suffer, evil? If yes, no wonder God hates me! I’m wanting an evil thing!
But not to me. I don’t own a city, but the city came from God. God created wealth, but not to me. God created nice things but not for me. God created blessings, but not for me.
I’m an exception. I hate being an exception. (yes, I know others also suffer, they’re exception too)
God created us to exist. Our existence is not a gift, it is a responsibility. A gift can be returned without penalty. Our life cannot be. I an not allowed to commit suicide to return the gift.
(and don’t go there! I’m not considering it, wouldn’t do that because that’s a one way street to hell) Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility. With no power.
Power without responsibility = corrupt dictator.
Responsibility without power = slavery
Life is slavery.
V
Vico
Guest
The action is one man’s disobedience countered by one man’s act of righteousness.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
A gift does not have to be returnable. Now, this is why God created us:
Baltimore Catechism No. 3:
3. Why did God make us?
God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.
Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, what things God has prepared for those who love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)
4. What must we do to gain the happiness of heaven?
To gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world.
Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth; where the rust and moth consume and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven; where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. (Matthew 6:19-20)
Everyone has responsibility and because of free will, one can be a servant to either God or Satan.
Rest for the Weary - The light burden of Christ, Matthew 11:30
25 At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to the little ones. 26 Yea, Father; for so hath it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.
28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.
Slavery to the Devil, Gospel of John 8
34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin. 35 Now the servant abideth not in the house for ever; but the son abideth for ever. 36 If therefore the son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. 37 I know that you are the children of Abraham: but you seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do the things that you have seen with your father.
39 They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not. 41 You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: 43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 45 But if I say the truth, you believe me not. 46 Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me? 47 He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning, Bob
I must say, I continue to enjoy our non-confrontational discussion. It is nice to interact with someone and be on equal ground. Please continue to read my words as a fellow speck-of-dust. I am not a professional anything, and everything I say can be acceptably dismissed.
In this way, I am somehow energized to do something different, to make an effort, to make a small move to mitigate whatever is overwhelming me.
I agree with Vico about how we return the gift, but I am also hearing and understanding that your emphasis is that life is a responsibility, and that you feel powerless.
Yes, if we have responsibility without power, we are stuck! And you are feeling quite powerless, so you are feeling enslaved in “stuckness”?
Thanks for responding.
I must say, I continue to enjoy our non-confrontational discussion. It is nice to interact with someone and be on equal ground. Please continue to read my words as a fellow speck-of-dust. I am not a professional anything, and everything I say can be acceptably dismissed.
Sounds good, but I think some of the messages are very subtle, and sometimes do not come into my awareness until much later.
I am hearing the frustration.
Well, we need not take the Genesis story literally. Do we believe in a god who gives and then takes away, knowing full well that the human would fail a test? I do not, I have a different image of God. If the scripture depicts a god who does not love me at least as much as the person who loves me most, there is a contradiction. I resolve the contradiction by looking at the context and purpose of the writing. In the case of the story of A&E, I think that reading the story literally involves compromising the unconditional love and forgiveness of God.
Yes, we shelter ourselves using the gifts of motion and motive that God has given us. In addition, suffering from exposure and insecurity adds to the incentive to shelter ourselves. God has not injected knowledge into us; we learn by making mistakes and suffering the consequences. I don’t like to suffer, feel frustrated, worried, angry, or depressed, but I experience all of those. I deal with them by observing the emotions and allowing them to be. I am enslaved by depression until I look at my depression and say, “I am feeling depressed.” I deal with the second reaction, "I am feeling depressed again, I am suffering again. Which I wish not to occur, so my mind resists admitting it. Then, in prayer, I come to accept my depression; “I’m depressed, and its okay.” To me, the acceptance is coming from the Father. I let myself feel depressed, I allow it to occur. This is a prayer that puts me in a different mindset. I am offering my suffering to God, and He guides me through with a gentle hand. To me, it is error to think that I am doing all of this by myself.
In this way, I am somehow energized to do something different, to make an effort, to make a small move to mitigate whatever is overwhelming me.
Okay, I have to agree. God wants us to grow in knowledge and wisdom, and we learn through suffering, so God must want us to suffer. However, the guiding factor is that God wants us to grow in wisdom, as Jesus did. We don’t always have to suffer to learn stuff, right?
Well, in a sense God has programmed our minds. We are all born with capacities for all of the emotions and appetites. And yes, through prayer, I think we can allow for God to change our minds, but yes, we “allow it”, it is a participatory effort.
Yes, you are thinking God hates you.
You are thinking that everything you have is not nice, and are not blessings. You are thinking that your lack of such sets you apart, but you are seeing that others also have the same affliction.
You are thinking that committing suicide is a return of the gift, rather than throwing away the gift, and you are basing the assertion that life is not a gift on the thinking that if we “return” it in this way, we are penalized.
I agree with Vico about how we return the gift, but I am also hearing and understanding that your emphasis is that life is a responsibility, and that you feel powerless.
It would be quite a pickle if God gave us a life of responsibility with no power to carry out our responsibilities!
Yes, if we have responsibility without power, we are stuck! And you are feeling quite powerless, so you are feeling enslaved in “stuckness”?Thanks for responding.
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