Original Sin

[OneSheep]

One of the most interesting things about the fluff surrounding Original Sin, conscience, and forgiveness is the popular speculation that the first human was minus intellect and will.

We have no scriptural evidence that Adam was aware that his actions would impact billions of people. Jewish people do not believe in “original sin”, and their faith appears to be uninhibited.

God said, “Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Jesus’ insight, seeing the blindness, the lack of awareness, is a means by which we can forgive all sin, for blindness and ignorance are the primary ingredient in ALL sin. Please feel free to provide a counterexample, and we can discuss it.

Is this “popular speculation”? This is news to me. I speak as one person trying to make sense of it all in the context of God’s unconditional love. If unconditional love and forgiveness is becoming popular, then praise God!

 

[OneSheep]

Can i ask if you believe the church teaching about satan being at work in the world? We are told he can influence our thoughts therefore giving us the temption to sin.
I know people who don’t practise our faith as they don’t believe in “satan” but believe that there is good and bad in everyone. As a catholic we are taught about satans lies etc, so i just wondered what you think?

Do you really know people who don’t practise the faith because they don’t believe in satan? That is a shame. There should be room in the Church for those who do not believe in satan. A person can love Jesus and the Church and be an incredible servant to the poor and downtrodden and not believe in satan.

Now as far as believing that there is “good and bad in everyone”, do you believe this? If so, what is the “bad” part? If you have trouble pinning that down, we could discuss a specific sin, and look for the responsible “part” of ourselves.

 

[grannymh]

We have no scriptural evidence that Adam was aware that his actions would impact billions of people. Jewish people do not believe in “original sin”, and their faith appears to be uninhibited.

God said, “Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Jesus’ insight, seeing the blindness, the lack of awareness, is a means by which we can forgive all sin, for blindness and ignorance are the primary ingredient in ALL sin. Please feel free to provide a counterexample, and we can discuss it.

Is this “popular speculation”? This is news to me. I speak as one person trying to make sense of it all in the context of God’s unconditional love. If unconditional love and forgiveness is becoming popular, then praise God!

Request:
Please feel free to provide a counterexample, and we can discuss it.

Reply:
My counterexample is Divine Revelation as properly defined and duly proclaimed by the Catholic Church. (CCC, 66-67; CCC, 84-85; CCC, 94-95; Chapter 14 of the Gospel of John)

Question:
Is this “popular speculation”? This is news to me.

Reply:
As a clarification, this is the sentence which contains “popular speculation”. It is in my post 291 above.
“One of the most interesting things about the fluff surrounding Original Sin, conscience, and forgiveness is the popular speculation that the first human was minus intellect and will.”
It is understandable that many people are not aware of the current Popular Speculation that “the first human was minus intellect and will” and its versions. Here on CAF, one can learn about this speculation(s) in various descriptions in a variety of threads. When one gets to the nitty-gritty of “intellect and will”, one finds the spiritual rational soul.

It is because of Adam’s spiritual rational soul that it is possible to connect Original Sin to modern spirituality.

 

[BobCatholic]

One of the most interesting things about the fluff surrounding Original Sin, conscience, and forgiveness is the popular speculation that the first human was minus intellect and will…

Actually I see people arguing that Adam and Eve were created perfectly, which is not the case.

They were either fearful, prideful, stupid, or naive. Those are imperfections. And those imperfections limited or erased their free will in certain areas.

If someone has the imperfection of kleptomania, when it comes to stealing, do they really have free will? Of course not.

 

[OneSheep]

Request:
Please feel free to provide a counterexample, and we can discuss it.

Reply:
My counterexample is Divine Revelation as properly defined and duly proclaimed by the Catholic Church. (CCC, 66-67; CCC, 84-85; CCC, 94-95; Chapter 14 of the Gospel of John)

Okay, my assertion was that ignorance and blindness are necessary ingredients of All sin, and I asked for a counterexample. The CCC’s above refer to “private revelation”. Is my making sense of the creation story as a metaphor for God giving us a conscience a “private revelation”? If you are saying this is so, is it sin? And if this is indeed sin, is it a counterexample to my assertion that “blindness and ignorance are necessary ingredients of all sin”? Indeed not, if my speculation is sin (and is it, really?) it would most certainly involve my own blindness and ignorance, which I certainly can not rule out. So, so far you haven’t come up with a counterexample, unless you can attribute what you may see as my sin to another cause. Do you? Notice my willingness to discuss personal stuff, I wish you were as open to such questions.

