Original Sin question

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You may wish to consider the possibility that, just as the early universe was this universe but very different, so too was early mankind. We can easily consider our early selves and even now, as apes, so I don’t see a problem. It has not been revealed how physically mankind came to flourish from its beginnings. This is for good reason. One reason might be that the the natural law which is relevant now, was not then. We find something similar in the creation of the physical universe, where it took a very long time before atoms and molecules came into existence according to current thinking. Ultimately, we are all brothers and sisters, descendants of Adam and Eve.
The major problem I see with your position: Adam and Eve don’t have a different nature from us. Since they have the same nature as us, this means that all actions that are inherently against our nature, like murder, anal intercourse, lying, etc., are wrong, and circumstance can justify them.

St. Augustine, above, for example, is basically arguing that incest is banned due to convention and circumstance, not nature. In the past when Man was still young, God and men didn’t ban incest, because he needed to procreate. Since the human race is now stable in numbers, such activity is no longer necessary.

St. Thomas, building on St. Augustine and the other Fathers, teaches that incest is wrong because it corrupts the relationship between family members, but that it is not unnatural in the sense that anal intercourse and even masturbation is unnatural (that is, anal intercourse and masturbation corrupt the sexual act. Incest doesn’t actually corrupt this, since the act is still one of male-female intercourse but instead perverts these vital personal relationships. So, I think Mr. PRmerger is correct: incest can be justified in extremely rare circumstances (the only justified circumstance being when at the beginning of Man).

This truth actually shines light on the actions of Lot’s daughters, who thought they were the only humans left, and so, given the circumstance, acted against the ban. We can see the daughters’ actions as an implicit support in the Sacred text itself of the Doctor of Grace’s theory on the procreation of early man. In other words, given Lot’s daughters reasoning for their actions, it is possible that the children of Adam and Eve used similar reasoning, especially because both events happen in the same book (and thus can be seen as corresponding to each other). If I recall correctly, Lot’s daughters are not even condemned for their actions in the text.

Anyway, this truth also terrifies me, because the logic of the sexual revolution leads to incest, and incest can be easily justified then by denying that sexual intercourse between family perverts their relationship, thus removing the natural law consideration mostly. In fact, we might hear fools saying that it brings them closer, just like they claim now that anal intercourse between men brings them closer 😦 But that’s another topic…

Christi pax,

Lucretius

PS: I have no idea why my smart phone capitalizes Incest :confused:
 
Really? Have we found the gene for that? Will genetic manipulation cure us? :extrahappy:

I think not, since they knew nothing about genes until rather recently.😉
I was thinking that as it’s transmitted by propagation then it came from the first two. So it’s in the genes…

But then I forgot that the church states that:

The transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. CCC 404

I don’t know why I try to…
 
And all farmers are men…:rolleyes:
You seem to be championing the position that women suffered more from the Fall than men.

“Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”

It would be incomplete to assume that the curse given to women did not also affect men, and vice versa.
I was thinking that as it’s transmitted by propagation then it came from the first two. So it’s in the genes…

But then I forgot that the church states that:

The transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. CCC 404

I don’t know why I try to…
I think it could be transmitted spiritually as well as any other method, but I agree, it is better left in mystery. It is more productive for us to focus on how to deal with it now that we have it.
 
No. It was a specific punishment meted out to women. Becuse of what Eve had specifically done. Yeah, Adam got slapped as well, but you suffer domination because of what Eve had done.

There’s no point in asking why it is so. Eve ate the fruit. And persuaded Adam to do so also. No way you can blame your punishment on him.

So you ask me why you are dominated? Well, there are two answers.

One is the natural order of things. Males are big and strong and you are not. We can procreate with umpteen partners for very many years and you cannot. We are a little more civilised these day, so we reach the point where I don’t actually ask my wife to get me a case of beer. But it’s the natural order, like it or not.

Two is…God commanded it. Genesis 3:16.

It seems that you go with the second option. I didn’t click the link, but no doubt it is repleat with stories of women suffering domestic violence.

