Original Sin

[OneSheep]

Pardon me. This I do not understand. No prize for me. I do not understand the reasoning for avoiding Catholic doctrines.

I don’t avoid Catholic doctrine. If something in Catholic doctrine appears to contradict the primacy of God’s unconditional love, then I investigate deeper, and when necessary reinterpret and tamper to make everything fit together.

I do have to confess that my interest in Adam and Satan may not mimic others’ interests. Still, my mind tells me that it is o.k. to share my interests like you have been doing.

I appreciate your sharing.

As for the question Why did Adam not reject Satan’s temptation?
Adam has been dead for a long time so I cannot get the answer from him. Therefore, I am more interested in that “something” in human nature which can explain Adam’s freedom to accept Satan’s temptation to commit the Original Sin. Frankly, there is no doubt that Adam rejected the conditions for remaining in God’s friendship.

Okay let’s assume that God only loves and forgive conditionally. This is not the God I know in my prayer life, but let’s start from there anyway. Why do you think Adam rejected the conditions? This is an Augustinian exercise. And hey, I am not knocking your answering from what you agree with in a book. If it best describes your answer, then please use it. I request, however, that you briefly paraphrase what the book says, if you are using their answer.

If you don’t want to answer that, try this one: A mother tells her son, “If you love me, you will never disobey me. If you disobey me, you will no longer be my friend.” The son chooses to disobey a rule. Why does he do this?

Here is an interesting reference found in the above paragraphs. It refers to the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. Now, that is the best reference to conscience that I have seen so far.

I like that too. However, the CCC does talk about the responsibility we have of informing our conscience, which means that it is not simply a “deposit”. But, as I have said before, since we are all born with the same God-given appetites, our consciences will be formed very similarly, regardless of society and religion.

But there are exceptions. For example, in Islam, one sin is to “run from battle”. I thought this a little bizarre, it certainly isn’t part of my conscience. However, if you talk to people in the military, the notion that such defection is a sin makes perfect sense. When a fellow soldier runs from battle, it triggers a lot of resentment in those who remain.

 

[BobCatholic]

This may be a terminology thing. Baboons have desire for status, control, dominance, and, to some degree, freedom. Are baboons created imperfect too?

Of course they’re imperfect.

God always forgives. This is what the Catholic Church taught me.

True. But did He forgive us temporally? Or only spiritually?

If we were forgiven temporally, why are we not back in the Garden of Eden?

 

[simpleas]

When you are remorseful for an unexpectedly grave sin and struggle to understand what was on your mind, you can end up with various conclusions:

1. I was badly educated by my family, deceived by bad friends, oppressed by society. I am a victim!
2. My disgusting egoism and pride took the best of me. I am an evil person!
3. I can’t reconcile it with anything good that I know about me. I am good, but the devil made me do it!
4. I can reconcile it with everything good that I know about me. If I know that all of this is part of being human, who needs the devil?

What I’m sure of is that I am responsible for what I do and what I fail to do, not the devil. I ask God to help me fight my own limitations that lead me to make mistakes, not to increase my fear of the devil as a way to better my behavior.

And I don’t think that considering a proof about the existence of the devil is a right way to stimulate one’s faith in God (as in returning to the Church after reading a scary book about exorcisms or watching “The Rite”). God deserves better than a faith stimulated by our fear of the devil. If we analyze this “faith in devil”, we’ll see that it is based on seeing Satan as a ridiculously powerful being, clearly contradicting the omnipotence of God.

Some ancient Christian thinkers postulated that the Fall of Adam and Eve was a victory of Satan in his war against God; after the Fall, Satan held us all captives and *demanded *a ransom from God, so Lord Jesus was *constrained *to obey Satan and die to pay him the price for our freedom. And the death of Jesus must have been very, very insignificant in this war, because we’re told that the same war continues and every day Satan is advancing - he recruits new soldiers and captures new slaves to use them against God. On the battlefield, we suspect or accuse other people of being soldiers or slaves of Satan (as opposed to Us, soldiers and slaves of God), so we find a motive to hate them. There was a thread on CAF asking about the intellectual origins of Gnosticism. Two posters answered: Satan! And there is a new thread where a poster says that heretics actually deserve to be burned at the stake, right now. Again, when there are good people who think this way, who needs the devil?

