Original Sin

[simpleas]

I’m trying now to think of a time that I committed a sin with thoughts of this is wrong and an offence to God. I can’t recall one at the minute, but its lead me to think on how A&E would or would not realise they had committed a sin, if we think of them as creatures like ourselves.
Yes they were warned, but do we think before we sin every time?

On one hand if they had not sinned they could never know what sin was, sometimes we say to people who have made a mistake in life if they don’t make mistakes how can they ever learn from them.

 

[OneSheep]

I’m trying now to think of a time that I committed a sin with thoughts of this is wrong and an offence to God.

As you probably know, “this is wrong” is not an end-all for “full knowledge”. Murder is wrong, but murder to protect someone is not. Destroying evil can be seen as “right”, but Hitler was destroying what he thought was evil. Hitler was blinded by resentment.

When compassion and empathy are our guide, and we have forgiven everyone, then all of the confusing applications are clarified. The law is “written in our hearts”.

I can’t recall one at the minute, but its lead me to think on how A&E would or would not realise they had committed a sin, if we think of them as creatures like ourselves.
Yes they were warned, but do we think before we sin every time?

A &E, if we take the story literally, may have been thinking, but they were probably blinded by desire for power and autonomy, among other issues.

On one hand if they had not sinned they could never know what sin was, sometimes we say to people who have made a mistake in life if they don’t make mistakes how can they ever learn from them.

True, and as it has been said before, did A & E know that their disobedience would cause (if we take the story literally) generations of grief and suffering? There is no evidence of such knowledge.

 

[grannymh]

I’m sorry, granny, we are simply not connecting here. I am asking for you to give me an example of any sin, mortal or not, that does not involve ignorance or blindness.

“Mortal Sin” is defined as taking place with full knowledge. I am asking you to give an example of such. When you do so, we can discuss it. In the mean time, we are going in circles. Please give a specific example of a sin that was committed with “full knowledge”.

Remember, granny, we have intellect but are not omniscient. In addition, we have free will, but our choices are limited to what we know. This is not denial, this is the truth. It is our nature to do good, because we have all been given a conscience. It is in our nature to love and be loved. The problem is our ignorance and blindness.

I affirm the Catholic teaching that each human person has a God-created soul. (CCC, 364-366) It is because of this rational spiritual soul (image of God) that we are able to know and love our Creator. I affirm the Catholic teaching that we are called to share by “knowledge and love” in God’s own life. This is our fundamental purpose. (CCC, 355-356)

Love refers back to the soul’s free will where we are capable of living in the state of Sanctifying Grace and also capable of choosing the state of Mortal Sin.

Knowledge refers back to our rational spiritual soul which does (according to the Catholic Church) have intellect, which does give us the capability to be master of our own acts with full knowledge. (CCC, 1730-1732)) Of course, we can train ourselves to be blind – but that does not remove the soul’s capabilities per se. Of course, there could be a factor that prevents full knowledge – but that does not remove the soul’s intellect per se.

Various attacks on the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation like to extrapolate exceptions to an universal conclusion that all humans have the problem of ignorance and blindness; therefore, there is no real Mortal Sin.

“Mortal Sin is a grave infraction of the law of God that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner (sanctifying grace), constituting a turn away from God.” (CCC, Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889)

Back in post 856, the “proposal” for belief in Mortal Sin depended on a personal search.
“As you may remember, I find no basis for “mortal sin”, because I’ve yet to find an example of people sinning when they know what they are doing.”

May I gently point out that the Catholic Church teaches that it is Divine Revelation that Mortal Sin exists. This is independent of one’s own personal need to find an example of people sinning when they know what they are doing. The ideas that Catholic doctrines regarding the state of Sanctifying Grace and the state of Mortal Sin may be downgraded can be a devastating invitation.

The reason I do not name an individual mortal sin is that I do not have God’s power to know if the three conditions for a Mortal Sin have been met. Instead of a made-up example, I give the Catholic teachings so that readers can deal with reality. On the other hand, Genesis 2: 15-17 demonstrates that it is possible for the first human to commit a “mortal” Sin without ever seeing one in action.