So if you want the Catholic answer as to why you can’t leash your dog the first time or why men dominate you, it was God’s call. It is a punishment.
I actually see the punishment as an extension to the disharmony caused by sin. The original sin drove a wedge between God and Man, and by extension between men, and within a man himself. By ruining his relationship with God, he also ruined his relationship with his fellow man, and his relationship between the different aspects of his soul.

Marital relationships also suffered. Before, there was harmony between man and wife, but now there is disharmony, some of which can ruin the marriage. Now, when a married couple have a disagreement in which they cannot agree, a decision that is essential to the marriage itself, what do they do? They can’t get divorced, because not only does that break their vows, but also harms the children, so what can they do? A good, reasonable option would be have one be a “veto,” a religious, conventional, or independently decided person to break the tie.

But why the man, rather than the woman? I agree that some of this is due to convention and tradition, but I think there is some truth in the belief that men tend to be more rational than woman in certain situations, and thus better decision makers. C. S. Lewis, for example, thinks that men in general are more rational when mediating between society and his family, because they can more easily detach their emotions regarding their families in order to consider and resolve a conflict more rationally, while mothers have more trouble doing so (due her deeper emotional attachment to her children, which we see most clearly in the “mother bear” mentally. None of this is a bad thing in itself, of course: children need their mother bear 😉 It’s just that the intensity of protective emotions can cloud the intellect).

Now, I think that some “vetos” are better left to the woman, while others are better left to the man. For example, I think the woman should have more influence on how many children she plans to bare, due to the disproportionate sufferings she will have to endure (and I’m not just talking about childbirth here).

Anyway, this disharmony wouldn’t have existed before original sin, and so it makes sense that the punishment that a woman is to obey her husband would be due to original sin. But even still, before original sin, it made sense to make the male the dominate in the relationship, because of the nature of gender: masculinity is active, while femininity is passive, and so the husband would feel it more natural to do for the wife, and the wife would feel it more natural to obey the husband (Machiavelli made us think that it is better to be obeyed rather than obey, but humility teaches us otherwise). The Fall just made these roles much more necessary.

Furthermore, sin makes following the moral law painful and forced, rather than enjoyed and done through love (which is actually what Grace is supposed to do, write these Commandments on our heart, so that we can simple “love, and do what we will”), a woman would have found emotional contentment and joy in obeying her husband before the original sin (while the husband would have found emotional contentment and joy in sacrificing everything for his wife, instead of refusing to do so or groaning about doing so).

We end up seeing the idea of a man being dominate in a relationship as a man forcing a woman to do what she doesn’t want to, which is due to our dislike for virtue, especially humility (and this applies to both sexes). The original intention though, which Grace is destined to correct, is for a marriage to be like a graceful dance, where the man leads, and the woman follows suit, or to be like the relationship between a leader that serves for the good of his subordinates, and his subordinates who trust their leader.

Or to be like the relationship between Christ, who dies for the sake of His Church, and His Church who have faith and trust in Him.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
You seem to be championing the position that women suffered more from the Fall than men.

“Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”

It would be incomplete to assume that the curse given to women did not also affect men, and vice versa.

I think it could be transmitted spiritually as well as any other method, but I agree, it is better left in mystery. It is more productive for us to focus on how to deal with it now that we have it.
Ok, when women give birth men also feel the pain.

That’s fine, we all understand things in our own way 👍
 
Ok, when women give birth men also feel the pain.

That’s fine, we all understand things in our own way 👍
You must have a very low opinion of men if you think that they cannot suffer when watching their loves one’s suffer.

In the same way, woman have participated in the distored relationship with the earth suffered by Adam. Men suffer when they cannot get the earth to provide for their family. They suffer when their families are hungry and wanting no matter how much they toil.
 
You must have a very low opinion of men if you think that they cannot suffer when watching their loves one’s suffer.

In the same way, woman have participated in the distored relationship with the earth suffered by Adam. Men suffer when they cannot get the earth to provide for their family. They suffer when their families are hungry and wanting no matter how much they toil.
You are speaking of emotional pain, I’m speaking of physical pain only the woman can experience.

Men and women can suffer in all pains, except this one.