Ok thanks, i think i understand what you say.
I get that we don’t use the devil as an excuse for something that we might do which is considered bad. But we can’t deny that the church teaches that the evil one is at work in the world.

For example :
ccc
407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

Say we don’t believe there is a fallen angel called satan, what then do we believe about the temption story, do we say there was no literal satan and it was only our first parents own conscience which allowed them to chose themselves over God?
Would this then destory the idea that we are sinners in the eyes of God as he loves us in anyway or place we find ourselves, and that theres no actual evil being at work to influence our own minds to choose that is good to that is bad?

 

[vames]

Thank you for the clarification. Your capacity to avoid judging is a bit of a mind-boggler. If we never judge, then forgiveness is never necessary. To me, Jesus spent much more time talking about forgiveness than He did about judging because judging is so automatic and uncontrollable. At my best, I realize that I have already judged, and then I go through the steps to forgive. A neuroscientist wrote a book called My Stroke of Insight, describing her stroke and recovery. She had “lost” the judging part of her brain, and as it started to come back, she did not like the feeling. Now, she is very keenly aware of when that part of her brain is starting to activate.

To me, judgment, the feeling of negativity toward self and others when we experience what we learn as “wrong” is an extremely important part of our development, and continues to guide us all our life. Of course forgiveness is the means to a deeper understanding of God’s love, and forgiveness is the antidote for when we are holding onto a grudge, condemning without letup. Condemnation of self and others has its place, but it clouds our outlook and awareness. When I am condemning someone, I am not living an “eternal” life.

“Pre-forgiveness” as I described it doesn’t skip or avoid judgement, only that judgement can’t lead to a conclusion like “X had another abortion - abortion is a mortal sin - she’s an unrepented criminal - I hate such women - I have to make a tremendous effort to forgive her”. Rather: “X had another abortion - what a tragedy - she must have been fed up with poverty - or scared by her man - or who knows what was in her soul”. I don’t understand “Don’t judge, or you too will be judged” as a command to refrain even from considering the moral context of a human action, but as a command to apply the “golden rule”: I don’t want others to condemn me based on their presumptions. But to avoid judgment entirely would be to see the woman from my example like she were an inanimate thing, an animal or a small child, when judgment simply can’t apply, regardless of how much harm can they actually happen to do to us.

Besides, the 3 first variants, as always in life, don’t function only like mutually exclusive abstractions: 2 can sometimes coexist with 3 (I forgive you if I see you’re sorry and if you pay), 1 can sometimes coexist with 2 (Despite your mitigating circumstances, you still have to pay) and 3 (Your reasons to do that were beyond my understanding, but I need to hear that you’re sorry).

“Even if she forget, I will never forget” from Isaiah is true indeed. There’s a limit both to our capacity to perceive/receive unconditional forgiveness and to our capacity to learn and share it. If we look carefully, we can recognize such teachers of unconditional love here on earth - parents, spouses, siblings, friends - to help us get what Jesus wanted from us. But their and our disposition to love and forgive is naturally imperfect. Which helps us further find the right questions and answers about God. Mine were these ones: “what was Jesus’ perspective, how come He forgave them all and HOW FAR did He want to push His disciples beyond their limits?” But surely there are many ways that must lead to the same understanding.

 

[vames]

Say we don’t believe there is a fallen angel called satan, what then do we believe about the temption story, do we say there was no literal satan and it was only our first parents own conscience which allowed them to chose themselves over God?
Would this then destory the idea that we are sinners in the eyes of God as he loves us in anyway or place we find ourselves, and that theres no actual evil being at work to influence our own minds to choose that is good to that is bad?