Perhaps it may be easier to work on another counterexample. I think we can all agree that Judas sinned. Would you like to investigate his case? Was blindness and/or ignorance involved?

As a clarification, this is the sentence which contains “popular speculation”. It is in my post 291 above.
“One of the most interesting things about the fluff surrounding Original Sin, conscience, and forgiveness is the popular speculation that the first human was minus intellect and will.”
It is understandable that many people are not aware of the current Popular Speculation that “the first human was minus intellect and will” and its versions. Here on CAF, one can learn about this speculation(s) in various descriptions in a variety of threads. When one gets to the nitty-gritty of “intellect and will”, one finds the spiritual rational soul.

It is because of Adam’s spiritual rational soul that it is possible to connect Original Sin to modern spirituality.

I never stated that Adam was lacking in intellect or will. Adam was indeed lacking in awareness, and he was certainly blinded by his desire for the fruit. He certainly had free will, as a gift from God, but his will is only as “free” as it is informed, as has been stated many times on this thread. Was Adam omniscient? If not, he had limited free will.

The word “fluff” gives a hint of resentment toward views that appear different than your own. Can you forgive such difference? Is the truth in our hearts, or in the doctrine? It’s rather both, isn’t it?

From the Holy Father under “Build Bridges, not Walls”:

“A Christian,” said Pope Francis, “must proclaim Jesus Christ in such a way that He be accepted: received, not refused – and Paul knows that he has to sow the Gospel message. He knows that the proclamation of Jesus Christ is not easy, but that it does not depend on him. He must do everything possible, but the proclamation of Jesus Christ, the proclamation of the truth, depends on the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells us in today’s Gospel: ‘When He shall come, the Spirit of truth, shall guide you into all the truth.’ Paul does not say to the Athenians: ‘This is the encyclopedia of truth. Study this and you have the truth, the truth.’ No! The truth does not enter into an encyclopedia. The truth is an encounter - it is a meeting with Supreme Truth: Jesus, the great truth. No one owns the truth. The we receive the truth when we meet [it].

Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05/08/pope_francis_at_wednesday_mass:_build_bridges,_not_walls/en1-690203
of the Vatican Radio website

That “truth”, for me, begins with the revelation of Jesus’ unconditional love and forgiveness. Jesus showed us our genuine “Abba”, not the clouded view that our consciences deliver. If this is not part of your “truth”, then so be it. The Catholic Church has very big arms with which to hold the faithful.

 

[OneSheep]

Actually I see people arguing that Adam and Eve were created perfectly, which is not the case.

They were either fearful, prideful, stupid, or naive. Those are imperfections. And those imperfections limited or erased their free will in certain areas.

If someone has the imperfection of kleptomania, when it comes to stealing, do they really have free will? Of course not.

There you go using “stupid” again. Please, forgive “stupidity”. When you do this, the negative tone will leave. We are all ignorant and blind to some degree. It’s understandable.

As far as “kleptomania” goes, I find the idea of inability to control stealing behavior a bit far-fetched. People who steal avoid stealing in front of the police, whether they are “kleptomaniacs” or not, which indicates they have control over the behavior. I would rather put “kleptomania” under the same heading as much sin, “uncontrolled appetite”. As soon as we label someone with “kleptomania”, then all of sudden the person becomes a “case”, a stereotyped phenomenon, which is rather dehumanizing.

People who steal have a malformed conscience, unless other circumstances (i.e. stealing to save someone’s life) are a factor in the decision to steal. Sure, desire blinds us, but our normal consciences counteract such desiring. “Thou shalt not covet”, “you shall respect other people’s right to possession”.

 

[simpleas]

Do you really know people who don’t practise the faith because they don’t believe in satan? That is a shame. There should be room in the Church for those who do not believe in satan. A person can love Jesus and the Church and be an incredible servant to the poor and downtrodden and not believe in satan.

