Original Sin question

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I agree, A&E were not perfect in awareness. Does God as you know Him give us the freedom to make this observation?
Not sure. Maybe I’m too smart for my own good, or maybe I’m too dumb to understand. Bugs in code. Everyone has them.
The way I look at it, they did not seem to be so stubborn about learning, but like us, desire influenced their consciences, they had doubt about the truth of the teaching. It is an induced blindness, is it not? Can you relate? I can.
They had doubt about the teaching because

desire > conscience

Another bug in the software.
Yes, we are imperfect in judgment because we are imperfect in awareness. IMO.
Agreed.

Another bug in the software.
But look, Bob, if God had suddenly showed up repeating the threat of death, and gave them the awareness of other subsequent consequences (i.e. to their children and grandchildren) they would have changed their minds. They would have thought about it in terms of “me first” saying “hmmm. eating the fruit no longer looks good TO ME”.
But look, if that was necessary, then there’s a bug in the software - they didn’t learn this fact the first time around when God said “if you eat this, you shall die (a spiritual death)”.
We cannot escape the fact that people do what they think is best in terms of a first-person perspective, right? Even when we consider the needs of others, or will of God, we act in accord with our personal value of others and God. Is there any escape from making it about ME? To me, every generation is the “me generation”. It is our nature. It is when we come to love all our neighbors as ourselves that the Kingdom is brought forth. “Me” and “we” become One through love, right?
Yes, it is natural to think “me first” - that’s why God calls us to be supernatural - go beyond “me first” to “we first” to “you first”.
A&E lost their love of God? Why? Are you sure?
The opposite of love is not hate. It is fear.
Is this a fear of God?
How can I fear God properly if I don’t know him and can’t relate to him?

How do I know if God is out of touch (i.e. cannot be accessed no matter how much I try because I can never do it right, due to my spiritual autism) or I’m out of touch because I choose to do this (but wait, the code is buggy).
 
Well, we all are capable of dehumanizing others, right?
Correct.
“Narcissist” is another one of those labels, I think. It is a label used in resentment of our own capacity to be self-centered.
No. It is a big difference.

Narcissism is the belief that “Me first, nobody else in the world exists.”

Self-centered is “Me first, and other people do exist in the world”

Two big time different ways of thinking.
Hey, doesn’t God want us to care about ourselves? Yes, there is something to be said and reprimanded about benefiting ourselves at the expense of others, but reprimanding in itself is not a criticism of the goodness of humanity.
Not sure if I posted this in this thread, but I think there are 3 levels of selfishness.

Level 1: Legitimate self interest. You’re thirsty, so you drink water. You’re hungry, so you eat a meal. You’re sick, so see a doctor.

Level 2: Selfishness: I’m going to do what I want, as long as it does not harm others. This appears to be the “selfishness” and “me first” you are talking about.

Level 3: Narcissist, sociopath: I’m going to do what I want, and I don’t care if I hurt others. The CEO who lays off 5000 people so he can get a bigger bonus check. The kid who kills someone to get their air jordan shoes.

Level 3 and Level 2 are unacceptable to God. Level 1 is tolerable to God.
It can be, if you ask people who have been so labeled.
It isn’t the label, but how people are treated.

I treat people with mental illness with kindness. I’ll treat a sociopath with kindness as long as he/she does too. (I’m not a masochist, so I’m not going to accept abuse from a sociopath).
What you presented is an accurate view of sociopathy, I think, except that the sociopath does not change his value of others. Because of a disabled ability to empathize, the sociopath does not know of the value of others in the first place.
I used the example of the person born without the ability to feel pain, who can put their hand on a hot stove and keep it there literally cooking themselves.
Is it not God’s will that we all grow and heal?
God’s will is the cross here on this planet. Growth is optional. Healing is optional.
Can we not know such love through the love of other people?
Imagine the boss who is cold and distant, but his employee is kind and warm. The boss does not want to do something so he tells the employee to do something. Now, who is warm? The boss or the employee?