FTR :

I don’t have a very low opinion of men, I didn’t say anything like that. You have assumed it and are incorrect, so just to clear that up…
 
You are speaking of emotional pain, I’m speaking of physical pain only the woman can experience.

Men and women can suffer in all pains, except this one.

FTR :

I don’t have a very low opinion of men, I didn’t say anything like that. You have assumed it and are incorrect, so just to clear that up…
I am relieved!:bowdown:
 
No. It was a specific punishment meted out to women.
Only if you read it with a fundamentalist’s lens.

Read the through lens of Catholicism we see it as it should be seen: our original state was lost due to Adam and Eve’s sin.
Becuse of what Eve had specifically done. Yeah, Adam got slapped as well, but you suffer domination because of what Eve had done.
Scratch an atheist…
There’s no point in asking why it is so. Eve ate the fruit. And persuaded Adam to do so also. No way you can blame your punishment on him.
Again, this demonstrates an impoverished understanding of Catholic teaching on Original Sin.

No one is punished for the sins of Adam.

We are punished for our own sins.

Please read up a bit on Catholic teaching on Original Sin, and then we can chat.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
Only if you read it with a fundamentalist’s lens.

Read the through lens of Catholicism we see it as it should be seen: our original state was lost due to Adam and Eve’s sin.

Scratch an atheist…

Again, this demonstrates an impoverished understanding of Catholic teaching on Original Sin.

No one is punished for the sins of Adam.

We are punished for our own sins.

Please read up a bit on Catholic teaching on Original Sin, and then we can chat.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
This may come as a surprise:

In the developments of medieval doctrine, the loss of the Beatific Vision (poena damni) was understood to be the proper punishment for original sin, whereas the “torments of perpetual hell” constituted the punishment for mortal sins actually committed.[47] In the Middle Ages, the ecclesiastical magisterium affirmed more than once that those “who die in mortal sin” and those who die “with original sin only” receive “different punishments”.[48]

[47] Cf. INNOCENT III, Letter to Humbert, Archbishop of Arles “Maiores Ecclesiae causas” (DS 780): “Poena originalis peccati est carentia visionis Dei, actualis vero poena peccati est gehennae perpetuae cruciatus…” This theological tradition identified the “torments of hell” with afflictive pains both sensible and spiritual; cf. Thomas AQUINAS, IV Sent., dist. 44, q. 3, a. 3, qla 3; dist. 50, q. 2, a. 3.

[48] COUNCIL OF LYONS II, Profession of Faith for Michael Paleologus, DS 858; JOHN XXII, Letter to the Armenians “Nequaquam sine dolore”, DS 926; COUNCIL OF FLORENCE, Decree: “Laetentur Caeli”, DS 1306.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
 
This may come as a surprise:

In the developments of medieval doctrine, the loss of the Beatific Vision (poena damni) was understood to be the proper punishment for original sin, whereas the “torments of perpetual hell” constituted the punishment for mortal sins actually committed.[47] In the Middle Ages, the ecclesiastical magisterium affirmed more than once that those “who die in mortal sin” and those who die “with original sin only” receive “different punishments”.[48]

[47] Cf. INNOCENT III, Letter to Humbert, Archbishop of Arles “Maiores Ecclesiae causas” (DS 780): “Poena originalis peccati est carentia visionis Dei, actualis vero poena peccati est gehennae perpetuae cruciatus…” This theological tradition identified the “torments of hell” with afflictive pains both sensible and spiritual; cf. Thomas AQUINAS, IV Sent., dist. 44, q. 3, a. 3, qla 3; dist. 50, q. 2, a. 3.

[48] COUNCIL OF LYONS II, Profession of Faith for Michael Paleologus, DS 858; JOHN XXII, Letter to the Armenians “Nequaquam sine dolore”, DS 926; COUNCIL OF FLORENCE, Decree: “Laetentur Caeli”, DS 1306.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
St. Augustine believed also that the suffering of babes who died stained in original sin would be lesser and different than anyone who died ruined by his own mortal sins.

What is the Doctor’s views on righteous pagans who died before the Incarnation of the Gospel? Does anyone know? I think the fate of infants and the fate of righteous pagans should be similar, correct?

