Original Sin

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I respect your opinion, as do you respect mine 😉
Yes, I do respect yours and I appreciate your respect. And though I really appreciate your efforts to understand my opinion, I still stand by what I have said earlier, to remember that it is just me making sense of it all. You are going to make a different sense of it all.
Ok so how do you (if you don’t mind me asking) deal with sin. I mean, if like you say our conscience tells us when something is good or bad, what if the conscience doesn’t see sin in something, if the conscience see only good where the church teaches its bad for the soul, do you or would you feel the need to go to confession, even though you don’t believe its a sin?
On the other hand when you do/say something that the conscience reminds you is wrong you have no second thoughts of confession.
I think all have our own thoughts about God, we all know we have our own personnal relationship with God, so its not hard to imagine what we would think differently about God in a way.
I think I am agreeing with you. If the Catholic Church says that something is a sin, and my conscience does not agree, then I don’t feel guilty. I don’t go to confession in that case. On the other hand, my conscience sometimes tells me that I am doing something wrong when the Church does not call it a sin, and I confess it. For example, I get down on myself for not giving more to the poor. What the Church says is “bad for the soul” needs to be seen in the context of the individual.
I am always referring back to the ccc, and working my way through the os as it is explained by our church.
Please keep in mind that your parish priest is a much better source of clarification and explanation of the CCC than I am. I am speaking from the standpoint of the truth I find in my own relationship with God, which to me can sometimes appear to conflict with doctrinal assertions.
 
Yes, I do respect yours and I appreciate your respect. And though I really appreciate your efforts to understand my opinion, I still stand by what I have said earlier, to remember that it is just me making sense of it all. You are going to make a different sense of it all.

I think I am agreeing with you. If the Catholic Church says that something is a sin, and my conscience does not agree, then I don’t feel guilty. I don’t go to confession in that case. On the other hand, my conscience sometimes tells me that I am doing something wrong when the Church does not call it a sin, and I confess it. For example, I get down on myself for not giving more to the poor. What the Church says is “bad for the soul” needs to be seen in the context of the individual.

Please keep in mind that your parish priest is a much better source of clarification and explanation of the CCC than I am. I am speaking from the standpoint of the truth I find in my own relationship with God, which to me can sometimes appear to conflict with doctrinal assertions.
Thanks.
 
Did you really have all this stuff going through your mind? I never had doubts about the “projection” issue. The way I look at it, each of us only has one reference point. If I try as hard as I can to see God, or the world, from someone else’s point of view, then it is still me doing it. Projection is impossible to overcome. The priest who taught me about projection taught me in the context of forgiveness of others, and what we project on God relating to what we do. I may have learned more solid psychology from him more than I learned from my psych classes in college.
The question of projection per se is not the key here; I think everybody agrees that our understanding is limited, so nobody can say “Only I can have the perfect understanding about God”. The problem is that we happen to try and assess various kind of projections, and the projection sustained by the current strongest argument of authority wins the day. A religion with fewer followers often represents a weaker argument of authority than a state religion; a forgiving mother often represents a weaker argument of authority than a judgemental father; what we discover by our own experience often represents a weaker argument of authority than what we have been previously taught by a teacher, a parent or a priest. The projection sustained by the strongest argument of authority counts as the starting point, the standard reference, and can make us doubt or even reject everything that could appear to contradict it.

But then conflicts between various projections occur regardless of what was the starting point of the reflection. From my post: “What if I try to convince myself that God forgives us unconditionally only because I like to project my inclinations on Him and because I want to feel free to sin without the fear of being punished?” - this can be easily reversed: “What if I try to convince myself that God doesn’t forgive us unconditionally, only because I like to project my inclinations on Him and because I want to feel free to condemn and take revenge on others without the fear of being uncharitable?”
I got the “forgiving our shadow” language from Fr. Rohr. To me, it is reconciling with everything that we condemn within ourselves, eventually seeing that all of it is a gift.
And perhaps it also means making sense of everything that we can’t so quickly find the moral reasons to condemn and forgive or praise and cultivate within ourselves. You become aware of something that you didn’t know about yourself and feel compelled to judge it, but the claw of conscience isn’t so uniform and quick to separate and label everything. Folklore sometimes represents the devil as funny and ambiguous rather than a terrifying monster; he’s not superior, but inferior to humans, because he lacks definition, is odd, a pitiful mixed bag.
 