Now as far as believing that there is “good and bad in everyone”, do you believe this? If so, what is the “bad” part? If you have trouble pinning that down, we could discuss a specific sin, and look for the responsible “part” of ourselves.

I know people who were brought up christian/catholic that don’t believe Christ is God, that he was just another prophet, is what i should have said… They believe in a creator, but they don’t believe in such a creature as satan being incontrol of our thoughts/desires.
By the way they are very good people, and i don’t judge them on their choice of belief

I think there is good and bad in all of us including myself. I’m neither fully good or fully bad, i strive to be as good as i can, but as a sinner i separate myself from God, or so i’m told. Baring in mind a sin can be a thought not always an act, but sin affects the soul causing me to turn away from God.

By the way you haven’t responded to my post on the Lords prayer?

 

[simpleas]

One of the most interesting things about the fluff surrounding Original Sin, conscience, and forgiveness is the popular speculation that the first human was minus intellect and will. On the other hand, the substantial teaching of Catholicism assures us that we are descended from a true, fully-complete human person whose nature is an unique unification of both the material world and the spiritual world. Though we live in a material environment, we have the freedom to share in our Creator’s divine life. We are in the image of God in that we are endowed with a spiritual and immortal soul. Perhaps, there is a fear of the responsibility connected to free actions.

Perhaps the subjective reason for downgrading Adam’s, and consequently our own, potential for spiritual growth is a normal preference for an easy life. By removing Original Sin and its consequences, an easy life appears doable–and so we end up wondering why there are difficulties. Avoiding the real Original Sin does not remove difficulties such as the intentions of Satan. Satan, the father of lies, yearns to add humans to the ranks of the disobedient. ( See post 284) Yet, as seen in the story of Adam and Eve, Satan’s power is not infinite. (CCC, 391-395; CCC, 410-411)) While Adam’s yielding to Satan’s temptation lost the Garden of Eden for all of us, we now have the Presence of God in the Eucharist.

Avoiding Adam’s consent to sin can only lead to a misunderstanding of our own weakened human nature. (CCC, 407-409) We need to remember that even with our weakened human nature, we have the power to reject Satan and all his works. This is because God did not abandon us. John 3:16.

Yes this the thing, satan was the evil doer who corrupted the first humans. This is what the church teaches. Have we forgotten this, i mean the world in general doesn’t seem to be aware of sin anymore.
Don’t we as catholic at easter say the prayer (i can’t remember the name of it) were we say we reject satan and all his works?
So we are in a spiritual battle…:knight2:

 

[vames]

Can i ask if you believe the church teaching about satan being at work in the world? We are told he can influence our thoughts therefore giving us the temption to sin.
I know people who don’t practise our faith as they don’t believe in “satan” but believe that there is good and bad in everyone. As a catholic we are taught about satans lies etc, so i just wondered what you think?

When you are remorseful for an unexpectedly grave sin and struggle to understand what was on your mind, you can end up with various conclusions:

1. I was badly educated by my family, deceived by bad friends, oppressed by society. I am a victim!
2. My disgusting egoism and pride took the best of me. I am an evil person!
3. I can’t reconcile it with anything good that I know about me. I am good, but the devil made me do it!
4. I can reconcile it with everything good that I know about me. If I know that all of this is part of being human, who needs the devil?

What I’m sure of is that I am responsible for what I do and what I fail to do, not the devil. I ask God to help me fight my own limitations that lead me to make mistakes, not to increase my fear of the devil as a way to better my behavior.

And I don’t think that considering a proof about the existence of the devil is a right way to stimulate one’s faith in God (as in returning to the Church after reading a scary book about exorcisms or watching “The Rite”). God deserves better than a faith stimulated by our fear of the devil. If we analyze this “faith in devil”, we’ll see that it is based on seeing Satan as a ridiculously powerful being, clearly contradicting the omnipotence of God.

Some ancient Christian thinkers postulated that the Fall of Adam and Eve was a victory of Satan in his war against God; after the Fall, Satan held us all captives and *demanded *a ransom from God, so Lord Jesus was *constrained *to obey Satan and die to pay him the price for our freedom. And the death of Jesus must have been very, very insignificant in this war, because we’re told that the same war continues and every day Satan is advancing - he recruits new soldiers and captures new slaves to use them against God. On the battlefield, we suspect or accuse other people of being soldiers or slaves of Satan (as opposed to Us, soldiers and slaves of God), so we find a motive to hate them. There was a thread on CAF asking about the intellectual origins of Gnosticism. Two posters answered: Satan! And there is a new thread where a poster says that heretics actually deserve to be burned at the stake, right now. Again, when there are good people who think this way, who needs the devil?