I don’t think our relationship with God has any reason to depend on someone else - on Satan or any other nonhuman and nondivine entity. The 10 Commandments of the OT and the 2 Commandments of the NT are issued by God, not by Satan, and if we violate them, we have to answer to God, not to Satan. So the concept of sin not only remains in place, but is consolidated if we take responsibility for our own bad deeds, instead of passing the blame on Satan. And God loves us sinners anyway, regardless if there’s a Satan in the picture or if there are only us.

 

[simpleas]

This is very common, actually. We have to “step very carefully” when it comes to satan, otherwise we are talking about dualism. Satan has no power; otherwise, there are two forces in the universe, which is Manichaeism, a “heresy”.

On the other hand, our conscience automatically divides our egos into good and evil, so the universe can appear quite dualistic (like star wars). This was the way I saw the powers-that-be. This is also the way that St. Augustine saw the powers-that-be before his conversion to Christianity. At the time of his conversion he said “whatsoever exists in any way is good”. So, I look at dualism, the belief in two powers, as a falsehood, but there is a logical reason for belief in dualism. I think it is all part of the development of our spirituality.

So, your conscience is not violated by other’s choice of religion or belief. Many people do have their conscience violated, though. We are called to understand and forgive them. As I recall, you are very accepting about other people’s beliefs and shortcomings. That is a gift.

I looked back and found my responses on post 242 and 244. I liked your version better, remember?

I don’t see any “bad” in you. Through self-forgiveness and prayer, you can see this also. I don’t see “bad” in anyone. And I may have said this before, but in looking at my own life, I may have turned away from my conscience, but never from God. It is impossible. Wherever we turn, God is there, in everything that exists. This goes back to the question, is God the same as our conscience?

It is very common to believe that desire to be in control is a “bad” part of ourselves. Also, according to many, “selfishness” is a “bad” part of ourselves, . Do you agree?

Yes, i understand that the church does not teach dualism. I never saw satan being on the same level as God, but always below him and against God.

It was post 265 i was referring to, but it doesn’t matter

You don’t see bad in anyone, that is a gift. So can you still forgive if you can see bad in a person, is there even a need to forgive them as this is just the person they are?

Like, say you observe someones behaviour and can see that they do or say something that reflects a bad light on them and on others close to them, something like holding a grudge against another just because they can and they seem to enjoy the pain it causes the person they hold the grudge against (they laugh at the thought that the person is suffering now cos it serves them right)

Is this not a badness that is part of that person?
We can see this, but we try not to judge the person who holds the grudge, instead hoping that they will see the error of their way in time .

Yes i remember asking a while back was our soul our conscience

Selfishness isn’t a good thing, while some give without a thought, others would never think to give, or do think and then decide not to give freely.
Selfishness can irrate me sometimes i’ll admit, both by others and myself, but then i have to renege my thoughts back, check myself, and allow people to see things for themselves.

 

[simpleas]

I don’t think our relationship with God has any reason to depend on someone else - on Satan or any other nonhuman and nondivine entity. The 10 Commandments of the OT and the 2 Commandments of the NT are issued by God, not by Satan, and if we violate them, we have to answer to God, not to Satan. So the concept of sin not only remains in place, but is consolidated if we take responsibility for our own bad deeds, instead of passing the blame on Satan. And God loves us sinners anyway, regardless if there’s a Satan in the picture or if there are only us.

Thanks,

Ok, so we aren’t in a spiritual battle between good and evil as the church teaches?
On the one hand we can’t blame satan if we break one of the commandments, and on the other we can’t say there was any influence from him either. ITs our own doing, so we are of good and evil in ourselves then.

I agree we answer only to God not satan, i’m just trying to understand your view that satan doesn’t exist? If thats what you are saying?

 

[grannymh]

I don’t avoid Catholic doctrine. If something in Catholic doctrine appears to contradict the primacy of God’s unconditional love, then I investigate deeper, and when necessary reinterpret and tamper to make everything fit together.