Now, back to original sin. Do you know what I am talking about, when I say St. Augustine’s path? What do you think of the possibility that Augustine’s inability to continue his own path led to his practically incomprehensible statements on “non existence”, and subsequently to theories on original sin?
I think this inability was unavoidable, given that his rejection of Manichaeism didn’t prevent him from replacing it with another kind of dualism. There’s no kingdom of good vs. kingdom of evil fighting for the same world, but instead we have the kingdom of perfection (above, invisible, uncreated, immutable) vs. the kingdom of imperfection (below, visible, created, mutable). And if evil = diminishing of good = imperfection, you get the new opposition Light/Shadow as a replacement of the former opposition Light/Darkness. Three things separate these new kingdoms: the act of creation itself, Adam’s outrageous sin and the punishment applied to Adam and Eve and transmitted by birth to all human race.

“Everything is good” because God is good and we are God’s creation - hence the path, as you say: we should try to identify the good intentions of someone who does a bad thing. But identifying the good intentions doesn’t lead us too far, as Augustine specifies that things of the world are beautiful and pleasant, but compared to the perfect things of God, they are contemptible. Man is allowed to seek worldly pleasures only as long as he doesn’t neglect God, as long as he doesn’t seek the imperfect things of the world instead of seeking the perfect things of God. And the good Adam did exactly this: he used his free will to neglect God, to live below his high calling, to diminish himself and die (if you eat the fruit, you will die). “The cause of evil is the defection of the will of a being who is mutably good from the Good which is immutable”, says Augustine.

Ignorance as an explanation is out of the question, as Adam knew “the things of God” (he was in paradise), “the flesh” was controlled by his will and he was given a clear command and warning. So the choice of Adam to disobey seems so stupid and scandalous to Augustine, that he considers the punishments applied to the human race as too mild, saying that man should have been abandoned by God and condemned forever, like the disobedient angels. But God is also merciful, adds Augustine, so even if He throws “the wicked” into the same eternal hell destined for the fallen angels, He concedes, however, to some people the gift of undeserved grace and spiritual regeneration through the Church.

The most interesting part is the emphasis on Adam and Eve’s “shame”: man was disobedient towards God, so man was symmetrically punished with the disobedience of his flesh. “Now they felt a new motion of their disobedient flesh, as the reciprocal punishment of their disobedience, for the soul being now delighted with perverse liberty and scorning to serve God, could not have the body at the former command: and having willingly forsaken God the superior, it could not have the inferior so serviceable as it desired, nor had the flesh subject as it might have had always, had itself remained God’s subject.”

So not only we can’t become good again on our own, but we cannot benefit from God’s grace if we don’t try to make the disobedient flesh to serve the spirit again, if we don’t deny our bodily life, even up to the point of gladly accepting death. With this, dualistic thinking is fully developed and Augustine is free to see the “flesh” as a practical hindrance to our aspiration towards goodness, although the flesh wasn’t initially corrupted, but became corrupted as a punishment for the original sin committed by the spirit. Adam was “mutably good”, so he had the potential to choose evil, but when he realized this potential, the harmony of human being was broken and replaced by an opposition between spiritual (above) and carnal (below).

If Augustine hadn’t been so keen on condemning his own “sins of the flesh”, perhaps he wouldn’t have insisted so much on “shame” and on the human race being punished with a disobedient flesh. But even if Augustine was a more easygoing guy, I guess the initial dualistic frame (God is spiritual and above, man is embodied and below) would have eventually lead him towards some explanation of the world based on good/evil, spirit/body, guilt/punishment.
 