 

[BobCatholic]

There you go using “stupid” again. Please, forgive “stupidity”. When you do this, the negative tone will leave. We are all ignorant and blind to some degree. It’s understandable.

I don’t understand your point.

Adam and Eve were living in paradise. God set ONE SIMPLE RULE. And purposely breaking it is NOT STUPID? Assuming they’re not prideful, fearful, or naive.

Help me understand this.

As far as “kleptomania” goes, I find the idea of inability to control stealing behavior a bit far-fetched.

You’re saying there are no such things as an imperfection which does not reduce or eliminate one’s free will?

So you yell at people in wheelchairs who don’t run marathons? How dare they make excuses. So there are no mentally ill people who murder other people, they’re choosing to murder.

 

[grannymh]

In reply to post 298 by OneSheep forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11299342&postcount=298

Unfortunately, many of the questions in post 298 are above my paygrade. So I will respectfully avoid those issues.

Honestly, I prefer basic Catholic doctrines over figuring out new and improved conjectures for Adam, Original Sin, and conscience. The Catholic Church does have very big arms which uphold and maintain Catholic doctrines against all attempts to tweak Divine Revelation.

You are correct that CCC, 67 refers to “private” Revelation. The references to CCC, 66; CCC, 84-85; CCC, 94-95; and Chapter 14 of the Gospel of John all present further understanding of Divine Revelation as taught by the Catholic Church.

Question and comment: “Was Adam omniscient? If not, he had limited free will.”

My reply:
Omniscient is such a fascinating word; however, if Adam were omniscient, that conjecture would violate the Catholic doctrine of “One God.” Therefore, the conclusion is that Adam was not created as an omniscient god. As for limited free will, that could happen in a variety ways. However, a quick glance at the first three chapters of Genesis and a knowledge of Catholic doctrines demonstrate that Adam was capable of a real, free will choice between obedience and disobedience toward his Creator. He had both knowledge and motive to reject Satan’s temptation. (CCC, 356-357; CCC, 374-376; CCC, 396)

Here is an involved question. “Is my making sense of the creation story as a metaphor for God giving us a conscience a “private revelation”?”

My reply:
Honestly, I prefer basic Catholic doctrines. The original doctrines make a lot of sense.

As for the creation story being a metaphor for God giving us a conscience, that is a fascinating conjecture; but, that sounds like gilding the lily along the lines of Manichaeism and Cartesian extreme dualism. My personal preference is not to reinvent the wheel, that is, figuring out a new kind of conscience. Since this is your metaphor, in order to determine if it is a “private” revelation, you need to study CCC, 67. In other words, determining someone else’s experience in relationship to “private” revelation is definitely above my paygrade.

 

[grannymh]

I don’t understand your point.

Adam and Eve were living in paradise. God set ONE SIMPLE RULE. And purposely breaking it is NOT STUPID? Assuming they’re not prideful, fearful, or naive.

Help me understand this.

Maybe the problem is that the word paradise has too many meanings. For example, I think of a paradise as the heaven after I die. I also think of paradise as a place where sin is not possible. These thoughts are not what Scripture and Catholicism teach about the Garden of Eden.

 

[vames]

I have found that we don’t even have to do a lot of investigating about another person’s shoes, but it sure helps. I ask myself “why would I do the awful thing that this person did?” It is an exercise in humility and self-awareness. In fact, we psychologically project our own condemned motives on the the “other”. Condemnation of others simply mirrors, and is a function of, self-condemnation. Is this your experience? It is the way our conscience works.

Speaking of conscience, you mentioned incorporating forgiveness as part of the conscience. Ultimately, it seems to me that forgiveness is actually the path out of reward/punishment manipulative workings of the conscience. Our conscience stays, but we can observe it and accept it, and forgive ourselves when it is being too hard on us.

I’ll try to clarify this - let’s see if I can.