Amazing logic!

 

[vames]

Thanks,

Ok, so we aren’t in a spiritual battle between good and evil as the church teaches?
On the one hand we can’t blame satan if we break one of the commandments, and on the other we can’t say there was any influence from him either. ITs our own doing, so we are of good and evil in ourselves then.

I agree we answer only to God not satan, i’m just trying to understand your view that satan doesn’t exist? If thats what you are saying?

Of course we are in a battle between good and evil. Every day we struggle to inform our conscience, to discern good from evil, to make the best moral choices and to get rid of sin - that’s the beauty and the difficulty of our God given freedom. But if we get used to think that “the devil deceived me and made me do it” and live with the fear that our good intentions can be undermined and hijacked anytime by an unknown evil force, this can lead us to desperation. Or to a superstitious mindset that leads us to suspect not only ourselves or other people of being under demonic influence, but even the water that we drink or a black cat that appears in a cemetery or in a dream.

Perhaps the fear of the devil is useful for many people (as it was to myself) as a tool to make them more vigilant, to increase their awareness that they are prone to make mistakes - if it’s so, more power to them! I only say that we already have plenty of troubles with ourselves, without adding another one. I don’t know if the devil exists or not, beyond his ancient function as a personification of our horror towards evil (it’s because it’s difficult for me to think of a being who is truly separated from God - it’s like in a polytheistic world with deities fighting against each other, above the heads of the mortal men), but if he exists, I’m afraid he’s way, way overrated.

 

[OneSheep]

Amazing logic!

Errr… Thank you… Are you being sarcastic again? You know, we don’t agree on a few things, but I like you, I really do. You are a great presence on the forum, and I think you have earned your stripes, and need to be on the “payscale”.

I continue to respect your opinions and stances, but I do wish to challenge you a bit. I don’t have any idea where this question is going, but I really wish you wouldn’t ignore it. It was a question along the lines of those that St. Augustine pondered, and his pondering was worthwhile. I think you will find the same.

So, here is the question, again:

A mother tells her son, “If you love me, you will never disobey me. If you disobey me, you will no longer be my friend.” The son chooses to disobey a rule. Why does he do this?

Feel free to embellish the question a bit, if you like, make it more specific.

 

[OneSheep]

In my little compendium of the ccc one question is this :
Why do we say “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”?
Answer :
By asking God the father to pardon us, we acknowledge before him that we are sinners. At the same time we proclaim his mercy because in his son and through the sacraments “we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins” (colossians 1:14) Still our petition will be answered only if we for our part have forgiven first.

I addressed this elsewhere on this thread, but I couldn’t find it. The way it was explained to me was that though God always forgives, we will not be aware of such forgiveness until we forgive. A person who only forgives conditionally will only only know God’s forgiveness as conditional. And if God’s forgiveness is conditional, we will always have the anxiety that we don’t measure up, no matter what anyone says. In other words, we can say “God loves me no matter what.” over and over, but if we don’t actually forgive others unconditionally, we will never know that Abba does the same. Do you forgive others conditionally?, if so, try to forgive everyone, repentant or not. It is our calling. Once you have done this, you may have a different outlook.

So my explanation is wrong, if i’m reading the above correctly the ccc tells us God will only forgive us if we have forgiven first. So if we fail to forgive, then God will not forgive us?

As it was explained to me, if we do not forgive we will not know a God who forgives. If we do not know a God who forgives, it will seem that God does not forgive us. But forgive us, He does.

So, to me, what Paul is saying to the Colossians (1:14) is that we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Though our sins were always forgiven, we did not know it. Jesus showed us from the cross. Jesus forgave the unrepentant, unforgiving crowd. Can you imagine a world where forgiveness is the norm, the way people dealt with their enemies? Jesus lived under occupation, in the same land that the Palestinians do today. Caesar and his minions were the prime enemies of the Jews. Can you imagine how unpopular His words were, to “love your enemies”? After 2000 years, people still shrug off the words. Forgiveness is an act of love.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, i understand that the church does not teach dualism. I never saw satan being on the same level as God, but always below him and against God.