If Augustine hadn’t been so keen on condemning his own “sins of the flesh”, perhaps he wouldn’t have insisted so much on “shame” and on the human race being punished with a disobedient flesh. But even if Augustine was a more easygoing guy, I guess the initial dualistic frame (God is spiritual and above, man is embodied and below) would have eventually lead him towards some explanation of the world based on good/evil, spirit/body, guilt/punishment.
What I specifically refer to as “Augustine’s path” is the investigation he did in Confessions on “Why men sin”. He sees the good intent of many sins, even murder, but then he confronts his own. When he remembers the time he wasted the pears, and his adherence and teaching of Manichaeism, he does not understand his motives, and he cannot forgive himself. It is a roadblock. Because of this roadblock, he never seems to reconcile within. And when we are unreconciled within, when we have parts of ourselves that we resent, condemn, or see as evil, then the world, the universe, will appear the same. Check this out:

Matthew 6:22-23

New International Version (NIV)

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[a] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,** your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!**

Our eyes are colored, clouded, by not forgiving. Augustine said (when he was not in his self-condemning mode) “It is through the spirit that we see whatever exists is good”. When we do not forgive ourselves (and everyone else), the darkness, the self-resentment, is huge. Augustine really struggled.

I went to a talk on forgiveness once at a conference, and I asked the priest who did the talk, “have you ever observed, or heard of, the connection between forgiveness and dualism?” He said no.

How about you, Vames? Have you seen anything written on the connection between forgiveness and perceived dualism? (The dualism of “power of good” v. “power of evil”, of Star Wars)
 
🤷

With all the talk on forgiveness, I would think that it would be rather important to discuss the “composition” of sin and the “relationship” between sinner and the one sinned against.

In regard to Original Sin, the “composition” of that sin is the drastic shattering of humanity’s relationship with Divinity. The true difficulty, in the case of Original Sin, is that Adam is not supernatural and therefore he cannot undo the damage he directly caused. Hopefully, people will recognize that Adam is not supernatural because he is a creature. This condition necessitates a True Man and True God Redeemer. (CCC, 389)

The “relationship” between God and Adam is not one of two equal beings. Being descendants of Adam, we, also, are creatures and not the Creator and therefore, we are not above conditions for returning to the ultimate friendship of God. Because we are *both *material and spiritual, we cannot hold that God forgives a human creature regardless of the individual’s intentions. This follows from the intention of Adam in committing Original Sin. Adam’s intention was to choose his own desires against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. (CCC, 398) God’s forgiveness does not ignore a human creature’s intention to remain outside the relationship with Himself as Creator.

Obviously, when Original Sin is avoided, it is easy to lose the reality of conditions for a true, intimate (because we are in the image of God) relationship between the human creature and God, the Creator. Original Sin occurred when Adam, the first true human creature, abused his freedom and disobeyed God’s command. (CCC, 396-398) He freely denied the condition of free submission to God. For humans to be forgiven by our Divine Creator, there is the necessary intention (condition) of returning to Adam’s original relationship between Divinity and humanity.

Today, the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation instituted by Jesus Christ is the means of repairing an individual’s broken relationship with God. The Act of Contrition (sorrow and remorse), *both *within the Sacrament of Reconciliation and before the Sacrament is one of the conditions for God’s forgiveness.

Links
origin.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
Adam’s intention was to choose his own desires against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.
Grannymh, why did Adam choose his own desires against the requirements of his creaturely status?

God Bless you, and thanks for your continued (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
Grannymh, why did Adam choose his own desires against the requirements of his creaturely status?
I do not know why Adam chose his own desires against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. CCC, 396-398 refers to Adam letting his trust in his Creator die in his heart. Why he did this is a mystery to me.