Today, we need the Catholic Church to guide us in our spiritual relationship with God. The graces of the Sacrament of Reconciliation are essential. That is why those who may not be completely knowledgeable about their Catholic Faith need to be very cautious about the presentation that God forgives our Mortal Sins unconditionally and somehow separate from any free will choice on our part.

We are not rocks who happen to fall into mortal sin.

Divine Revelation trumps.

 

[OneSheep]

Of course, we can train ourselves to be blind – but that does not remove the soul’s capabilities per se. Of course, there could be a factor that prevents full knowledge – but that does not remove the soul’s intellect per se.

I have never heard of training oneself to be blind. Possible, but why would we? Blindness is automatic. We can choose to ignore an item that we already are aware of, but this is not blindness, because the awareness is there.

The human condition is the factor that prevents full knowledge. We are born ignorant.

Various attacks on the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation like to extrapolate exceptions to an universal conclusion that all humans have the problem of ignorance and blindness; therefore, there is no real Mortal Sin.

Understanding that sin is a matter of ignorance and blindness does not attack the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

The reason I do not name an individual mortal sin is that I do not have God’s power to know if the three conditions for a Mortal Sin have been met. Instead of a made-up example, I give the Catholic teachings so that readers can deal with reality. On the other hand, Genesis 2: 15-17 demonstrates that it is possible for the first human to commit a “mortal” Sin without ever seeing one in action.

So, we have an intellect that allows us to know sin, but we do not have an intellect that allows us to understand people’s motivations? We all have the power to understand the motivations, blindness, and ignorance of people. Jesus saw blindness from the cross. He saw the blindness of the Pharisees. We can see blindness and/or ignorance in all criminal activity.

I am not asking you to determine if a sin is “mortal”. I am asking you to provide an example of any hurtful act that is done without the factor of blindness or ignorance. Please, stop the red herrings. You may think of one, and we can take it from there.

 

[grannymh]

I am not asking you to determine if a sin is “mortal”. I am asking you to provide an example of any hurtful act that is done without the factor of blindness or ignorance. Please, stop the red herrings. You may think of one, and we can take it from there.

For readers’ clarification, the red herrings refer to the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *My sincere suggestion is to check out the references to this universal Catechism.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

I am sure you know by now that every hurtful act can be mediated by the proposed blindness and/or ignorance problem. Thus, readers gain nothing from the exercise of my describing any hurtful act. In addition, there is the possible invite to slip away from the reality that the state of Sanctifying Grace and the state of Mortal Sin are an actual either - or situation which is dependent on human choice, the kind taught by Catholicism.

 

[simpleas]

“People who do not believe in God could still get to heaven” is a real puzzlement of a proposal, no matter who proposes it. I trashed three drafts trying to figure it out before procrastinating to today.

:newidea: Finally…

To understand how people who do not believe in God could still get to heaven, one has to apply the old journalism mantra, Who? How? What? When? Where? Why? For this puzzlement, What, How, and Who will solve it.

This puzzlement has two completely different situations and thus two different answers to What. The first What is the situation of a person living on earth. The second What is the place called heaven which is definitely not the same as our lovable earth.

The first What also describes the person’s nature which is designed by God so that each individual can freely attain God’s Beatific Vision in heaven. The How is that we are in the image of God. Since we are spiritual, we have been given the opportunity to share in God’s spiritual life.

When it comes to Who, it becomes necessary to recognize God as being in charge of heaven and therefore He, as the Creator, has every right to determine the conditions for human creatures to enter His domain.

So far, so good?

The media’s story about not believing in God and still getting into heaven would be ruined if anyone bothered to check out the actual heaven conditions as taught in Catholicism. For example, one needs to be in the state of Sanctifying Grace to get through those pearly gates.

Humans, by their nature, have the innate ability to choose between the two situations verified in the opening of this reply. It should be obvious that a person, in the environment of earth, cannot watch football on TV and simultaneously be beyond his earthly environment in heaven’s eternal joy. Therefore, the reality is that what looks like a single proposition sentence actually contains an either - or situation.

I am sure someone will point out that the second isolated part of the prime time sound bite has these words: “could still get to heaven.” Unfortunately, because of lack of interest in the real Original Sin, there is a lack of understanding the difference between a person in the state of Sanctifying Grace and a person in the state of Mortal Sin.
The Catholic teaching is that “could still get to heaven” directly depends on the condition or state of the person’s soul while on earth.