If God refuses to do something but orders someone else to do it, is he being warm?
Would it not be more freeing to let go of all of the past indoctrination, just a little?
If the indoctrination were false, yes.
Yes, I get it. If God is not infinitely merciful, then He might allow us to choose hell with our “buggy code”, not having a clue what we are doing. Given this image, one can remain with some insecurity, some fear.
When it comes to spiritual things, God is infinitely merciful. Temporal things? Not so much.
Question: would you allow a person to choose hell without fully knowing what they are doing?
I wouldn’t. But that’s how I think, which is inferior to how God thinks.

In some ways, I hate to say, I think people do better than God, in some limited cases.

For example, a human surgeon at least gives a patient anesthesia prior to doing the horrifically painful operation. God doesn’t do this, but is called the Great Physician.

I don’t know why anesthesia is a horrible idea in God’s eyes. If I need an operation to fix buggy code, I want the anesthesia. The fix will hurt!
 
Pelagianism asserts falsely that by free will man has the capacity of willing and doing good without God’s grace, however the dogma we have is that grace overcomes concupiscence which we are born under.

What people are inclined to think is good is sin, due to concupiscence, and this inclination is greater than to reason.
Hello Vico,

I have been gone for awhile, and I will again be away from my computer, but do you have support for the statement that people are naturally inclined to think what is good is sin, and such inclination is greater than an inclination to reason- always?

I think it can definitely be shown that strong desire warps a person’s ability to reason, but I know plenty of unbaptized children who most of the time are fairly reasonable, within the limits of their own scope. Now, it could be that these children have all been “baptized by desire”, and we have no ability (or right) to judge, but these children learn from their mistakes, seek what they see as good, and generally intend to do what they see as good and reasonable.

Do you know many unbaptized children? If so, have you observed something different?

Thanks for your response.

🙂
 
Hello Vico,

I have been gone for awhile, and I will again be away from my computer, but do you have support for the statement that people are naturally inclined to think what is good is sin, and such inclination is greater than an inclination to reason- always?

I think it can definitely be shown that strong desire warps a person’s ability to reason, but I know plenty of unbaptized children who most of the time are fairly reasonable, within the limits of their own scope. Now, it could be that these children have all been “baptized by desire”, and we have no ability (or right) to judge, but these children learn from their mistakes, seek what they see as good, and generally intend to do what they see as good and reasonable.

Do you know many unbaptized children? If so, have you observed something different?

Thanks for your response.

🙂
Catholic Encyclopedia

…the opposition between appetite and reason is natural in man, and that, though it be an imperfection, it is not a corruption of human nature. Nor have the inordinate desires (actual concupiscence) or the proneness to them (habitual concupiscence) the nature of sin; for sin, being the free and deliberate transgression of the law of God, can be only in the rational will; though it be true that they are temptations to sin, becoming the stronger and the more frequent the oftener they have been indulged.


The Council of Trent (Sess. V, e.v.) defines that by the grace of baptism the guilt of original sin is completely remitted and does not merely cease to be imputed to man. As to concupiscence the council declares that it remains in those that are baptized in order that they may struggle for the victory, but does no harm to those who resist it by the grace of God, and that it is called sin by St. Paul, not because it is sin formally and in the proper sense, but because it sprang from sin and incites to sin.

Ming, J. (1908). Concupiscence. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm

If the reason is not developed then the ability to commit actual sin is excluded (age 8 age of reason for example). Yes I have observed infants. When reason is not developed then choices cannot be made based upon reason.