In my humble opinion, what is important is the fact that Adam had full knowledge of the consequences of disobeying God’s command. Adam recognized Satan’s appealing lie; yet, he yielded to it and freely chose disobedience.
 
Grannymh, why did Adam choose his own desires against the requirements of his creaturely status?

God Bless you, and thanks for your continued (name removed by moderator)ut.
If I may, I’ll offer perhaps the most salient part of the Catechism’s para 398 on this:

"…he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”."
 
Have you seen anything written on the connection between forgiveness and perceived dualism? (The dualism of “power of good” v. “power of evil”, of Star Wars)
Not directly, but if the starting point is “did really God need Jesus’ violent death to forgive the fallen humanity?”, this logically opens the way towards the connection and it will then appear in some form.

An example - Joseph Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity criticizes the old theory about a vengeful God needing reparation: “Almost all religions centre round the problem of expiation; they arise out of man’s knowledge of his guilt before God and signify the attempt to remove this feeling of guilt, to surmount the guilt through conciliatory actions offered up to God”. He states that “God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God, but as the expression of that foolish love of God’s which gives itself away to the point of humiliation in order thus to save man”.

This, in turn, means that “a Christian is someone who knows that he lives first and foremost as the beneficiary of a bounty; and consequently all righteousness can only consist in being himself a donor, like the beggar who is grateful for what he receives and generously passes part of it on to others. The calculatingly righteous man, who thinks he can keep his own shirtfront white and build himself up inside it, is the unrighteous man. Human righteousness can only be obtained by abandoning one’s own claims and by being generous to man and to God. It is the righteousness of ‘Forgive, as we have been forgiven’ - this request turns out to be the proper formula of human righteousness as understood in the Christian sense: it consists in continuing to forgive, since man himself lives essentially on the forgiveness he has received himself.”

Leaving separations behind: “In reality’s susceptibility to manipulation the boundaries between nature and technology are already beginning to disappear; the two cannot be clearly separated from each other. To be sure, this analogy must be regarded as questionable in more than one respect. Yet such processes hint at a kind of world in which spirit and nature do not simply stand alongside each other, but spirit, in a new “complexification”, draws the apparently merely natural into itself, thereby creating a new world which at the same time necessarily means the end of the old one. Now the “end of the world” in which the Christian believes is certainly something quite different from the total victory of technology. But the welding together of nature and spirit which occurs in it enables us to grasp in a new way how the reality of belief in the return of Christ is to be conceived: as faith in the final unification of reality by spirit or mind. // The world is in motion towards unity in the person. The whole draws its meaning from the individual, not the other way about. Perception of this also justifies once again Christology’s apparent positivism, the conviction - a scandal to men of all periods - that makes one individual the centre of history and of the whole. // The omega of the world is a “you”, a person, an individual. The unification infinitely embracing all is at the same time the final denial of all collectivism, the denial of the fanaticism of the mere idea, even the so-called “idea of Christianity”. Man, person always takes precedence over the mere idea.”

Many years later, Benedict XVI:
“God invites us to join with him, to leave behind the ocean of evil, of hatred, violence, and selfishness and to make ourselves known, to enter into the river of his love. This is precisely the content of the first part of the prayer that follows: “Let Your Church offer herself to You as a living and holy sacrifice”. This request, addressed to God, is made also to ourselves. It is a reference to two passages from the Letter to the Romans. We ourselves, with our whole being, must be adoration and sacrifice, and by transforming our world, give it back to God. The role of the priesthood is to consecrate the world so that it may become a living host, a liturgy: so that the liturgy may not be something alongside the reality of the world, but that the world itself shall become a living host, a liturgy. This is also the great vision of Teilhard de Chardin: in the end we shall achieve a true cosmic liturgy, where the cosmos becomes a living host. And let us pray the Lord to help us become priests in this sense, to aid in the transformation of the world, in adoration of God, beginning with ourselves. That our lives may speak of God, that our lives may be a true liturgy, an announcement of God, a door through which the distant God may become the present God, and a true giving of ourselves to God.”