In his love and respect for all humans, Pope Francis deftly left out the “responsibility conditions” for not believing in God. This is in keeping with Catholicism since we do not always know everything about an individual. The beauty of the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation, properly accomplished, is that it assures us that we have been forgiven. With God’s unconditional love, Pope Francis opened the door to all peoples and then offered the possibility of choosing to believe in God. Once people can understand that being in heaven requires the basic condition of a personal conversion (via the Sacrament of Reconciliation) from being in the state of Mortal Sin to the state of Sanctifying Grace – from not believing in God to believing in God – then one can understand why not believing in God is really an either - or situation when coupled with an opposite situation such as believing in God’s heaven of joy eternal.

We need to pray for conversions of people stuck in Mortal Sin. Maybe it will be the magnificent Alaskan mountains which will touch someone’s soul so that the person realizes the power and beauty of God existence and then turns back to Him.
Maybe it will be a random act of kindness which will be a light to a soul in darkness.
Even when we are in the state of Sanctifying Grace, we need to “convert” ourselves away from those annoying venial sins.

Thanks for that

A similair question would be about baptism. Even those not baptised can enter heaven, depending on how they live their lives, but I’m completely lost as to how this can be. O.S is wiped away when we are baptised, ok if unfortunately a child dies before being baptised we trust in God that he will take care of the child. But what of adults who go through life sinning as we would believe it, and not even had O.S wiped away?

Is it right that a person can not receive confession if they have not been baptised?

So even if you have never been baptised, and don’t believe in Jesus, as long as you have a clean soul, (not sure how if the O.S is still there?) then you can still be received into the light of God?
If this can be, why are we catholics made to believe we are wounded human creatures in Gods eyes and we need the church to help save our souls?
In away I am grateful I have been brought up catholic, just lately there seems much confusing messages from everywhere about how we should follow our faith, and that even those who don’t are the same anyway, so whats the point…

 

[simpleas]

Yes. To me, we can certainly ignore God, or not put effort to be in relation with God, but the image of the prodigal son’s Father is one of open arms. In addition, without God, we are nothing, non-existence.

I take a panentheistic approach. God is not everything, pantheism, or then we would have no autonomy whatsoever. But, to me, God is in everything.

CCC 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent

As we have been discussing, such mortal sin involves “full knowledge”, but the way I see it, sin does not occur when people have full knowledge. You and I have been working on this, and we may need to take on some more examples in order to be sure.

All sin involves ignorance or blindness. As far as I have been able to discern, we never knowingly choose to resist God. The people who hung Jesus did not knowingly choose to resist God, they thought they were doing a good thing, the right thing.

If this works for you, great! This is the use of fear in to scare us into repentance. If fear is what it takes, then that is a good fear. Go with that.

As you may remember, I don’t see that God takes offense. When we choose the wrong words or actions, these are predictable events that are the logical outcome when we are blind and/or ignorant. Would an all-knowing God, fully prepared for such sin, react negatively? Did not God make the choice to create us fully knowing every sin we would ever commit? He did, and He created us anyway, and loves us anyway.

Or does God know that He is going to be angry a billion or so times today, and again tomorrow and again the next day? I know, God is unfathomable, but that is a lot of anger. I can look upon most sin and not get angry, I can see it as predictable and understand. God has to be at least as understanding as I am, IMO.

Sin to me seems more to do with our desire to want or control something/one. We can have full knowledge of something, but the desire overrides that and so sin happens.

I didn’t say I feared God, I would be feeling bad enough to go and confess. The way I was brought up learning good from bad, was I was told very evil people went to hell, I was never told I would go to hell for being bad. But if we hurt another through word or deed then we hurt Jesus, and so not wanting to hurt jesus this would always help me to try and be nice to my friends/family.
In fact I didn’t really fear God until I came across CAF!
I don’t fear God now, I fear that I’m in a state of confusion and it does affect my relationship now with Jesus.

 

[OneSheep]

Sin to me seems more to do with our desire to want or control something/one. We can have full knowledge of something, but the desire overrides that and so sin happens.

