Original Sin question

[joseie]

Hi joseie,

I agree with fhansen, that is, we are not taught that we are useless people in any way, nor are we to live with a guilty conscience with no self-respect. We are taught to forgive, and self-forgiveness is very important. Ideally, self-forgiveness is part of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Indeed, our own clinging to self-condemnation is something worth confessing! So, the end of your paragraph, “be happy and don’t live under a guilty conscience” is more in line with Christianity.Even in the most common

BTW: The Sister working at our parish is from India, so I have an appreciation for the struggles of Christians in your land. I also know of the firm dedication people there have to their faith. God bless you and your brethren.

It is a fact that the overall picture of man projected expecially in the NT including in the letters and Revelations is that he is having much less goodness in him than required and is inclined towards evil.It is expected that you should have always a feeling that you are a sinner, be in a repenting mood through out your life here and pray for God’s mercy.The parable of the prayer of the Pharisee and publican(Luke18:9-14) etc.refers.The most common daily prayers to Mary namely,Hail mary and hail holy queen basically contain this principle.I am yet to see a church writing encouraging us to live here as happily as possible enjoying all the facilities given by God.
Any how my point in short is that we need not be that much worried about the original sin etc.Try to live here as happiliy as possible. Don’t live with a guilty conscience that because of the original sin we all have become sinners or that enjoying all the facilities given by God in full is a sin or that we should utilise only the barest minimum facilities just enough to pass through g our short journey here.
About your BYW:
There is no’ struggle ’ at all for Christians in India and Christianity is very strong and prospering in India.You may be aware that India which is the largest democratic country in the world is a unique country as well.
Unlike most countries in the world, India is a country with constituent states/federal units/regions each having entirely different languages,culture, customs,climate, topography,food habits etc.The physical appearance and characteristics,dressing,social life etc of the people are also entirely different from region to region.To top it all ,in each state ,people from different religions co exist peacefully .Two great religions in the world Hinduism and Buddhism originated in India.India is a secular country meaning equal treatment to all religions by the state.We own a very strong spiritual and cultural heritage .Nobody even dare to speak about legalising ssm,giving rights to gays etc.which are criminal offences in India.In such aspects we are safe and secure and do not struggle as elsewhere.
I

 

[simpleas]

Catechism:

VI. THE HOPE OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH

1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."633

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."635

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament."636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, “the holy city” of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.639

631 LG 48; Cf. Acts 3:21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; 2 Pet 3:10-13.
632 2 Pet 3:13; Cf. Rev 21:1.
633 Eph 1:10.
634 Cf. Rev 21:5.
635 Rev 21:4.
636 Cf. LG 1.
637 Rev 21:2,9.
638 Cf. Rev 21:27.
639 Rom 8:19-23.​

So it’ll be better second time round, that’s if we make it.

God doesn’t make mistakes, I don’t see why he would need to remake the heavens and the earth.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by joseie

.Nobody even dare to speak about legalising ssm,giving rights to gays etc.which are criminal offences in India

Oh…I thought India was *the largest democratic country in the world *

Why then would people dare not speak of rights for all people?

Not to derail the thread, but can I ask is abortion illegal India?

Thanks.

 

[Vico]

So it’ll be better second time round, that’s if we make it.

God doesn’t make mistakes, I don’t see why he would need to remake the heavens and the earth.

Remake is part of the plan of resurrection.

 

[simpleas]

Remake is part of the plan of resurrection.

I’m starting to think the resurrection could be understood as in this life /part of this life. Jesus talked about being reborn in this life by the waters of baptism. Being made new now.
The difficulty with this is we must always remember we are sinners.We can never know if we have reached that perfect goal until we die…most of us have given up on the idea once we take a good look at the world.

 

[simpleas]

Oh…I thought India was *the largest democratic country in the world *

Why then would people dare not speak of rights for all people?

Not to derail the thread, but can I ask is abortion illegal India?

Thanks.

No need to answer, I did a quick google search

 

[joseie]

Oh…I thought India was *the largest democratic country in the world *

Why then would people dare not speak of rights for all people?

Not to derail the thread, but can I ask is abortion illegal India?

Thanks.

Could be that in the deep rooted religious tradition people think that it is against nature and God.However there is no bar in expessing solidarity and support and demanding legislation in their favour which happen also here and there but in a sudued manner for fear of offending the public sentments.