If satan has power, then he has unknowable power. If his power is unknowable, then for all our minds know, his power is infinite, because we will never know the extent of such power. So, as much as we can say, “Satan has less power”, it does no good in terms of actually knowing satan has limits. If satan has this unknown amount of power, then this is dualistic thinking. Keep in mind, though, that I still think dualism has its place. Dualism is an outgrowth of our conscience, and we love to see the right raised up and the wrong defeated. Forgiveness of all our enemies frees us from dualism.

You don’t see bad in anyone, that is a gift. So can you still forgive if you can see bad in a person, is there even a need to forgive them as this is just the person they are?

When we use the label “bad” for a person, this is what our conscience is telling us. If you name a “bad” person out of history or the Bible or even in fiction, I can explain. As Fr. Anthony de Mello said, “if you feel any negativity toward anyone, you are living in an illusion.” When we use the word “bad” to describe a person (some exceptions, of course) we are making a statement of our own resentment toward the person.

BTW, I don’t see bad in anyone right now, but I may tomorrow. When I realize that I do have this negative thinking about someone, then I know it is time to forgive. As a priest once told me, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand”. Understanding is a crucial step in forgiveness.

Like, say you observe someones behaviour and can see that they do or say something that reflects a bad light on them and on others close to them, something like holding a grudge against another just because they can and they seem to enjoy the pain it causes the person they hold the grudge against (they laugh at the thought that the person is suffering now cos it serves them right)

Is this not a badness that is part of that person?

What a great question! But let’s take one step back. Why does a person enjoy the pain caused by holding a grudge against someone? Think about this one.

We can see this, but we try not to judge the person who holds the grudge, instead hoping that they will see the error of their way in time .

Well, we can try, but it is really hard to stop judging, the workings of our conscience are so very automatic. The majority of the time, the best I can do is realize that I have already judged, and then forgive.

Selfishness isn’t a good thing, while some give without a thought, others would never think to give, or do think and then decide not to give freely.
Selfishness can irrate me sometimes i’ll admit, both by others and myself, but then i have to renege my thoughts back, check myself, and allow people to see things for themselves.

“Selfish” is one of those catch-all words. There is a lot to investigate on “selfishness”, but we are already working on the grudge case.

 

[grannymh]

So, here is the question, again:

A mother tells her son, “If you love me, you will never disobey me. If you disobey me, you will no longer be my friend.” The son chooses to disobey a rule. Why does he do this?

Feel free to embellish the question a bit, if you like, make it more specific.

Even if I knew the mother and son, most likely I would want to hear what the son says.

Obviously, you are not referring to a God and human situation.

Please be patient while I address a few comments to readers – especially those who have read dozens of human to human analogies used to figure out God’s response to Adam at the dawn of human history.

Obviously, this scenario
A mother tells her son, “If you love me, you will never disobey me. If you disobey me, you will no longer be my friend.” The son chooses to disobey a rule. Why does he do this?
has very little to do with Adam and Original Sin. In no way, can a transcendent Pure Spirit Creator be similar to a human creature with a decomposing anatomy. If anyone is curious about the different status between the Creator and the creature, may I respectfully suggest reading the first three chapters of Genesis. In addition, paragraphs 355-421 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, have lots of information. Or use common sense.

To understand our own spiritual relationship with our Creator, we can look at Adam and the conditions for maintaining his friendship with God. The main condition for humans is that we choose to live in free submission (obedience) to our Creator. (Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 9-11) We are dependent on our Creator and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern our use of freedom. (CCC, 396) The crucial Catholic teaching is that all humankind is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, DeMalo 4, 1; CCC, 404))

Original Sin deprived Adam of his original friendship with God. Because of human propagation, “Original Sin” became a contracted state of deprivation of original holiness and justice. Original Sin also wounded the harmony within Adam and thus his descendants are also wounded due to human propagation. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases Original Sin; however, the consequences of a weakened human nature remain and thus summon us to spiritual battle. (CCC, 405)

There is a lot of talk about God forgiving unconditionally. Here is a quick example of God setting a condition for forgiveness.