I’m not sure I have “full knowledge” of anything. Probably not. Desire to be in control is a good thing, otherwise we would simply wither away and die. It took me quite awhile to admit I wanted to be in control, and that admission finally came when I read Glasser, that such a desire was okay. I was in big denial about it, it took a lot of humility to admit that I want to be in control.

And yes, I agree, all desires can potentially blind us. This also took some time for me to painfully admit. Strangely, it isn’t until after I go to the pains to admit my own shortcomings that it dawns on me that even my shortcomings are gifts from a beneficent Father. They really aren’t shortcomings. To me, however, sin never “just happens”, it always involves a choice on my part, even though I may not realize I am making a choice. For me, sometimes, even depression is a choice rather than a reaction.

I didn’t say I feared God, I would be feeling bad enough to go and confess. The way I was brought up learning good from bad, was I was told very evil people went to hell, I was never told I would go to hell for being bad. But if we hurt another through word or deed then we hurt Jesus, and so not wanting to hurt jesus this would always help me to try and be nice to my friends/family.
In fact I didn’t really fear God until I came across CAF!
I don’t fear God now, I fear that I’m in a state of confusion and it does affect my relationship now with Jesus.

Mark Twain (American satirist) on Hawaiians:

“How sad it is to think of the multitudes who have gone to their graves in this beautiful island and never knew there was a hell.”

Confusion is an easy state, if one is aware of it, and if it is fairly temporary. Are you saying that you fear Jesus now, and did not before? I am not sure what you mean by “affect”.

There is nothing controversial about loving, forgiving, and serving people. Everyone can agree on that. And don’t forget this:

Isaiah 49:

15 "Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! 16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands...

I am listening to some Celtic Christmas music, anticipating the birth, sitting near my wonderful wife while she does schoolwork. The fireplace is glowing, we are going to get a freeze tonight. I rest, and I pray that you find a path that gives you freedom and rest. God Bless.

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks for that

A similair question would be about baptism. Even those not baptised can enter heaven, depending on how they live their lives, but I’m completely lost as to how this can be. O.S is wiped away when we are baptised, ok if unfortunately a child dies before being baptised we trust in God that he will take care of the child. But what of adults who go through life sinning as we would believe it, and not even had O.S wiped away?

If nothing else, remember that God is a loving God, and remember that with God, all things are possible. A loving possible.

Is it right that a person can not receive confession if they have not been baptised?

So even if you have never been baptised, and don’t believe in Jesus, as long as you have a clean soul, (not sure how if the O.S is still there?) then you can still be received into the light of God?
If this can be, why are we catholics made to believe we are wounded human creatures in Gods eyes and we need the church to help save our souls?
In away I am grateful I have been brought up catholic, just lately there seems much confusing messages from everywhere about how we should follow our faith, and that even those who don’t are the same anyway, so whats the point…

The point is that we all need community. The Church is our place of communion, a place where relationships between Christians is supposed to happen. “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

If faith has always meant jumping through the right hoops in order to get the Big Reward, such a faith will not be sustainable.

Do you know what drives my faith? Service. My anchor statement, when all else fails, is “If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.” You seem to be one of those “part of the solution” people. Go, make the Kingdom happen, make it real.

 

[simpleas]

I’m not sure I have “full knowledge” of anything. Probably not. Desire to be in control is a good thing, otherwise we would simply wither away and die. It took me quite awhile to admit I wanted to be in control, and that admission finally came when I read Glasser, that such a desire was okay. I was in big denial about it, it took a lot of humility to admit that I want to be in control.

And yes, I agree, all desires can potentially blind us. This also took some time for me to painfully admit. Strangely, it isn’t until after I go to the pains to admit my own shortcomings that it dawns on me that even my shortcomings are gifts from a beneficent Father. They really aren’t shortcomings. To me, however, sin never “just happens”, it always involves a choice on my part, even though I may not realize I am making a choice. For me, sometimes, even depression is a choice rather than a reaction.

Mark Twain (American satirist) on Hawaiians:

“How sad it is to think of the multitudes who have gone to their graves in this beautiful island and never knew there was a hell.”

Confusion is an easy state, if one is aware of it, and if it is fairly temporary. Are you saying that you fear Jesus now, and did not before? I am not sure what you mean by “affect”.