 

[Vico]

Could be that in the deep rooted religious tradition people think that it is against nature and God.However there is no bar in expessing solidarity and support and demanding legislation in their favour which happen also here and there but in a sudued manner for fear of offending the public sentments.

You can read the teaching in the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 1387. If every one is judged immediately after death, what need is there of a general judgment?

A. There is need of a general judgment, though every one is judged immediately after death, that the providence of God, which, on earth, often permits the good to suffer and the wicked to prosper, may in the end appear just before all men.

Q. 1391. When will the general resurrection or rising of all the dead take place?

A. The general resurrection or rising of all the dead will take place at the general judgment, when the same bodies in which we lived on earth will come forth from the grave and be united to our souls and remain united with them forever either in heaven or in hell.

 

[joseie]

Post no 417(by vico) reproducing the church teaching on the hope of new heaven and earth makes a pleasant reading.According to this earth,heaven,universe, church all will join together to form new heaven and earth and good people in their glorified body will live together along with God forever.No pain ,tears or death.Bad people permanently in hell.
Could it be really like that?The glorified bodies will not have any thing inside ? Time will stand still ?Sun’s light not required to see ? Unanswerable questions!

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Joseie,

It is a fact that the overall picture of man projected expecially in the NT including in the letters and Revelations is that he is having much less goodness in him than required and is inclined towards evil

This is one reading of the Gospel, but IMO we can also read the opposite of what you are saying. Both interpretations have their support.

.

It is expected that you should have always a feeling that you are a sinner, be in a repenting mood through out your life here and pray for God’s mercy.The parable of the prayer of the Pharisee and publican(Luke18:9-14) etc.refers.The most common daily prayers to Mary namely,Hail mary and hail holy queen basically contain this principle.I am yet to see a church writing encouraging us to live here as happily as possible enjoying all the facilities given by God.

There is an important distinction to be made between humility and guilt. Humility is a matter of realizing the important Truth that none of us is above anyone else, we all are capable of great sin, and we all sin. Do you see that whenever someone points at someone else and says “he is a bad person!” he is comparing himself as better than the other?

While our own God-given egos tend to elevate the importance of our individual self, when we look upon the enormity of creation, its function, the awesome gift, we are struck with a sense of our own smallness. There is a happiness to be found in the humility of realizing our smallness. This is not the same as sustained guilt. Guilt is self-condemnation, and we are called to forgive.

Any how my point in short is that we need not be that much worried about the original sin etc.Try to live here as happiliy as possible. Don’t live with a guilty conscience that because of the original sin we all have become sinners or that enjoying all the facilities given by God in full is a sin or that we should utilise only the barest minimum facilities just enough to pass through g our short journey here.

It sounds like even though Luke’s Gospel and Hail, Holy Queen had been explained to you in a more guilt-infested way, the True Gospel came through anyway.

Jesus calls us to an eternal life, and he was very focused on life on Earth. Eternal life begins today.

About your BYW:
There is no’ struggle ’ at all for Christians in India and Christianity is very strong and prospering in India.You may be aware that India which is the largest democratic country in the world is a unique country as well.

I am glad that you live in a more accepting area. It would not surprise me, though, if the region where our Sister comes from and the region where you live are very different. She comes from an area of persecution.

Post no 417(by vico) reproducing the church teaching on the hope of new heaven and earth makes a pleasant reading.According to this earth,heaven,universe, church all will join together to form new heaven and earth and good people in their glorified body will live together along with God forever.No pain ,tears or death.Bad people permanently in hell.
Could it be really like that?The glorified bodies will not have any thing inside ? Time will stand still ?Sun’s light not required to see ? Unanswerable questions!

I’m not sure where you saw the bolded part. Did you want to see it?

As far as the questions go, I stand by “If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.” Jesus, too, had to be very careful in his speech as to not be turned over to the authorities. Roman and Jewish. He was saying subversive things to both power structures.

 

[joseie]

Dear onesheep,thanks for your detailed reply.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Bob!

When I say “bug” I mean an imperfection that leads people to sin. Concupiscence.

This bug makes it easy to sin but hard to be holy.

Here is another way of looking at it: Concupiscence does not lead us to sin; rather, natural, strong desires compel us to get our physical needs met. When we proceed without the wisdom of the conscience, or when we are blinded from our conscience, we may sin. The blindness is also natural and has its place, and it is useful to be aware of it.