You can read my earlier posts, and for most recent post, doctrine statement (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma), see #379

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13984115&postcount=379
 
Good Morning, PR!
As with almost all heresies, it’s the demand for an “ONLY” where none is required*.
Did you see a demand for an “only”?
Thus, “God is merciful ONLY” is not part of our theology. God is ALSO “infinitely just”.
Now the work of divine justice always presupposes the work of mercy; and is founded thereupon

St. Thomas Aquinas
And “infinitely merciful” combined with “infinitely just” = hell. Eternally so.
This depends on the context, it depends on the way it is presented.
“Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever.”–Peter Kreeft
What reason does he have not turn to face the light? I have not observed a human who suffers, yet refuses to better himself unless he is caught up in addiction or enslaved by his passions. Look at the trend, PR. People suffer, they learn that something they are doing causes the suffering, and they change their ways. We can say this is due to grace, and grace abounds! Even other species learn from their suffering, as I saw yesterday a seal shift itself on an uncomfortable rock. It is not a stretch to say that by nature we, as all creatures, seek the good.

Yes, some people are slower learners; sometimes the suffering is so subtle that it takes years to come into awareness. These cases are the outliers, right? Do we not every day learn many, many things from small sufferings and errors? Do not unbaptized children do the same? Did Peter Kreeft experience knowing a person who refuses forever? He cannot have done so, he is only guessing based on a different set of observations, right?

Thanks. Gonna be gone for awhile. Always a pleasure to interact with you!

🙂
 
Catholic Encyclopedia

…the opposition between appetite and reason is natural in man, and that, though it be an imperfection, it is not a corruption of human nature. Nor have the inordinate desires (actual concupiscence) or the proneness to them (habitual concupiscence) the nature of sin; for sin, being the free and deliberate transgression of the law of God, can be only in the rational will; though it be true that they are temptations to sin, becoming the stronger and the more frequent the oftener they have been indulged.


The Council of Trent (Sess. V, e.v.) defines that by the grace of baptism the guilt of original sin is completely remitted and does not merely cease to be imputed to man. As to concupiscence the council declares that it remains in those that are baptized in order that they may struggle for the victory, but does no harm to those who resist it by the grace of God, and that it is called sin by St. Paul, not because it is sin formally and in the proper sense, but because it sprang from sin and incites to sin.

Ming, J. (1908). Concupiscence. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm

If the reason is not developed then the ability to commit actual sin is excluded (age 8 age of reason for example). Yes I have observed infants. When reason is not developed then choices cannot be made based upon reason.

You can read my earlier posts, and for most recent post, doctrine statement (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma), see #379

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13984115&postcount=379
Hi Vico,

The word “becoming” supports my point. A sin that becomes more more frequent when indulged is an addiction, and addiction is a matter of concupiscence. Yes, addiction tends to become stronger “the oftener they have been indulged”.

However, the word “becoming” implies a progression from a natural state in which the enslavement itself is not desired, but only the desire for the object, such as pleasure. Keep in mind that there are many in the history of the Church who believed that any seeking of pleasure was against God’s will, Vico. We have moved beyond that, correct?

I don’t see where what you presented supports for the statement that people are naturally inclined to think what is good is sin, and such inclination is always, or even ususally greater than an inclination to reason. What is indicated, and I agree with, is that as a person becomes more addicted, the inclination to a particular sin becomes ever stronger than their ability to reason.

We Catholics are not forbidden to observe that people are more inclined by nature to do what they think is good than by nature have an inclination to sin.
 
Good Morning Bob,
Not sure. Maybe I’m too smart for my own good, or maybe I’m too dumb to understand. Bugs in code. Everyone has them.

They had doubt about the teaching because

desire > conscience

Another bug in the software.
I observe that sometimes desire trumps conscience, but only when the desire is strong enough. So you see, the typical state is to be guided by conscience. Yes, it can be seen that when desire trumps conscience that such is a “bug”, but I can make the case that God intended this “bug” for our own benefit. Have you considered this possibility?
Yes, it is natural to think “me first” - that’s why God calls us to be supernatural - go beyond “me first” to “we first” to “you first”.
Is it not natural for a wolf to put its puppies first, and when necessary the well-being of its pack? You would not find our own nature as more self-destructive, would you, than that of wolves? To me, the “supernatural” comes into play when we start forgiving our enemies unconditionally or praying for the well-being of those who persecute us. We have to drive against our nature to do these things.
Narcissism is the belief that “Me first, nobody else in the world exists.”