All of the above is consistent with the Orthodox emphasis on theosis and Incarnation “so that we might become God”. It’s interesting that the Pope Emeritus was criticized exactly by people who use to demand the “restoration of strict Thomism” (in reaction to to Benedict XVI’s emphasis on Christianism as a process of encounter with a living Person), because of his talk about “cosmic liturgy” and leaving separations behind seemed heretic to them.
 
I do not know why Adam chose his own desires against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. CCC, 396-398 refers to Adam letting his trust in his Creator die in his heart. Why he did this is a mystery to me.

In my humble opinion, what is important is the fact that Adam had full knowledge of the consequences of disobeying God’s command. Adam recognized Satan’s appealing lie; yet, he yielded to it and freely chose disobedience.
This might sound alittle “far out there” and my imagination has probably run alittle wild of late, but thinking about Adam having full knowledge of the consequence of disobeying God, had this all happened before. I know we not suppose to believe in reincarnation…i’m not sure what word would describe what i’m thinking?

Can anyone explain the following, as this passage from CCC is what put the idea of “we’ve been here before” into my head!

359 "In reality it is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear."224

St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life. . . The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."225
 
I do not know why Adam chose his own desires against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. CCC, 396-398 refers to Adam letting his trust in his Creator die in his heart. Why he did this is a mystery to me.
It is a key factor in forgiveness that we understand why someone did what he did. Jesus did this from the cross. He understood. It is true that we will not know what was going through Adam’s mind at the time, just as we may never know what was going through anyone’s mind when they sin against us. At best, all we can do is investigate in terms of “why I would do that”, because in order to understand, we have to put ourselves in their shoes. To ask this, however, means that this is an internal investigation. Only you can answer this question for yourself.

We can pick up the lamp of forgiveness referred to in Matthew 6:22-23. When you are referring to “mystery”, you are referring to a darkness, a resented mystery, are you not? And when there is a darkness, the darkness seems great. But actually it doesn’t take much light at all. But what is important here is to pick up the lamp!

Every single person on Earth could have done what Adam did. If we hold it against him, we are called to forgive him, not to leave his actions in a cloud of dark mystery.
In my humble opinion, what is important is the fact that Adam had full knowledge of the consequences of disobeying God’s command. Adam recognized Satan’s appealing lie; yet, he yielded to it and freely chose disobedience.
Please be careful with “full knowledge”. Adam had full knowledge that the fruit was forbidden, any other knowledge is speculation. The adulterer forgiven by Jesus, the prodigal son, the tax collectors all probably knew that what they were doing was wrong also. These “facts” don’t go far in helping us to forgive people. Instead, these facts, if left at the forefront, effectively stifle our ability to forgive.

It would be different if one is seeing “good intent” in the first place. No one on this earth can truthfully claim that anyone, including Adam, does not have good intent if he finds the person’s motives a mystery; this is making an assumption based on ignorance. I see Adam’s good intent. We all need to open our minds to the possibility of Adam’s good intent in our investigation. In not doing so, we cling to darkness.
 
If I may, I’ll offer perhaps the most salient part of the Catechism’s para 398 on this:

"…he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”."
So, here are our options. We could say that “Adam wanted to be like God, etc., therefore, I hold onto my resentment”. The other option is to find the next question.

Here is the next question: “Why did Adam want to be like God?”. This probably brings us back to the “pride” issue again, and you did not respond to my last post to you, post 373. Are you ready to take that up? I’ve been waiting for your response.
 
As general information,

Post 379 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11325931&postcount=379
answers the ever-popular divinity question which serves as the foundation for such questions as** Did God really need Christ crucified in order to forgive fallen humanity?** Why was the Second Person of the Trinity needed if God forgives unconditionally? Surely any prophet could die in any way?