1. Pre-forgiveness, if I can say so. I consider the limited range of your choices and the degree of blindness that influence your behavior and my utter lack of knowledge about your motives to harm me. So how can I judge you? “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”
   I can do that if I am aware of my own deep degrees of blindness. Since I can’t know what was on your mind, I can’t afford to presume that you had perfect knowledge of what you’ve done.
2. Conditional forgiveness as an act of justice. I forgive you if you pay, if you make reparation. You have to sacrifice something, you have to get an idea about how I suffered, so you can refrain from harming me again. “You have heard that it hath been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But…”
   I can do that if I am aware that my own experiences of self-condemnation helped me. I have paid the price of my bad deeds and that taught me lessons. You need such a lesson, too.
3. Conditional forgiveness as an act of mercy. I forgive you if you repent. My “revenge” is to know or at least hope that you’re sorry. Lack of punishment will make you grateful and will prevent you from harming me again. “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.”
   I can do that if I am aware that I can do the same things as you do. So I can’t cast any stone at you.
4. Unconditional forgiveness. You don’t repent and you’re ready to harm me again, but I forgive you because I was forgiven myself out of unconditional love and this is the only thing that can make us both free from the endless cycle of human violence, fear and revenge. “Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you… Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect”.
   I can do that if I am aware how it is to look at myself through the eyes of another person that loves me unconditionally. I see that you don’t know this kind of love yet, so I want you to know it and share it too.

My experience with other people was linked mostly to 1 and 3. I was usually sorry when I did something wrong, so I presumed that others do the same or someday will do the same. I also understood early on that people’s conscience is often clouded when they do bad things, so I was mostly inclined to find excuses for them. But when I felt the need to punish myself for an unexcusable instance of bad behavior (like I said, IMO there are a few such big eye-opening events in life), 2 suddenly awakened in me and I started to condemn others and to hold grudges against them, even if I tried to repress and deny it. In a way it was like I tried to level the field. It wasn’t “Why would I do the awful thing that this person did?”, like you say, but “Why would they do the awful thing that I did? Well, now I understand”. And my conclusion was: sooner or later everyone pays the price and learns the lesson, like me. Which brought me back to my usual “mode” of 1 and 3, only with more experience.

It took this latest big occasion to condemn myself (I told you about it) to go further to 4. After all those chaotic readings I realized that most human representations about the punishments applied by God to people (my only preoccupation at that time) originate in 2, not in 1 or 3, and that they take the human desire for revenge and amplify it to superhuman dimensions. This was strikingly opposed both to Jesus’ teachings and to what I have read and remembered about the capacity of my mother to love me and forgive me even when I didn’t feel sorry and when I repeated the same mistakes. In describing 2 (see above), I quoted only a part of what Jesus said. Now I can add the other part: “You have heard that it hath been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth… But I say unto you that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Jesus did that. My mother did that. I became aware that, first and foremost, my guilt made me refuse to be forgiven by God. I was one of those who crucified Jesus, so I deserved a cruel punishment. So what was Jesus’ perspective, how come He forgave them all and HOW FAR did He want to push His disciples beyond their limits when He taught them so insistently about forgiveness? Then “I got it” and everything fell into place.

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” encompasses everything that should be known about ourselves, from the perspective of God. We don’t know what we are doing, because we’re blinded (1), because we don’t know that sooner or later in this life we will suffer the consequences of our bad deeds (2), because we don’t know that sooner or later we will understand and repent (3) and because we don’t understand yet unconditional forgiveness and love (4).

 

[OneSheep]

I know people who were brought up christian/catholic that don’t believe Christ is God, that he was just another prophet, is what i should have said… They believe in a creator, but they don’t believe in such a creature as satan being incontrol of our thoughts/desires.

This is very common, actually. We have to “step very carefully” when it comes to satan, otherwise we are talking about dualism. Satan has no power; otherwise, there are two forces in the universe, which is Manichaeism, a “heresy”.

On the other hand, our conscience automatically divides our egos into good and evil, so the universe can appear quite dualistic (like star wars). This was the way I saw the powers-that-be. This is also the way that St. Augustine saw the powers-that-be before his conversion to Christianity. At the time of his conversion he said “whatsoever exists in any way is good”. So, I look at dualism, the belief in two powers, as a falsehood, but there is a logical reason for belief in dualism. I think it is all part of the development of our spirituality.