What is the message sent when it is easy to fail but hard to succeed, and how this relates to whether God wants people?

It tells me God’s grace is fragile like crystal glassware. One mistake, SMASH! CRASH! and it is gone.

Yes, it can be hard sometimes. Prayer helps, but also knowing that God forgives us unconditionally, with infinite patience, helps.

How does God really want me if he makes it horrifically difficult to get to him, but ridiculously easy to sin and fail him and go away from him?

Maybe you only think you are going away from Hm. Do you intend to go away from Him?

Christ says the self is evil. That’s why we must “give up the self” to follow him.

Yes, we must “give up the self”, all of our attachments and strong desires in order to be free. Makes sense, right? Where does Jesus say that the self is evil?

What Christ talks about is far more than this.

He asks the rich young ruler to sell everything and give it to the poor. He does not want us to have any temporal pleasures on earth, life is just the cross.

There is an enormous difference between having temporal pleasures and focusing our lives on temporal pleasures. We are called to be free from the slavery of wanting temporal pleasures.

OK, how about “other people exist but they have no needs, wants, desires or any demand on me whatsoever. If they do, they’re evil and need to be punished.”

This is exactly the way our normal minds work. When someone stands in the way of what we desire, our minds naturally go into an empathy-blocking mode. We become blind to consideration of the needs and value of the other. If this is “narcissism”, then we are all narcissists, which renders the label impertinent. With a bit of self-awareness, we can learn to recognize when our minds are doing this.

Yes. I’m stuck and God does not want to help

.

Bob, you are doing the “stinkin’ thinkin’” thing again. We all have our own downward modes, and I hope you don’t mind if I am alerting you. Feel free to point mine out!

The video is based on several false things. “Christianity without religion” defines “religion” of something that is not religion, but hates rules of any kind.

I must admit that Rohr can sometimes be a little hard on the institution, but I don’t remember seeing any of that in the video. Feel free to ignore that stuff, he isn’t perfect.

He praises Ekhart Toley (sp?) who is a new age guru type who pushes the false and destructive new age stuff (see Catholic Answers archived shows about this - in the “new age” subjects) - this one pushes narcissism to the extreme.

Whew! Eckhart Tolle “pushes” anything? His methodology is meditative prayer, Bob. Making life a prayer involves observation of all that occurs, including the habits of our thinking. Are you pointing out Tolle as destructive, while saying that God does not want to help us?

Are you open to the possibility that some of your own thinking might be destructive? We all have our hurdles to overcome, right? Observational prayer is a huge start to help our situations.

Look, I just want to Love God. But HOW can I love God when he refuses to talk to me, when he won’t help me with the basic things I need in life?

I ask for help with my employment situation, so therefore it must be something evil so he says no.

I ask for my son to be healed and he says no. Clearly that must be evil.

If God is saying “no” then you would be knowing His mind. That’s a pretty big claim, right? I am hearing your frustration Bob, and I am seeing that your words are an expression of this. You are frustrated, right?

You are seeing God as standing in the way of what you want, so you are saying He (or what He is neglecting) is evil. Doesn’t this all tie together? There is nothing unnatural about what you are saying, Bob. It seems to me that you feel frustrated; understandably so.

90% of the time I pray for other’s needs, but when I dare to ask for things on my own, God says no and thinks the basic things I ask for are evil. God’s will is capricious and arbitrary.

Frustration, right?

Is your boy improving in his ability to be functional in the world, or is that also a great source of frustration?

With appreciation, always.

 

[edwest2]

Eckhart Tolle is causing great destruction.

lifesitenews.com/news/the-worlds-most-dangerous-spiritual-guru-oprah-begins-10-week-online-new-ag

Ed

 

[davidv]

Good Morning Bob!

Here is another way of looking at it: Concupiscence does not lead us to sin; rather, natural, strong desires compel us to get our physical needs met.

Merriam Webster:

to force (someone) to do something

If you are using this definition of compel, concupiscence does not compel anything. Concupiscence is a disorder that allows temptations to sin to arise from within. Like the temptation to give in to strong desires. Free will allows us, with the help of God’s grace, to overcome these temptations, with, or without wisdom.

When we proceed without the wisdom of the conscience, or when we are blinded from our conscience, we may sin. The blindness is also natural and has its place, and it is useful to be aware of it.

Yes, it can be hard sometimes. Prayer helps, but also knowing that God forgives us unconditionally, with infinite patience, helps.