Self-centered is “Me first, and other people do exist in the world”

Two big time different ways of thinking.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder involves arrogant behavior, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration-all of which must be consistently evident at work and in relationships.

psychologytoday.com/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder

For a person so self-aborbed, they truly believe that others exist, and they desperately need their admiration. If a person does not believe that others in the world do not exist, he is simply insane, correct?
How can I fear God properly if I don’t know him and can’t relate to him?
How do I know if God is out of touch (i.e. cannot be accessed no matter how much I try because I can never do it right, due to my spiritual autism) or I’m out of touch because I choose to do this (but wait, the code is buggy)
If the indoctrination were false, yes.
When it comes to spiritual things, God is infinitely merciful. Temporal things? Not so much.
I wouldn’t. But that’s how I think, which is inferior to how God thinks.
In some ways, I hate to say, I think people do better than God, in some limited cases.
For example, a human surgeon at least gives a patient anesthesia prior to doing the horrifically painful operation. God doesn’t do this, but is called the Great Physician.
I don’t know why anesthesia is a horrible idea in God’s eyes. If I need an operation to fix buggy code, I want the anesthesia. The fix will hurt!
Do you notice a pattern in your thoughts and words? We all have patterns:

vimeo.com/161957906

In contemplative prayer, we transcend the pattern by observing it.

Do you agree?

I’m going to be away from my computer for a couple weeks, Bob. I will get back to your responses though. Let me know what you think of the video.

Thanks again. A pleasure, as always!
 
Did you see a demand for an “only”?
Well, yes, I certainly did.

It was implied in the “God is merciful” statement, which, logically, excluded “God is just” (otherwise, what is your point regarding hell if it’s not that God is merciful only? If God is just, then all reasonable people can see the need for hell, else where does the person go who finds God’s love so odious?)
 
Hi Vico,

The word “becoming” supports my point. A sin that becomes more more frequent when indulged is an addiction, and addiction is a matter of concupiscence. Yes, addiction tends to become stronger “the oftener they have been indulged”.

However, the word “becoming” implies a progression from a natural state in which the enslavement itself is not desired, but only the desire for the object, such as pleasure. Keep in mind that there are many in the history of the Church who believed that any seeking of pleasure was against God’s will, Vico. We have moved beyond that, correct?

I don’t see where what you presented supports for the statement that people are naturally inclined to think what is good is sin, and such inclination is always, or even ususally greater than an inclination to reason. What is indicated, and I agree with, is that as a person becomes more addicted, the inclination to a particular sin becomes ever stronger than their ability to reason.

We Catholics are not forbidden to observe that people are more inclined by nature to do what they think is good than by nature have an inclination to sin.
The text speaks of the temptations becoming stronger.

At birth, due to concupiscence, man is more inclined by nature to do sin, because what they think is good is not the rational but the lower appetite. That is a teaching of the Church as posted before.

Concupiscence is not about seeking pleasure but about what is not rational. Some pleasures are not disordered.
 
Hi PRmerger, I am back from time away from my computer.
Well, yes, I certainly did.

It was implied in the “God is merciful” statement, which, logically, excluded “God is just” (otherwise, what is your point regarding hell if it’s not that God is merciful only? If God is just, then all reasonable people can see the need for hell, else where does the person go who finds God’s love so odious?)
Yes, of course, a just and loving God would allow a person to choose hell. Do you agree with the opinion of the priest who told us “If a person does choose hell, he only goes there screaming and kicking against God the whole way.”? I see in that opinion (which I agree with) an image of God who is infinitely merciful and just. Of course, God in that image is not carrying the person to hell, He is doing all He can to reverse the decision.