There is nothing controversial about loving, forgiving, and serving people. Everyone can agree on that. And don’t forget this:

Isaiah 49:

15 "Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! 16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands...

I am listening to some Celtic Christmas music, anticipating the birth, sitting near my wonderful wife while she does schoolwork. The fireplace is glowing, we are going to get a freeze tonight. I rest, and I pray that you find a path that gives you freedom and rest. God Bless.

Thank you for your thought and prayer, means alot

*Confusion is an easy state, if one is aware of it, and if it is fairly temporary. Are you saying that you fear Jesus now, and did not before? I am not sure what you mean by “affect”. *

Well my confused state is slowly repairing itself, afew months ago I thought I’d never get back to thinking and feeling the way I did, but seeing how many other people on caf are confused or have questions was a comfort.
I went through a period where I thought in all the years I have believed in Jesus the way that was natural to me, somehow i had it all wrong. Thought how I saw God and how God saw me was very different from what alot of catholics actually think. So yes fear crept in and then confusion, even sitting in church and during mass made me very anxious and I thought my hand was going to lose the tiny grip I had left of Gods hand.

Does that make any sense?

The knowledge thing, I don’t know. Probably depends on what we would be talking about, but I seem to view how leaders in some countries know what they do, how it effects people, but because they desire power, money etc they continue…

 

[simpleas]

If nothing else, remember that God is a loving God, and remember that with God, all things are possible. A loving possible.

The point is that we all need community. The Church is our place of communion, a place where relationships between Christians is supposed to happen. “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

If faith has always meant jumping through the right hoops in order to get the Big Reward, such a faith will not be sustainable.

Do you know what drives my faith? Service. My anchor statement, when all else fails, is “If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.” You seem to be one of those “part of the solution” people. Go, make the Kingdom happen, make it real.

But isn’t some of what you say like saying we don’t really need the sacraments in order to be saved?
Many people prefer spiritual religion, believing in a divine deity, but to believe in catholicism is meant to be the correct and only way to God.

Anyone can love and know God, I know that if all the churches disappeared today, God would still be in my mind/heart.

 

[grannymh]

I have never heard of training oneself to be blind. Possible, but why would we? Blindness is automatic. We can choose to ignore an item that we already are aware of, but this is not blindness, because the awareness is there.

The human condition is the factor that prevents full knowledge. We are born ignorant.

The above is the response to post 866.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11459256&postcount=866
The particular item which was addressed is this.
“Of course, we can train ourselves to be blind – but that does not remove the soul’s capabilities per se. Of course, there could be a factor that prevents full knowledge – but that does not remove the soul’s intellect per se.”
As one can observe above at the top, OneSheep’s response concludes that “Blindness is automatic.” and “We are born ignorant.”

Pardon me, but I find that conclusion insulting to the human race. It is especially insulting to my parents, to my children, and to my grannychildren.

Naturally, I forgive OneSheep.

But, my forgiveness of OneSheep does change the fact that my parents, my children, my grannychildren, my friends, my enemies, and myself now have the pain of being maligned. On the other hand, in fairness, I must consider the idea that what is being preached to readers, “Blindness is automatic.” and “We are born ignorant.” may be true. Therefore, we need to examine the source for this scandal.

Because I really like the Catholic Church, I choose it as my source for knowledge about humans.

Catholicism begins with the fundamental position that there is a God Who is the Creator. This Creator has interacted with humans since the beginning of human history. (Genesis 1: 27-28). Fortunately, for humans, Catholicism goes straight to the heart of the human condition by claiming that human nature is an unique unification of both the spiritual and material worlds. (CCC, 355-358; CCC, 364-366; CCC, 382; CCC, 1730) What makes all this important is that we have a rational intellect and free will, both needed in our dependence on our Creator.

What is truly amazing about our dependence on our Creator is that our Creator continually calls us to share, by knowledge and love, in His own life here on earth and ultimately in the eternity of heaven. Fortunately, for humans, the Catholic Church does not stop with the first three chapters of Genesis. It finds the fulfillment of Genesis 3: 15 in Jesus Christ. The same Jesus Christ Who is present in the Catholic Eucharist. “In reality it is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear.” (CCC, 359) Please note that the smaller print in CCC, 359 is supporting information from St. Peter Chrysologus. And the smaller print information in CCC, 1730 is from St. Irenaeus.