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
This may come as a surprise:

In the developments of medieval doctrine, the loss of the Beatific Vision (poena damni) was understood to be the proper punishment for original sin, whereas the “torments of perpetual hell” constituted the punishment for mortal sins actually committed.[47] In the Middle Ages, the ecclesiastical magisterium affirmed more than once that those “who die in mortal sin” and those who die “with original sin only” receive “different punishments”.[48]

[47] Cf. INNOCENT III, Letter to Humbert, Archbishop of Arles “Maiores Ecclesiae causas” (DS 780): “Poena originalis peccati est carentia visionis Dei, actualis vero poena peccati est gehennae perpetuae cruciatus…” This theological tradition identified the “torments of hell” with afflictive pains both sensible and spiritual; cf. Thomas AQUINAS, IV Sent., dist. 44, q. 3, a. 3, qla 3; dist. 50, q. 2, a. 3.

[48] COUNCIL OF LYONS II, Profession of Faith for Michael Paleologus, DS 858; JOHN XXII, Letter to the Armenians “Nequaquam sine dolore”, DS 926; COUNCIL OF FLORENCE, Decree: “Laetentur Caeli”, DS 1306.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
This is true.

I amend to say we are “punished” for the sin of Adam in the sense of a natural consequence: we no longer had access to the Beatific Vision.

But we bear no responsibility or guilt for the sins of Adam.
 
This is true.

I amend to say we are “punished” for the sin of Adam in the sense of a natural consequence: we no longer had access to the Beatific Vision.

But we bear no responsibility or guilt for the sins of Adam.
And you no longer have an equal partnership with men. It SPECIFICALLY says so in Genesis.

You have continuously asked why things are as they appear to be. Why things aren’t perfect. Including the relationship between men and women. You actually posted a link to indicate that specific problem.

And you insist that all problems are the result of original sin. Yet when I agree with you, when I give you the answer that you actually want, when I agree that that problem results from original sin and it is a punishment, decreed by God, there is so much back peddling that the tyres are melting.

Your views are so contradictory that I’m not exactly sure what you really believe.
 
One is the natural order of things. Males are big and strong and you are not. We can procreate with umpteen partners for very many years and you cannot. We are a little more civilised these day, so we reach the point where I don’t actually ask my wife to get me a case of beer. But it’s the natural order, like it or not
This sounds like a rather long-winded way of saying, “It’s just the way it is, luv”.

And no Scientist ever attacked a problem with that kind of thinking.

Imagine if Fleming had looked at that mold on his plate and said, “It’s just the way it is, luv”.

#nopenicillinfortheworld
#sigh
 
We are a little more civilised these day, so we reach the point where I don’t actually ask my wife to get me a case of beer.
What a peculiar comment.

I think the more enlightened and civilized paradigm is: I have no problem asking my wife to get me a case of beer. And she has no problem asking me to get her a case of beer.

Why in the world would anyone not want to ask his wife to get him something?
 
And you no longer have an equal partnership with men.
From the beginning it was not so.
It SPECIFICALLY says so in Genesis.
Let’s be consistent with the fundamentalist approach, Bradski, and I’d like to see you profess that you believe the God of the Bible has feathers.

After all, it SPECIFICALLY says so in Psalms:
He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.–Psalms 91:4
 
You have continuously asked why things are as they appear to be. Why things aren’t perfect. Including the relationship between men and women. You actually posted a link to indicate that specific problem.

And you insist that all problems are the result of original sin.
Yes.
Yet when I agree with you, when I give you the answer that you actually want, when I agree that that problem results from original sin and it is a punishment, decreed by God, there is so much back peddling that the tyres are melting.
Well, it’s not so much back-pedaling (not peddling. Ask Solmyr), but rather correcting your erroneous conclusion.

We are how we are because we lost that original grace that was given to us.

We are not punished for the sin of Adam, except as a natural consequence, similar to the “punishment” a child receives when his father is a gambler and squanders his child’s inheritance.
Your views are so contradictory that I’m not exactly sure what you really believe.
You would like it to be so, but I have been quite consistent.
 
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