Original Sin question

[BobCatholic]

The action is one man’s disobedience countered by one man’s act of righteousness.

It is fully countered in the spiritual realm, and I totally agree with that.

On the temporal realm, not countered at all.

If it were fully countered, we’d be in the Garden of Eden.

Romans 8:23: We’re still waiting for our bodies to be redeemed. Paul says “I make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ…”

We are held temporally responsible for the sins of others.

A gift does not have to be returnable. Now, this is why God created us:

A “gift” that has an obligation attached to it is not a gift, it is a responsibility.

Life on earth is not a gift, it is a responsibility. Nothing more. It is a test. We do something wrong, we get punished. Life was not given to us without any obligations or responsibilities.

Rest for the Weary - The light burden of Christ, Matthew 11:30

The rest comes in the after life if one makes it to heaven. Otherwise, game over, no rest.

This is only about spiritual things.

 

[Vico]

It is fully countered in the spiritual realm, and I totally agree with that.

On the temporal realm, not countered at all.

If it were fully countered, we’d be in the Garden of Eden.

Romans 8:23: We’re still waiting for our bodies to be redeemed. Paul says “I make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ…”

We are held temporally responsible for the sins of others.

A “gift” that has an obligation attached to it is not a gift, it is a responsibility.

Life on earth is not a gift, it is a responsibility. Nothing more. It is a test. We do something wrong, we get punished. Life was not given to us without any obligations or responsibilities.

The rest comes in the after life if one makes it to heaven. Otherwise, game over, no rest.

This is only about spiritual things.

Yes, we can suffer from our parents. This is the belief since ancient times. Bug it is called reatus poena not reatus culpae; it is not a personal guilt.

Gospel of John 9
1 And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: 2 And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? 3 Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

There is no obligation attached to the gifts given to Adam and Eve (which are know as the four Cardinal Virtues: Justice, Prudence, Fortitude, Temperance):

• gift of sanctifying grace
• preternatural gifts (infused knowledge, immortality, and integrity - freedom from concupiscence)

Since the gifts are incompatible with lack of charity they can be lost. The are gifts because they are not due us. What we receive naturally is life without the guarantee of the Beatific Vision but with the potential for it.

 

[BobCatholic]

Well, we need not take the Genesis story literally.

To a certain extent that is true. There was a literal Adam and Eve. Beyond that, not sure where to draw the line.

Do we believe in a god who gives and then takes away, knowing full well that the human would fail a test?

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Not sure if this is the case here.

I think God created A&E imperfect.

They had one or more of the below imperfections.

• stupidity - they didn’t know who the snake was
• pride - they didn’t think they had to listen to God
• naivete - they believe anything anyone tells them, a talking snake says something and they accept it without thinking

God creates buggy software and then when it crashes, says “naughty naughty! get out of this garden!”

Yes, we shelter ourselves using the gifts of motion and motive that God has given us.

They’re not gifts, they’re a responsibility, since they are not given without conditions. As a result, it is us not him doing it.

Well, in a sense God has programmed our minds. We are all born with capacities for all of the emotions and appetites. And yes, through prayer, I think we can allow for God to change our minds, but yes, we “allow it”, it is a participatory effort.

But the software is buggy. As a result, blue screen of death.

You are thinking that everything you have is not nice, and are not blessings.

What is given to me are nice and blessings. However, there are lots of nice things and blessings God won’t give me. Yes, they’re good. That’s why God doesn’t want me to have them.

You are thinking that committing suicide is a return of the gift, rather than throwing away the gift,

No, throwing away the gift is going to hell. A life of sin.

and you are basing the assertion that life is not a gift on the thinking that if we “return” it in this way, we are penalized.

No, life is not a gift because it has conditions.

Imagine if someone were to say “I’m giving you a gift, but you must use it for the following purposes which make me look good.”

It no longer is a gift, but a responsibility.

I am also hearing and understanding that your emphasis is that life is a responsibility, and that you feel powerless.

That’s exactly what it is.

It would be quite a pickle if God gave us a life of responsibility with no power to carry out our responsibilities! Yes, if we have responsibility without power, we are stuck! And you are feeling quite powerless, so you are feeling enslaved in “stuckness”?

Correct.

And I’m in that pickle.