Certainly, we cannot attribute blindness or ignorance about human nature to its Creator Who is God. God knew full well the problems of being a creature with one foot in the material world and the other in the spiritual world. Yes, I know that the “one foot” analogy is absolutely not philosophically or theologically correct. It just seems that the analogy accounts for the fact that we face the differences between material influences and spiritual influences. Maybe I should give up analogies.

What I am trying to get across is that the Catholic Church source recognizes the problems current humans encounter. That is why we have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Catholicism doesn’t teach that we came into this world automatically blind and ignorant. Catholicism teaches that all of us are born with the spiritual resources of a functioning intellect and the freedom of choice. However, because of our lovable wounded nature (loved by God) we can sideways think and choose – instead of aiming for the “narrow gate”. (Matthew 7: 13)

While it is possible that physical or mental conditions can alter the full external exercising of intellect and will, that does not alter the spiritual soul per se.

Because the above citations are based in some manner on Divine Revelation as preserved in Catholic Church doctrines properly defined, guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, I maintain that “Blindness is automatic.” and “We are born ignorant.” does not apply to the human race.

Therefore, the source for the blindness/ignorant scandal is not the Catholic Church.

 

[OneSheep]

Thank you for your thought and prayer, means alot

*Confusion is an easy state, if one is aware of it, and if it is fairly temporary. Are you saying that you fear Jesus now, and did not before? I am not sure what you mean by “affect”. *

Well my confused state is slowly repairing itself, afew months ago I thought I’d never get back to thinking and feeling the way I did, but seeing how many other people on caf are confused or have questions was a comfort.
I went through a period where I thought in all the years I have believed in Jesus the way that was natural to me, somehow i had it all wrong. Thought how I saw God and how God saw me was very different from what alot of catholics actually think. So yes fear crept in and then confusion, even sitting in church and during mass made me very anxious and I thought my hand was going to lose the tiny grip I had left of Gods hand.

Spiritual growth happens. To me, I will never be able to retrieve the simple relationship I had with God as a child because our relationship is deeper now. I am less fearful now, not more, I am much, much more aware of His presence all around me, especially in other people, all people, even those leaders whose actions we sometimes despise.

Does that make any sense?

I am still having to do a little guessing here. Do you find comfort in black and white thinking, where these are all the “good” people, and these are all “bad” people? If so, we cannot just “drop” that thinking, it will slowly drift away as we forgive those we see as “bad”. On the other hand, if stuff posted on the CAF gives you the impression that you are not as good a person as you thought you were, perhaps those items should be looked at with some scrutiny.

I have always been taught that faith is the opposite of fear. God sees you with love, period, not condemnation.

The knowledge thing, I don’t know. Probably depends on what we would be talking about, but I seem to view how leaders in some countries know what they do, how it effects people, but because they desire power, money etc they continue…

“Knowing” is more than a set of facts. The people who hung Jesus could possibly say that Jesus was a man, but was he a man of value? To them, absolutely not. I’m not sure which leaders you are talking about, but yes, the desire for power blinds their empathy. Try to think of a situation where you wanted something very badly, but someone else was stopping that from happening. Did you value that person when they were standing in the way?

Do you know any alcoholics? When we are addicted, we do not value the person who stops us from getting booze. Power can also be addicting.

But those are the extremes. All of us experience the more subtle resentment we feel toward people who stand in our way, and blindness, blocked empathy, comes with resentment.

I am not a big fan of the Hobbit, but I think the character Gollum reflects this aspect of ourselves. A question to ask is, “why did God give us this capacity for blindness?”. There is a reason why our beneficent God would do so.

 

[OneSheep]

The above is the response to post 866.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11459256&postcount=866
The particular item which was addressed is this.
“Of course, we can train ourselves to be blind – but that does not remove the soul’s capabilities per se. Of course, there could be a factor that prevents full knowledge – but that does not remove the soul’s intellect per se.”
As one can observe above at the top, OneSheep’s response concludes that “Blindness is automatic.” and “We are born ignorant.”