Does the above explain what I said somewhere about hell? Of course, a Judaical approach toward hell also makes sense in terms of God’s infinite mercy and justice, an opinion I hold and commented on. (I think that is what you were asking about.)
Why, the same reason you and I have. Namely: we prefer ourselves, our wills, our ways over God’s.
Peter Kreeft was describing a situation in which a person was choosing to suffer and remain suffering. What reasons would a person have in preferring to suffer when if he knows that there is an option not to? (This is not a rhetorical question, I am looking for your own reflections on this).

Going back to the OP, I think that the teachings of original sin explain the phenomena that regardless of our birth, we are all capable of doing great evil. This is a very simple and basic fact that an occasional Catholic in our history would deny. The Gospel continues to be very relevant in the world for all people.

Thanks for your response! 🙂
 
The text speaks of the temptations becoming stronger.

At birth, due to concupiscence, man is more inclined by nature to do sin, because what they think is good is not the rational but the lower appetite. That is a teaching of the Church as posted before.

Concupiscence is not about seeking pleasure but about what is not rational. Some pleasures are not disordered.
Good Morning, Vico

My statement: “We Catholics are not forbidden to observe that people are more inclined by nature to do what they think is good than by nature have an inclination to sin.” is still holding true here.

When a person seeks what is not rational, when it is an evil he is choosing, he does so because he is born ignorant (conscience undeveloped) and is capable of blindness. It is ignorance and blindness that allow for the inclination to do evil to actually happen. The greater inclination to do good remains, it is an inclination that is actualized when people are aware, and unencumbered by strong desire.

Thanks!
 
Good Morning, Vico

My statement: “We Catholics are not forbidden to observe that people are more inclined by nature to do what they think is good than by nature have an inclination to sin.” is still holding true here.

When a person seeks what is not rational, when it is an evil he is choosing, he does so because he is born ignorant (conscience undeveloped) and is capable of blindness. It is ignorance and blindness that allow for the inclination to do evil to actually happen. The greater inclination to do good remains, it is an inclination that is actualized when people are aware, and unencumbered by strong desire.

Thanks!
A person sins through ignorance, passion, and malice, not only through what you posted. If someone is unencumbered by strong desire, then concupiscence is neutralized and this happens through grace. The desire is not always sensual passion but may be irascible passion.

These are different ideas, “To be inclined by nature to”…:
  • do what is thought to be good.
  • do what is sinful.
  • do what is not sinful.
So the Church teaches that we are more inclined to do by nature what is sinful, due to concupiscence, which resulted by sin causing the loss of the preternatural gifts. Those gifts, being preternatural, are not natural to us.

To do what is thought to be good does not imply sin, but inclined by nature it does, due to concupiscence.

Possession of habitual (sanctifying) grace makes it possible to overcome concupiscence.

To do what is thought to be good could be sin or non sin.
 
A person sins through ignorance, passion, and malice, not only through what you posted. If someone is unencumbered by strong desire, then concupiscence is neutralized and this happens through grace. The desire is not always sensual passion but may be irascible passion.

These are different ideas, “To be inclined by nature to”…:
  • do what is thought to be good.
  • do what is sinful.
  • do what is not sinful.
So the Church teaches that we are more inclined to do by nature what is sinful, due to concupiscence, which resulted by sin causing the loss of the preternatural gifts. Those gifts, being preternatural, are not natural to us.

To do what is thought to be good does not imply sin, but inclined by nature it does, due to concupiscence.

Possession of habitual (sanctifying) grace makes it possible to overcome concupiscence.

To do what is thought to be good could be sin or non sin.
Good Morning Vico,

As I mentioned previously, “baptism by desire”, then, must be so prevalent as to make nearly indistinguishable the ability to overcome concupiscence of the sacramental baptized and those who have not experienced the sacrament.

We can find some hope in this prevalence, for we live in a world where so many of us have limited access to the Gospel.