Maybe you only think you are going away from Hm. Do you intend to go away from Him?

Yes, we must “give up the self”, all of our attachments and strong desires in order to be free. Makes sense, right? Where does Jesus say that the self is evil?

There is an enormous difference between having temporal pleasures and focusing our lives on temporal pleasures. We are called to be free from the slavery of wanting temporal pleasures.

This is exactly the way our normal minds work. When someone stands in the way of what we desire, our minds naturally go into an empathy-blocking mode. We become blind to consideration of the needs and value of the other. If this is “narcissism”, then we are all narcissists, which renders the label impertinent. With a bit of self-awareness, we can learn to recognize when our minds are doing this.

.

Bob, you are doing the “stinkin’ thinkin’” thing again. We all have our own downward modes, and I hope you don’t mind if I am alerting you. Feel free to point mine out!

I must admit that Rohr can sometimes be a little hard on the institution, but I don’t remember seeing any of that in the video. Feel free to ignore that stuff, he isn’t perfect.

Whew! Eckhart Tolle “pushes” anything? His methodology is meditative prayer, Bob. Making life a prayer involves observation of all that occurs, including the habits of our thinking. Are you pointing out Tolle as destructive, while saying that God does not want to help us?

Are you open to the possibility that some of your own thinking might be destructive? We all have our hurdles to overcome, right? Observational prayer is a huge start to help our situations.

If God is saying “no” then you would be knowing His mind. That’s a pretty big claim, right? I am hearing your frustration Bob, and I am seeing that your words are an expression of this. You are frustrated, right?

You are seeing God as standing in the way of what you want, so you are saying He (or what He is neglecting) is evil. Doesn’t this all tie together? There is nothing unnatural about what you are saying, Bob. It seems to me that you feel frustrated; understandably so.

Frustration, right?

Is your boy improving in his ability to be functional in the world, or is that also a great source of frustration?

With appreciation, always.

 

[OneSheep]

Eckhart Tolle is causing great destruction.

lifesitenews.com/news/the-worlds-most-dangerous-spiritual-guru-oprah-begins-10-week-online-new-ag

Ed

Hello Ed,

Here is an excerpt of the article:

However, Keller, and a number of other Christian pastors have begun to actively warn Christians that Oprah and Eckhart’s teachings are by no means compatible with Christianity. “Oprah is now trying to be the spiritual guru to this nation,” said Keller in an appearance on Fox. “Sadly, she is being used as a tool of Satan to lead millions of souls to hell with her false teachings.”

Another pastor, James A. Smith Sr., writing in the Florida Baptist Witness, criticized Oprah’s “spirituality” for its emphasis on the power of the individual to define truth and reality, and to totally control one’s own life. “What this fails to acknowledge is that man dos not define reality; man does not determine what truth is,” wrote Smith. "The source of truth for our decisions and power is the one true God of all reality and He has communicated plenary propositional truths to us in the Bible and remarkably, uniquely in His incarnation in Jesus Christ.

“Oprah, as with other New Agers, is not in pursuit and in communion with God.”

I am so very glad that no Catholic ministers were quoted. The accusations of “tool of Satan” and “not in communion with God” are reason to question the entire article, for to think that those critics have access to such knowledge is in itself questionable. Christ asks of us not to judge one another.

All Christians should carefully scrutinize sources and let doctrine and conscience be there guides. Tolle and Oprah are both spiritual people, and it is wonderful that they give attention to the Gospel. In particular, Eckhart Tolle’s simple spiritual practice of observation is very helpful to people, and falls in line with modern therapeutic approaches. When we observe our emotions, desires, and thoughts, we step away from them, we are not enslaved by them. This approach to prayer is very much in line with Christ’s teachings concerning freedom. It’s not for everyone, but it is a methodology.

The Church has no warnings against contemplative prayer.

Or, do you have other concerns?

 

[OneSheep]

If you are using this definition of compel, concupiscence does not compel anything. Concupiscence is a disorder that allows temptations to sin to arise from within. Like the temptation to give in to strong desires. Free will allows us, with the help of God’s grace, to overcome these temptations, with, or without wisdom.

Hi David,

I think that we can both agree that wisdom helps. I am still finding that the human inclination to do good is stronger than any inclination to do evil.

Thanks

 

[davidv]

Hi David,

I think that we can both agree that wisdom helps. I am still finding that the human inclination to do good is stronger than any inclination to do evil.