Pardon me, but I find that conclusion insulting to the human race. It is especially insulting to my parents, to my children, and to my grannychildren.

Naturally, I forgive OneSheep.

Thank you for forgiving me.

I will address the rest of you post later, but first I would like to ask for an answer on something.

When you read “blindness is automatic”, did you see me as a wonderful, beautiful, lovable creation of God? I am not talking about after you forgave me. I am talking about at that moment, when you felt angry.

 

[OneSheep]

But isn’t some of what you say like saying we don’t really need the sacraments in order to be saved?
Many people prefer spiritual religion, believing in a divine deity, but to believe in catholicism is meant to be the correct and only way to God.

Anyone can love and know God, I know that if all the churches disappeared today, God would still be in my mind/heart.

All the buildings could disappear, but there would still be Church. The Church is the body. Your statement is one of faith.

From the CCC:
1084 “Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.

Notice the words “make present efficaciously”. The words do not say “cause”. Sacraments, in themselves, are signs. Grace comes from God. “Efficacious” means “producing or capable of producing”. We go through the sacrament of reconciliation, but the sacrament itself may or may not “produce” reconciliation, as one can read from those who suffer scrupulosity. The sacrament is a sign that reconciliation has happened, will happen, or it may even happen at the very moment of confession to a priest. This is the catechism I received.

I very much believe in the sacraments according to the catechism I received. As far as non-believers going to heaven, again, grace comes from God. Is anyone capable of knowing that the God of infinite love would withhold grace from any of His creatures? No. Remember, with God all things are possible. A loving possible. God is Love.

 

[grannymh]

Thank you for forgiving me.

I will address the rest of you post later, but first I would like to ask for an answer on something.

When you read “blindness is automatic”, did you see me as a wonderful, beautiful, lovable creation of God? I am not talking about after you forgave me. I am talking about at that moment, when you felt angry.

Of course, I saw you as a wonderful, (have to get a closer look about beautiful ) lovable creation of God. My angry feeling was that of sadness. Sadness because the human race had been insulted and sadness about the source of that insult. That is why, whatever emotion was present, I had to locate the “source”. In post 875, I eliminated the Catholic Church as a source.

Even if I were extremely angry instead of being angry/sad, I still recognize that you, as a human being, are worthy of profound respect. In my old neighborhood, anger was seen in many forms. Some of those forms are with me in old age. However, my anger mistakes do not take away your value in God’s love. You will always be worthy of profound respect.

When the fog lifts, I will be traveling.

 

[simpleas]

Spiritual growth happens. To me, I will never be able to retrieve the simple relationship I had with God as a child because our relationship is deeper now. I am less fearful now, not more, I am much, much more aware of His presence all around me, especially in other people, all people, even those leaders whose actions we sometimes despise.

I am still having to do a little guessing here. Do you find comfort in black and white thinking, where these are all the “good” people, and these are all “bad” people? If so, we cannot just “drop” that thinking, it will slowly drift away as we forgive those we see as “bad”. On the other hand, if stuff posted on the CAF gives you the impression that you are not as good a person as you thought you were, perhaps those items should be looked at with some scrutiny.

I have always been taught that faith is the opposite of fear. God sees you with love, period, not condemnation.

“Knowing” is more than a set of facts. The people who hung Jesus could possibly say that Jesus was a man, but was he a man of value? To them, absolutely not. I’m not sure which leaders you are talking about, but yes, the desire for power blinds their empathy. Try to think of a situation where you wanted something very badly, but someone else was stopping that from happening. Did you value that person when they were standing in the way?

Do you know any alcoholics? When we are addicted, we do not value the person who stops us from getting booze. Power can also be addicting.

But those are the extremes. All of us experience the more subtle resentment we feel toward people who stand in our way, and blindness, blocked empathy, comes with resentment.

I am not a big fan of the Hobbit, but I think the character Gollum reflects this aspect of ourselves. A question to ask is, “why did God give us this capacity for blindness?”. There is a reason why our beneficent God would do so.