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”’ Luke 23:34

“Not knowing what they do” sure sounds like a condition applied to persons at the time of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobCatholic]

A mother tells her son, “If you love me, you will never disobey me. If you disobey me, you will no longer be my friend.” The son chooses to disobey a rule. Why does he do this?

Feel free to embellish the question a bit, if you like, make it more specific.

The son is created imperfect and the mother is unjust. That’s why.

 

[OneSheep]

My Question for you:

A mother tells her son, “If you love me, you will never disobey me. If you disobey me, you will no longer be my friend.” The son chooses to disobey a rule. Why does he do this?

Even if I knew the mother and son, most likely I would want to hear what the son says.

Obviously, you are not referring to a God and human situation.

Please be patient while I address a few comments to readers …

I have asked the question several times already. You know my patience.

I will help you out here. The son says, “I got tired of the rule. The rule was ridiculous. My Mom is too protective.”

So, if this is what the son says, why did he do break the rule? What did he want?

There is a lot of talk about God forgiving unconditionally. Here is a quick example of God setting a condition for forgiveness.

 

[OneSheep]

The son is created imperfect and the mother is unjust. That’s why.

“Unjust” is your conscience talking again. My conscience says the same thing.

What does the son want?

 

[grannymh]

Interesting take. So, are you saying that perhaps some of the people knew what they were doing? If so, Jesus’ observation was incorrect.

Personally, I think that Jesus is capable of observing a variety of people. He is God. And He does not have to report to humans.

Perhaps you are speaking from the position that God condemns people just as our consciences do.

There is another opinion besides claiming that a conscience has the power to condemn people to whatever.

That opinion says that the conscience is a function of the intellect apprehending the essence of some act in terms of its relationship to the true end of man. It is simply the intellectual act or** trained ability to judge between right or wrong**. A properly informed conscience is in accord with the commandments of God. It does not have the power to enslave or condemn people.

 

[OneSheep]

Personally, I think that Jesus is capable of observing a variety of people. He is God. And He does not have to report to humans.

hmmm. So are you saying that when Jesus said, “forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” He was only referring to a certain part of the crowd?

There is another opinion besides claiming that a conscience has the power to condemn people to whatever.

Please, grannymh, listen to what I am saying. I am not saying “to whatever”. Does your conscience ever tell you that you are a bad person? That you are stupid, worthless, lazy, greedy, overbearing, selfish, etc.etc.? These are statements of negativity, which are condemnations. Our normal consciences do this.

That opinion says that the conscience is a function of the intellect apprehending the essence of some act in terms of its relationship to the true end of man. It is simply the intellectual act or** trained ability to judge between right or wrong**. A properly informed conscience is in accord with the commandments of God. It does not have the power to enslave or condemn people.

As I have said before, I do not really have a problem with that opinion. “Training” includes our emotional (name removed by moderator)ut to the conscience. Our conscience includes emotional triggers (reactions) to things we experience. For an explanation of how or conscience somewhat enslaves us (for the most part, the conscience is great!) see this post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11278552&highlight=somewhat+enslaving#post11278552

You didn’t respond to that one, and I don’t expect you will respond to it this time either. It is a little disappointing, grannymh, I give you plenty of counterpoints to your positions, and you very rarely respond.

Please, grannymh, do not categorize me with the “many” who give human examples to try to explain God. I am not the same person as the past examples. You assumed I did not believe in an Adam, you assumed many other things. I am trying to find away to actually discuss this with you personally, not an impersonal book. So, can you please answer the question? It is not a hard question, it is the beginning of an investigation, the same path that St. Augustine took. Are you afraid? Why are you avoiding the question? Do not be afraid.