Thanks

This suppose inclination is notably absent in the multiple daily occurrences of violence in today’s world.

 

[Vico]

Post no 417(by vico) reproducing the church teaching on the hope of new heaven and earth makes a pleasant reading.According to this earth,heaven,universe, church all will join together to form new heaven and earth and good people in their glorified body will live together along with God forever.No pain ,tears or death.Bad people permanently in hell.
Could it be really like that?The glorified bodies will not have any thing inside ? Time will stand still ?Sun’s light not required to see ? Unanswerable questions!

Did you miss this from post 417 about the material and our bodies?

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.639​

 

[edwest2]

Hello Ed,

Here is an excerpt of the article:

However, Keller, and a number of other Christian pastors have begun to actively warn Christians that Oprah and Eckhart’s teachings are by no means compatible with Christianity. “Oprah is now trying to be the spiritual guru to this nation,” said Keller in an appearance on Fox. “Sadly, she is being used as a tool of Satan to lead millions of souls to hell with her false teachings.”

Another pastor, James A. Smith Sr., writing in the Florida Baptist Witness, criticized Oprah’s “spirituality” for its emphasis on the power of the individual to define truth and reality, and to totally control one’s own life. “What this fails to acknowledge is that man dos not define reality; man does not determine what truth is,” wrote Smith. "The source of truth for our decisions and power is the one true God of all reality and He has communicated plenary propositional truths to us in the Bible and remarkably, uniquely in His incarnation in Jesus Christ.

“Oprah, as with other New Agers, is not in pursuit and in communion with God.”

I am so very glad that no Catholic ministers were quoted. The accusations of “tool of Satan” and “not in communion with God” are reason to question the entire article, for to think that those critics have access to such knowledge is in itself questionable. Christ asks of us not to judge one another.

All Christians should carefully scrutinize sources and let doctrine and conscience be there guides. Tolle and Oprah are both spiritual people, and it is wonderful that they give attention to the Gospel. In particular, Eckhart Tolle’s simple spiritual practice of observation is very helpful to people, and falls in line with modern therapeutic approaches. When we observe our emotions, desires, and thoughts, we step away from them, we are not enslaved by them. This approach to prayer is very much in line with Christ’s teachings concerning freedom. It’s not for everyone, but it is a methodology.

The Church has no warnings against contemplative prayer.

Or, do you have other concerns?

In a video I watched twice, Oprah stated there is more than one path to God. She comes from a Baptist background. Then, a young Christian in the audience stood up and pointed out there is only one path, Jesus Christ.

Oprah is influencing millions of people with incorrect information.

shop.catholic.com/oprah-televangelist-of-the-new-age-deception-set.html

Ed

 

[BobCatholic]

Here is another way of looking at it: Concupiscence does not lead us to sin; rather, natural, strong desires compel us to get our physical needs met. When we proceed without the wisdom of the conscience, or when we are blinded from our conscience, we may sin. The blindness is also natural and has its place, and it is useful to be aware of it.

There is no value to concupiscence.

Yes, it can be hard sometimes. Prayer helps, but also knowing that God forgives us unconditionally, with infinite patience, helps.

Yes, God forgives, then gives us grace which is easily lost again.

Maybe you only think you are going away from Hm. Do you intend to go away from Him?

No.

Yes, we must “give up the self”, all of our attachments and strong desires in order to be free. Makes sense, right? Where does Jesus say that the self is evil?

Why would Jesus tell us to give up something GOOD? He wants us to give up evil.

If He wants us to give up the self, that means the self must be evil.

We are called to be free from the slavery of wanting temporal pleasures.

I’m not looking for hedonism. I want to not have pain. Unfortunately, that’s evil too.

Whew! Eckhart Tolle “pushes” anything? His methodology is meditative prayer, Bob. Making life a prayer involves observation of all that occurs, including the habits of our thinking. Are you pointing out Tolle as destructive, while saying that God does not want to help us?

There are no meditative prayer sources that are Catholic instead of New age?

If God is saying “no” then you would be knowing His mind.

I ask. Don’t get. The answer must be no.

Doesn’t require a ThD to see this.

You are seeing God as standing in the way of what you want,

I’m saying God does not want me. Big difference.

Is your boy improving in his ability to be functional in the world, or is that also a great source of frustration?

No.

And I have no improvement in my job situation either.

God said no. Game over.