By the way they are very good people, and i don’t judge them on their choice of belief

So, your conscience is not violated by other’s choice of religion or belief. Many people do have their conscience violated, though. We are called to understand and forgive them. As I recall, you are very accepting about other people’s beliefs and shortcomings. That is a gift.

I think there is good and bad in all of us including myself. I’m neither fully good or fully bad, i strive to be as good as i can, but as a sinner i separate myself from God, or so i’m told. Baring in mind a sin can be a thought not always an act, but sin affects the soul causing me to turn away from God.

By the way you haven’t responded to my post on the Lords prayer?

I looked back and found my responses on post 242 and 244. I liked your version better, remember?

I don’t see any “bad” in you. Through self-forgiveness and prayer, you can see this also. I don’t see “bad” in anyone. And I may have said this before, but in looking at my own life, I may have turned away from my conscience, but never from God. It is impossible. Wherever we turn, God is there, in everything that exists. This goes back to the question, is God the same as our conscience?

It is very common to believe that desire to be in control is a “bad” part of ourselves. Also, according to many, “selfishness” is a “bad” part of ourselves, . Do you agree?

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t understand your point.

Adam and Eve were living in paradise. God set ONE SIMPLE RULE. And purposely breaking it is NOT STUPID? Assuming they’re not prideful, fearful, or naive.

Help me understand this.

Okay, I will help. First of all, I am not eliminating “pride”, which I break up into several subcategories, including desire to be in control, desire to dominate, desire for status, desire for self-esteem, and desire for autonomy. Yes, I do believe that Adam was created with all of these “appetites”. I know it sounds absurd, but we humans have love/hate relationships with rules. Until we take ownership of them, we question them, we want to be free of their manipulative requirements. God made us this way, desiring freedom. If we believe that the creation story accurately reflects who God is, then we have to believe that God knew Adam would defy Him. He made us that way, wanting freedom and knowledge. Hmmm were they fearful? I don’t think so. Were they naive? Certainly, they were very much unaware of the ramifications of their choice.

“Stupid” is a word we use for those, including ourselves, when we lack awareness and “should have known better”. The word “stupid” in its ordinary use, is delivered with disdain or resentment on the part of the speaker. We could say Adam and Eve were unaware, and we would be saying the same thing without the condemning tone.

If we are condemning, it is our calling to forgive. So, if you think of Adam and Eve in a negative way, forgive them, they did not know what they were doing.

You’re saying there are no such things as an imperfection which does not reduce or eliminate one’s free will?

I agreed with your previous statements on this. Our free will is limited by our awareness. The less we know, the less options we know, and the less we know about the options. Sure, none of us is omniscient, so none of us is “perfect” in that way.

So you yell at people in wheelchairs who don’t run marathons? How dare they make excuses. So there are no mentally ill people who murder other people, they’re choosing to murder.

What I am saying about kleptomania is that diagnosis is not destiny, and labels are a real problem. I am quite fond of the work of Bill Glasser, who wrote Control Theory. We are in control of every choice we make, no one “makes us steal”, nothing inside “makes me” murder. We all choose, even when we don’t think we are. Gangsters in our area say “I had to kill him” (for some type of disrespect). They are saying that the decision to murder is the other person’s fault.

Mentally ill people choose to murder. They are probably not aware of the value of their victims; their empathy has been mechanically blocked or they are simply not aware of the impact of their behaviors. Many possibilities there.

 

[OneSheep]

In reply to post 298 by OneSheep forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11299342&postcount=298

Unfortunately, many of the questions in post 298 are above my paygrade. So I will respectfully avoid those issues.

So, one of the questions was if you could come up with a counterexample for my assertion that blindness and/or ignorance was a necessary ingredient for all sin. Since you have failed to come up with one, do I WIN? Do I get a prize now?

Seriously, grannymh. Use Jesus’ words as a guide. Prove it to yourself that every time you ever sinned in your life, you were blind or ignorant about the situation. The crowd at the foot of the cross was blinded by their condemnation of Jesus. Judas was blinded by condemnation too, or was blinded by desire, or both. Follow Augustine’s path and get to the very root of why people sin. This is not above your paygrade, forgiveness is what we are all called to do.