From post 379.
In regard to Original Sin, the “composition” of that sin is the drastic shattering of humanity’s relationship with Divinity. The true difficulty, in the case of Original Sin, is that Adam is not supernatural and therefore he cannot undo the damage he directly caused. Hopefully, people will recognize that Adam is not supernatural because he is a creature. This condition necessitates a True Man and True God Redeemer. (CCC, 389)
With all the talk about God’s forgiveness, it becomes apparent that the action of “undoing the damage” also deserves priority.

Here is a question to think about – What good is forgiveness of fallen humanity if the original relationship between created humanity and the Divine Creator is not restored?
 
So, here are our options. We could say that “Adam wanted to be like God, etc., therefore, I hold onto my resentment”. The other option is to find the next question.

Here is the next question: “Why did Adam want to be like God?”. This probably brings us back to the “pride” issue again, and you did not respond to my last post to you, post 373. Are you ready to take that up? I’ve been waiting for your response.
Yes, I’ve been intending a response for that one. And this one. I think my time’s a bit more constrained than yours tho. 🙂
 
Not directly, but if the starting point is “did really God need Jesus’ violent death to forgive the fallen humanity?”, this logically opens the way towards the connection and it will then appear in some form.

An example - Joseph Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity criticizes the old theory about a vengeful God needing reparation: “Almost all religions centre round the problem of expiation; they arise out of man’s knowledge of his guilt before God and signify the attempt to remove this feeling of guilt, to surmount the guilt through conciliatory actions offered up to God”. He states that “God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God, but as the expression of that foolish love of God’s which gives itself away to the point of humiliation in order thus to save man”.
He said that? Wow! Cool! And that salvation includes the truth itself: that the crucifixion is not an expiation which mankind offers to a wrathful god!

On the other hand, there is still a place for those who believe that God is angry at us. When we feel guilty, this is the God we project. This is the God who resents what Adam did, which many, if not all, Christians believe at some time in their faith journey. This was “truth” as I saw it, and it seems to me that it is a truth that reflects the working of our God-given conscience. God’s anger is the “truth” that our conscience is revealing to us, and until we find a truth deeper than our own consciences (through forgiveness), this remains our truth.
This, in turn, means that “a Christian is someone who knows that he lives first and foremost as the beneficiary of a bounty; and consequently all righteousness can only consist in being himself a donor, like the beggar who is grateful for what he receives and generously passes part of it on to others. The calculatingly righteous man, who thinks he can keep his own shirtfront white and build himself up inside it, is the unrighteous man. Human righteousness can only be obtained by abandoning one’s own claims and by being generous to man and to God. It is the righteousness of ‘Forgive, as we have been forgiven’ - this request turns out to be the proper formula of human righteousness as understood in the Christian sense: it consists in continuing to forgive, since man himself lives essentially on the forgiveness he has received himself.”
I love this emphasis on forgiveness. You are a great resource, vames.
.
Leaving separations behind: … But the welding together of nature and spirit which occurs in it enables us to grasp in a new way how the reality of belief in the return of Christ is to be conceived: as faith in the final unification of reality by spirit or mind. // The world is in motion towards unity in the person. The whole draws its meaning from the individual, not the other way about. Perception of this also justifies once again Christology’s apparent positivism, the conviction - a scandal to men of all periods - that makes one individual the centre of history and of the whole. // The omega of the world is a “you”, a person, an individual.
More wows. The whole draws its meaning from the individual. This is exactly what I am trying to show in my latest posts.
The unification infinitely embracing all is at the same time the final denial of all collectivism, the denial of the fanaticism of the mere idea, even the so-called “idea of Christianity”. Man, person always takes precedence over the mere idea."
Can you explain this, vames? I don’t think I’ve read the prerequisites.
Many years later, Benedict XVI:
"God invites us to join with him, to leave behind the ocean of evil, of hatred, violence, and selfishness and to make ourselves known, to enter into the river of his love. This is precisely the content of the first part of the prayer that follows: “Let Your Church offer herself to You as a living and holy sacrifice”. This request, addressed to God, is made also to ourselves. It is a reference to two passages from the Letter to the Romans. We ourselves, with our whole being, must be adoration and sacrifice, and by transforming our world, give it back to God. …
This transformation happens among many other things, through forgiveness.