God Bless. 🙂
 
Good Morning Vico,

As I mentioned previously, “baptism by desire”, then, must be so prevalent as to make nearly indistinguishable the ability to overcome concupiscence of the sacramental baptized and those who have not experienced the sacrament.

We can find some hope in this prevalence, for we live in a world where so many of us have limited access to the Gospel.

God Bless. 🙂
There are a small number of Catechumens compared to those that are not interested in the Christian faith and the other types of baptism.

Baptism of desire excludes all those there are baptized by water or by blood. Baptism of desire is indicated by desire. The desire is that of the Catechumen. The Compendium of the Catechism has:

Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire).
 
There are a small number of Catechumens compared to those that are not interested in the Christian faith and the other types of baptism.

Baptism of desire excludes all those there are baptized by water or by blood. Baptism of desire is indicated by desire. The desire is that of the Catechumen. The Compendium of the Catechism has:

Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire).
Hi Vico,

I know I have run across that doctrine before, but this time I took a hard look at it.

What is the “impulse of grace”? Where can I find more information about the “impulse”?

Thanks!
 
Hi Vico,

I know I have run across that doctrine before, but this time I took a hard look at it.

What is the “impulse of grace”? Where can I find more information about the “impulse”?

Thanks!
Impulse of grace = impetus or influence of grace.

And thanks for the link to Fr. Barron’s video on hell. 👍

He is a great, orthodox shepherd!
 
Hi Vico,

I know I have run across that doctrine before, but this time I took a hard look at it.

What is the “impulse of grace”? Where can I find more information about the “impulse”?

Thanks!
Impulse, noun (Collins Dictionary) 1. an impelling force or motion; thrust; impetus.

The dogmatic teaching of the Church is that is that mankind cannot by nature overcome sin but requires the grace of God, and God must make the first movement of grace, which is the (name removed by moderator)ulse. This counters Pelagianism (grace comes to everyone according to his natural merits) and Semi-Pelagianism (grace is not necessary for the first steps towards the Christian life or for final perseverance).
 
Impulse, noun (Collins Dictionary) 1. an impelling force or motion; thrust; impetus.

The dogmatic teaching of the Church is that is that mankind cannot by nature overcome sin but requires the grace of God, and God must make the first movement of grace, which is the (name removed by moderator)ulse. This counters Pelagianism (grace comes to everyone according to his natural merits) and Semi-Pelagianism (grace is not necessary for the first steps towards the Christian life or for final perseverance).
Thanks, Vico

There must be a fine line somewhere between the varieties of Pelagianism and the idea of “impulse”.

For example, we worship not a God who plays favorites:

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matt5:44-45

Therefore the impetus is not spared from anyone, correct, even though some may not respond to the impulse of grace?

So, Pelagianism says that grace comes from within, naturally vs. doctrine teaches of an “impulse of grace” that comes from without, supernaturally? Is that the distinction?

If so, it makes me wonder why there was so much fuss about Pelagianism. In light of the incredible wonder of all nature, including human nature, the distinction between natural and supernatural can be quite blurred.

Comments?
 
Thanks, Vico

There must be a fine line somewhere between the varieties of Pelagianism and the idea of “impulse”.

For example, we worship not a God who plays favorites:

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Matt5:44-45
Hello again, OneSheep. If I may: In this world God doesn’t play favorites-that’s the point; free will is allowed it’s sway, either for good or evil. In the next world, however, good is the only flavor allowed in, even as He desires all to draw near to him.
Therefore the impetus is not spared from anyone, correct, even though some may not respond to the impulse of grace?

So, Pelagianism says that grace comes from within, naturally vs. doctrine teaches of an “impulse of grace” that comes from without, supernaturally? Is that the distinction?

If so, it makes me wonder why there was so much fuss about Pelagianism. In light of the incredible wonder of all nature, including human nature, the distinction between natural and supernatural can be quite blurred.

Comments?
And yet the distinction between, say, humans beheading humans vs God’s ideal for man is not at all blurred.
 
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