Honestly, I prefer basic Catholic doctrines over figuring out new and improved conjectures for Adam, Original Sin, and conscience. The Catholic Church does have very big arms which uphold and maintain Catholic doctrines against all attempts to tweak Divine Revelation.

I think this is exactly the posture that Pope Francis is asking us to avoid. Let’s get out of the protection mode and reach out to people. We have nothing to fear. Let’s include people, not exclude them. There is room for those who have to redefine things in order to iron out the contradictions.

You are correct that CCC, 67 refers to “private” Revelation. The references to CCC, 66; CCC, 84-85; CCC, 94-95; and Chapter 14 of the Gospel of John all present further understanding of Divine Revelation as taught by the Catholic Church.

We have a canon lawyer in the family. I will ask him some day where the line is for “private revelation”. He always has great insights. What CCC 67 does say is:

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment

If anything, my own reinterpretation of the creation story has made Christ’s fulfillment even more pertinent to me, and it may be helpful to others too. As the priest advising me said, “take the Bible literally, unless it appears to contradict itself.” The same applies to the CCC.

My reply:
a quick glance at the first three chapters of Genesis and a knowledge of Catholic doctrines demonstrate that Adam was capable of a real, free will choice between obedience and disobedience toward his Creator. He had both knowledge and motive to reject Satan’s temptation. (CCC, 356-357; CCC, 374-376; CCC, 396)

Okay, can we start there? Please? Let’s say you are correct, for now, and take it to the next question. Why did Adam not reject Satan’s temptation? Please, don’t give me an answer out of a book unless it is your answer. God gave you a mind, please use it. Please, free yourself from the book, and answer from your own mind.

 

[BobCatholic]

Okay, I will help. First of all, I am not eliminating “pride”, which I break up into several subcategories, including desire to be in control, desire to dominate, desire for status, desire for self-esteem, and desire for autonomy. Yes, I do believe that Adam was created with all of these “appetites”.

And that is an imperfection, and thus they were not created perfect.

Hmmm were they fearful? I don’t think so.

I heard of one interpretation of Genesis which made the serpent 50 feet tall and very intimidating. So fear could be in the equation.

Were they naive? Certainly, they were very much unaware of the ramifications of their choice.

I think a better word is “gullible” - they listened to a talking snake who lied to them and believed what it said.

We could say Adam and Eve were unaware, and we would be saying the same thing without the condemning tone.

Unaware is not stupid. There are a lot of things we don’t know and we’re not stupid. No. Stupid is the kid who sticks his tongue on the frozen lamp post. Stupid is the guy who goes up to the Desk Sergeant at the police station, puts down a bag of cocaine and says he wants to file charges against his drug dealer. THAT is what I’m talking about.

If we are condemning, it is our calling to forgive. So, if you think of Adam and Eve in a negative way, forgive them, they did not know what they were doing.

I am very forgiving. I just don’t know if God forgave us temporally or not.

 

[grannymh]

So, one of the questions was if you could come up with a counterexample for my assertion that blindness and/or ignorance was a necessary ingredient for all sin. Since you have failed to come up with one, do I WIN? Do I get a prize now?

Yes.

Seriously, grannymh. Use Jesus’ words as a guide. Prove it to yourself that every time you ever sinned in your life, you were blind or ignorant about the situation. The crowd at the foot of the cross was blinded by their condemnation of Jesus. Judas was blinded by condemnation too, or was blinded by desire, or both. Follow Augustine’s path and get to the very root of why people sin. This is not above your paygrade, forgiveness is what we are all called to do.

Now that you have your prize… it is time to examine the teachings of Catholicism.

If anything, my own reinterpretation of the creation story has made Christ’s fulfillment even more pertinent to me, and it may be helpful to others too. As the priest advising me said, “take the Bible literally, unless it appears to contradict itself.” The same applies to the CCC.

I put the word reinterpretation in bold because that is a great word when dealing with sticky truths.

I am wondering – this is not a question – and there is no prize involved. I am wondering about general contradictions to a common sense understanding of Catholic doctrines.