And although I love Benedict’s emphasis, I think that it is fruitful to bring it down to a very personal and everyday level.

What I am talking about, in terms of the connection between dualism and forgiveness (lack of forgiveness) is personal, and it would be interesting to investigate this and see if others can relate. I am sure that St. Augustine saw this connection when he said “Through the Spirit, we see that whatever exists is good.”

It is as simple as this: I take up the task to forgive someone that I think is evil. After exercising the prayer, reflection, humility, and understanding that goes into forgiveness, with the help of God, I have forgiven. After I have forgiven the person, the person no longer appears evil. He may have been blind and ignorant, but not evil. My perception of evil as a description of his character was an automatic by-product of my own resentment. When my resentment is gone, so is the by-product. Do you see what I am saying? Feel free to give a counterpoint or share a different experience.
 
Here is a question to think about – What good is forgiveness of fallen humanity if the original relationship between created humanity and the Divine Creator is not restored?
Please refer to the quotes from Pope Benedict in vames’ last post.

“God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God…”

The “restoration” comes in the realization that there was no break in the first place. The “break” is a matter of perception, perception fueled by our feeling of guilt and self-resentment, which brings us back to… Forgiveness.
 
As general information,

Post 379 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11325931&postcount=379
answers the ever-popular divinity question which serves as the foundation for such questions as** Did God really need Christ crucified in order to forgive fallen humanity?** Why was the Second Person of the Trinity needed if God forgives unconditionally? Surely any prophet could die in any way?

From post 379.
In regard to Original Sin, the “composition” of that sin is the drastic shattering of humanity’s relationship with Divinity. The true difficulty, in the case of Original Sin, is that Adam is not supernatural and therefore he cannot undo the damage he directly caused. Hopefully, people will recognize that Adam is not supernatural because he is a creature. This condition necessitates a True Man and True God Redeemer. (CCC, 389)
With all the talk about God’s forgiveness, it becomes apparent that the action of “undoing the damage” also deserves priority.

Here is a question to think about – What good is forgiveness of fallen humanity if the original relationship between created humanity and the Divine Creator is not restored?
CCC 389 is Anselm, I was taught it as a child: God felt infinitely offended by Adam and Eve, so He needed an infinite reparation made by someone with an infinite merit; if you hammer a nail into a wall, you can extract the nail afterwards, but the hole still has to be filled.

Only that nobody explained:
  1. how a finite man with a finite nail was found guilty of having hammered an infinite hole
  2. why did God decide not only to feel infinitely offended, but also to demand an infinite reparation (“undoing the damage”, although God is perfect, self-sufficient and can’t be harmed by a creature)
  3. why this infinite reparation had to take the form of a violent human sacrifice
  4. why not even this violent human sacrifice, with the death of God the Son, was enough to satisfy God the Father, as long as the relationship between God and man obviously isn’t restored to the standards of Eden. People still die, get sick, earn their living “by the sweat of their brow”, there is pain in childbirth and nature suffers - so the divine curse towards Adam and Eve is intact. Besides, Redemption does not equal Salvation in the afterlife, as we know - it’s only opening the possibility of salvation, as anyone who commits even a single mortal sin before death is deemed worthy of eternal hell
  5. why do we have to call 2, 3 and 4 FORGIVENESS of the Original Sin.
 
Please refer to the quotes from Pope Benedict in vames’ last post.

“God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God…”

The “restoration” comes in the realization that there was no break in the first place. The “break” is a matter of perception, perception fueled by our feeling of guilt and self-resentment, which brings us back to… Forgiveness.
Again, I gently refer to the “difficulty” in post 379. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11325931&postcount=379

Also, as one reads the works of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, one stands in awe of the magnitude and depth of his theological studies. It is near folly to take his individual paragraphs as the only explanation offered by Divine Revelation.