No I don’t see everything as black and white, there are many grey area’s. I learnt not to “judge a book by its cover” early on. But yes I’ve resented people, mostly who i’ve worked with, who I could see as selfish, lazy, but always got their own way and I and others had to put up with them. Took a while but I learnt to allow the tension to drift from me. But I wouldn’t want to kill them to get them out of my way!! Thankfully i’m self employed now! haha.

I’ve known a few alcoholics, it can be very difficult to understand something which you have not experienced.

Do you know the reason why God gave us blindness?

 

[simpleas]

All the buildings could disappear, but there would still be Church. The Church is the body. Your statement is one of faith.

From the CCC:
1084 “Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.

Notice the words “make present efficaciously”. The words do not say “cause”. Sacraments, in themselves, are signs. Grace comes from God. “Efficacious” means “producing or capable of producing”. We go through the sacrament of reconciliation, but the sacrament itself may or may not “produce” reconciliation, as one can read from those who suffer scrupulosity. The sacrament is a sign that reconciliation has happened, will happen, or it may even happen at the very moment of confession to a priest. This is the catechism I received.

I very much believe in the sacraments according to the catechism I received. As far as non-believers going to heaven, again, grace comes from God. Is anyone capable of knowing that the God of infinite love would withhold grace from any of His creatures? No. Remember, with God all things are possible. A loving possible. God is Love.

Thanks for clearing that up.

If God is only love, has the teaching from the beginning been alittle wrong? I know the church has made its mistakes through the years etc, and there is alot more I need to learn, but if the God we know now loved us so much the fall would never have happened, thats my own struggle to accept.
Its like I haven’t found that missing link that helps me accept such a loving God, who was displeased at some point in our history enough to take away all we were promised, and then leaves us to have to believe in order to get to the promised heaven.

I sometimes think God came to this earth created all and then left us to it! And we have fought amongst ourselves trying to prove who God is, or whos God is real…

I think if I can see beyond human knowledge if thats possible, i might become more spiritual and find my own path.

 

[grannymh]

If God is only love, has the teaching from the beginning been alittle wrong? I know the church has made its mistakes through the years etc, and there is alot more I need to learn, but if the God we know now loved us so much the fall would never have happened, thats my own struggle to accept.

The missing link is
first find the reasons God loved Adam and then determine how or the way God loved Adam. There are no wrong answers. So, please share whatever comes to your mind or your thoughts on spirituality since the Creator is Pure Spirit without restrictions.

 

[OneSheep]

Of course, I saw you as a wonderful, (have to get a closer look about beautiful ) lovable creation of God. My angry feeling was that of sadness. Sadness because the human race had been insulted and sadness about the source of that insult. That is why, whatever emotion was present, I had to locate the “source”. In post 875, I eliminated the Catholic Church as a source.

Even if I were extremely angry instead of being angry/sad, I still recognize that you, as a human being, are worthy of profound respect. In my old neighborhood, anger was seen in many forms. Some of those forms are with me in old age. However, my anger mistakes do not take away your value in God’s love. You will always be worthy of profound respect.

When the fog lifts, I will be traveling.

Angry feeling of sadness? When I get angry at someone, I do not see the person’s value at the moment. When I feel resentment, a person’s value to me is perceived to be equal to so much doggy doodoo.

I dunno. I did not hear the sad. I heard the anger, and we sometimes express anger in by saying “it is sad when…”. Do you ever perceive anyone as having a low value? Are the words “jerk” “idiot” “moron” “evil” (referring to a person) “worthless” etc. absent from your vocabulary and/or thoughts? Your use of “sad” in that other post sounded fairly biting. I can relate to the resentment. But sadness? When someone says something I find insulting, I do not feel sad, I feel anger and resentment.

And really, if what you felt was sadness, what reason was there to forgive? Are you sure you did you not hold something against me? It sure sounded like it.

Of course, you are dedicated to respecting others, and I appreciate that. But when we get that notion in our head that someone is equal to one of the negative words I said above, our empathy is automatically blocked. We are blinded by resentment and anger. We don’t decide to think negatively about someone and our empathy is blocked, it is a natural reaction, to me, a reaction from our conscience.

Did you watch the movie, the Green Mile? A cruel guard was punished by the inmate with special powers. People took joy in this part. We love to see those we resent “get their due”. But in order for such joy to happen, our empathy has to be blocked.