What did the son want, in the scenario I presented? Why did he disobey?

You won’t find this answer in the CCC. Is that all you can do, present the CCC? Seek in your past, grannymh. Seek in your mind. Seek in your conscience. Seek in your heart. Jesus asks us to seek. Do not turn down this opportunity.

 

[simpleas]

hmmm. So are you saying that when Jesus said, “forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” He was only referring to a certain part of the crowd?

Please, grannymh, listen to what I am saying. I am not saying “to whatever”. Does your conscience ever tell you that you are a bad person? That you are stupid, worthless, lazy, greedy, overbearing, selfish, etc.etc.? These are statements of negativity, which are condemnations. Our normal consciences do this.

As I have said before, I do not really have a problem with that opinion. “Training” includes our emotional (name removed by moderator)ut to the conscience. Our conscience includes emotional triggers (reactions) to things we experience. For an explanation of how or conscience somewhat enslaves us (for the most part, the conscience is great!) see this post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11278552&highlight=somewhat+enslaving#post11278552

You didn’t respond to that one, and I don’t expect you will respond to it this time either. It is a little disappointing, grannymh, I give you plenty of counterpoints to your positions, and you very rarely respond.

Please, grannymh, do not categorize me with the “many” who give human examples to try to explain God. I am not the same person as the past examples. You assumed I did not believe in an Adam, you assumed many other things. I am trying to find away to actually discuss this with you personally, not an impersonal book. So, can you please answer the question? It is not a hard question, it is the beginning of an investigation, the same path that St. Augustine took. Are you afraid? Why are you avoiding the question? Do not be afraid.

What did the son want, in the scenario I presented? Why did he disobey?

You won’t find this answer in the CCC. Is that all you can do, present the CCC? Seek in your past, grannymh. Seek in your mind. Seek in your conscience. Seek in your heart. Jesus asks us to seek. Do not turn down this opportunity.

Can i jump in on this post

I don’t think i am a bad person as such, yes i have faults and failings as the next person has. I can call myself stupid for not doing something correctly etc so we do correct ourselves all the time.
At church we admit to ourselves and others that we are unworthly of God.
Just before communion we say " Lord i am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed"
So of course we are asking for Gods healing of our soul before we receive, but we are also admitting that we are unworthy in Gods eyes.

 

[simpleas]

I addressed this elsewhere on this thread, but I couldn’t find it. The way it was explained to me was that though God always forgives, we will not be aware of such forgiveness until we forgive. A person who only forgives conditionally will only only know God’s forgiveness as conditional. And if God’s forgiveness is conditional, we will always have the anxiety that we don’t measure up, no matter what anyone says. In other words, we can say “God loves me no matter what.” over and over, but if we don’t actually forgive others unconditionally, we will never know that Abba does the same. Do you forgive others conditionally?, if so, try to forgive everyone, repentant or not. It is our calling. Once you have done this, you may have a different outlook.

As it was explained to me, if we do not forgive we will not know a God who forgives. If we do not know a God who forgives, it will seem that God does not forgive us. But forgive us, He does.

So, to me, what Paul is saying to the Colossians (1:14) is that we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Though our sins were always forgiven, we did not know it. Jesus showed us from the cross. Jesus forgave the unrepentant, unforgiving crowd. Can you imagine a world where forgiveness is the norm, the way people dealt with their enemies? Jesus lived under occupation, in the same land that the Palestinians do today. Caesar and his minions were the prime enemies of the Jews. Can you imagine how unpopular His words were, to “love your enemies”? After 2000 years, people still shrug off the words. Forgiveness is an act of love.

Thanks.
I wasn’t asking how/who i should forgive, i was trying to understand why the church teaches that God only forgives us if we have first forgiven. But i think i’ve got it now.

Can imagine a world that forgives each other, but don’t think its likely, well, not in my life time anyway, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to help it along!