For example. Looking at an out-of-theology context comment
“God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God…”
It is so very easy to miss the fact that “His righteousness of grace” refers to Baptism which restores for us personally the original relationship between Adam and God even though the consequences for human nature remain. The work of Baptism is only possible because Christ, Himself, offered expiation for the Original Sin of Adam. When one separates what belongs to the nature of mankind from Catholic theology as a whole, one also misses the true extent of Christ hanging bloody on a cross.

All this overlooks the obvious fact that true justice found in Adam’s original relationship with our Creator can be wrathful from the position of humans. Wrathful can be a description when one is describing the human consequences of Original Sin. In spite of all the semantics, God does not wait…John 3: 16.

In addition, when one does not accept the Catholic doctrines (plural intended) involved with Original Sin – perhaps considering that breaking news event as a matter of perception, perception fueled by our feeling of guilt and self-resentment, which brings us back to… Forgiveness – the whole point of Christ’s Divinity and human’s spirituality are thrown out. Again, please refer back to post 379 for the concept that human beings are not supernatural gods as Satan offered.
 
Can you explain this, vames? I don’t think I’ve read the prerequisites.
In a nutshell, his vision is that the sense of history has Christ as the “omega point”: growing up is growing in our *relationship *with a living *Person *who loved and loves us first (as opposed to *compliance *to a set of *laws *or *adherence *to a set of ideas) and we advance/are attracted towards the love of Christ at every level - as human species (abandoning hatred, wars, injustice), as individuals (loving our neighbor), intellectually (a better understanding about our relationship with God and the others), spiritually (re-sacralizing our life, finding its wholeness), ecclesiastically (a deeper, truer worship).

More Ratzinger, from the same Introduction to Christianity:
Many devotional texts actually force one to think that Christian faith in the cross visualises a God whose unrelenting righteousness demanded a human sacrifice, the sacrifice of his own Son, and one turns away in horror from a righteousness whose sinister wrath makes the message of love incredible.
This picture is as false as it is widespread. In the Bible the cross does not appear as part of a mechanism of injured right; on the contrary, in the Bible the cross is quite the reverse: it is the expression of the radical nature of the love which gives itself completely, in the process in which one is what one does, and does what one is; it is the expression of a life that is completely being for others.
The scriptural theology of the cross represents a real revolution as compared with the notions of expiation and redemption entertained by non-Christian religions, though it certainly cannot be denied that in the later Christian consciousness this revolution was largely neutralised and its whole scope seldom recognised. In other world religions expiation usually means the restoration of the damaged relationship with God by means of expiatory actions on the part of men.
The gesture of the love that gives all - this, and this alone, according to the Epistle to the Hebrews, was the real means by which the world was reconciled; therefore the hour of the cross is the cosmic day of reconciliation, the true and final feast of reconciliation. There is no other kind of worship and no other priest but he who accomplished it: Jesus Christ.
Accordingly, the nature of Christian worship does not consist in the surrender of things, nor in any kind of destruction, an idea that has continually recurred since the 16th century in theories of the sacrifice of the Mass. … Christian worship consists in the absoluteness of love, as it could only be poured out by the one in whom God’s own love had become human love; and it consists in the new form of representation included in this love, namely that he stood for us and we let ourselves be taken over by him.
This love means that we can put aside our own attempts at justification, which at bottom are only excuses and range us against each other - just as Adam’s attempt at justification was an excuse, a pushing of the guilt on to the other, indeed in the last analysis an attempt to accuse God himself: “The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate …” (Gen 3.12). It demands that instead of indulging in the destructive rivalry of self-justification we accept the love of Jesus Christ that “stands in” for us, let ourselves be united in it, and thus become worshippers with him and in him.
 
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