For your benefit, I am not evaluating any individual, but it is my right to compare any reinterpretation which appears on a public message board with any Catholic teaching.

Why did Adam not reject Satan’s temptation? Please, don’t give me an answer out of a book unless it is your answer. God gave you a mind, please use it. Please, free yourself from the book, and answer from your own mind.

Pardon me. This I do not understand. No prize for me. I do not understand the reasoning for avoiding Catholic doctrines.

I am freely using my mind to learn about God and humans. Freely using my mind means I can learn from Catholic teachings. I am constantly searching the wisdom of Catholicism. Wisdom based on reality.

For example, I will take a question such as "Why did Adam not reject Satan’s temptation? And I find all kinds of possible answers. My mind tells me that some of those answers are straw men and women. It is common sense that if I am interested in Catholicism, I should learn about Catholic teachings regarding Adam’s human nature – and the best way to learn about Catholic teachings is…

I do have to confess that my interest in Adam and Satan may not mimic others’ interests. Still, my mind tells me that it is o.k. to share my interests like you have been doing.

As for the question Why did Adam not reject Satan’s temptation?
Adam has been dead for a long time so I cannot get the answer from him. Therefore, I am more interested in that “something” in human nature which can explain Adam’s freedom to accept Satan’s temptation to commit the Original Sin. Frankly, there is no doubt that Adam rejected the conditions for remaining in God’s friendship.

What is educational for me is that today’s humans have the same *conditions *for remaining in God’s friendship. We have to yield to God’s determination of right and wrong – this means obedience as explained in CCC 396 and CCC 1730 among other paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. I am looking beyond CCC 1730. There are paragraphs about “Freedom and Responsibility” and “Human Freedom in the Economy of Salvation.”

Here is an interesting reference found in the above paragraphs. It refers to the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. Now, that is the best reference to conscience that I have seen so far.

 

[OneSheep]

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” encompasses everything that should be known about ourselves, from the perspective of God. We don’t know what we are doing, because we’re blinded (1), because we don’t know that sooner or later in this life we will suffer the consequences of our bad deeds (2), because we don’t know that sooner or later we will understand and repent (3) and because we don’t understand yet unconditional forgiveness and love (4).

Thank you for the clarification. Your capacity to avoid judging is a bit of a mind-boggler. If we never judge, then forgiveness is never necessary. To me, Jesus spent much more time talking about forgiveness than He did about judging because judging is so automatic and uncontrollable. At my best, I realize that I have already judged, and then I go through the steps to forgive. A neuroscientist wrote a book called My Stroke of Insight, describing her stroke and recovery. She had “lost” the judging part of her brain, and as it started to come back, she did not like the feeling. Now, she is very keenly aware of when that part of her brain is starting to activate.

To me, judgment, the feeling of negativity toward self and others when we experience what we learn as “wrong” is an extremely important part of our development, and continues to guide us all our life. Of course forgiveness is the means to a deeper understanding of God’s love, and forgiveness is the antidote for when we are holding onto a grudge, condemning without letup. Condemnation of self and others has its place, but it clouds our outlook and awareness. When I am condemning someone, I am not living an “eternal” life.

Our society, our world, is not attuned to the message of forgiveness. The way I see it, the way of our world says that there are some people we are never to forgive, like Hitler, bin Laden, even political leaders of opposite ideologies. Jesus calls for something very different.

You were blessed to have found the true sentiments of your mother. Isn’t it amazing that “even if she forget, I will never forget” Isaiah 49?

Yes, there is a great deal to be said about “forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” When I discovered God’s unconditional love through Jesus, I was immediately humbled by how incredibly ignorant I am.

This is one of the reasons I am very fond of the “sheep” metaphor. As a kid, I used to raise sheep. Sheep are incredibly stupid, but I say that in a loving way. When you get a chance sometime, take a sheep by the face and look into its dull-witted eyes. When we do this, we can get an inkling of what it means to be God looking into our own.

 

[OneSheep]

And that is an imperfection, and thus they were not created perfect.

This may be a terminology thing. Baboons have desire for status, control, dominance, and, to some degree, freedom. Are baboons created imperfect too?

I am very forgiving. I just don’t know if God forgave us temporally or not.

God always forgives. This is what the Catholic Church taught me.