The OS, an act of direct disobedience of God, was different in kind in one aspect from other sins that followed; it was sin at a more fundamental level. It involves the question of morality and conscience we’ve been discussing here because, in effect, it was *a decision regarding *whether or not morality is objective to begin with, since morality can be truly objective only to the extent that a superior authority commands it, only to the extent that the morality’s origin is out of the hands of the being who would be subject to it. In effect it was a decision regarding whether or not God even exists, …
I’m not sure here. Are you implying that a person who does not believe God took offense in Adam’s choice does not believe in God?
It was a sin we still continue to commit, or echo, to the extent we continue to prefer ourselves over God as Adam did, with all that implies.
This is a common analysis, but is this really what people have in mind when they sin?
When you have sinned, have you said to yourself, “I prefer myself over God”? If so, that is a statement of ignorance. We are nothing without God.
As we sin we show that we’re still drawn or attracted by the freedom this first sin afforded us, gauging our desire to be close to God-or not- moderating our own faith, accordingly. But it was a forgivable sin, one that offended God in the sense that it was a strike against the order of nature, and yet one that He knew would occur, one that He deemed worth allowing, one that He would bring an even greater good out of as He steered His creation to a perfection that might not be obtainable in any other way.
I agree with all of this except the “offense” part, and that “it was a strike against the order of nature” More to follow.
An aspect of man’s perfection lies in being unashamed of who he is, his holiness in simply being who he was created to be, no more and no less. Pride is inordinate self-love, ashamed of who we are while wanting to be* more* than who we are-ashamed *because *we want to be more than who we are. That’s why shame is the flip side of pride; shame is inordinate self-hate, perhaps humility taken to the extreme; the two are inextricably linked in any case, both off-centered, neither can prevail in true innocence; both are evidences of OS.
Here, I am going to add something from one of your earlier posts, as a clarification:
as I mentioned earlier, pride is inordinate self-love, itself a good. All evil is a twisted or perverted good since everything in creation is inherently good.
I definitely agree with “everything in creation is inherently good.”
My response was this (post 373):
Let’s investigate “inordinate self-love”. Are you talking about someone thinking “I am better than everyone else”, Or are you talking about the human drive to dominate? Which one, or both, are “evil” to you?
If Adam and Eve could no longer look at each other innocently, though, it was because they were blind to their own innocence. This is the action of the conscience. The conscience says, “you did something bad, so you are bad”, or “you thought something bad, so you are bad.” So their eyes were certainly not opened. By the action of their consciences, they were now blinded.
In addition, let’s look at the other aspect of “looking upon each other innocently.” In this case, it is not just the conscience that gives us a bit of blindness. Desire blinds us. When we are caught up in desire, our empathy can be blocked. Humans have the capacity to see each other as sexual objects, to not consider the wishes of others in terms of wanting to be seen this way, or treated this way.
Please excuse my lack of understanding here. On the one hand, you are indicating that shame is an untruth, if I am reading this right. I would qualify this, saying that shame leads to a blindness about the value of the object of the shame. On the other hand you are indicating that man has “lost his innocence”, which is the conscience talking again, saying “shame on man”. Unconditional love and forgiveness is the path by which we can see human innocence. Man has not lost his innocence.
Here, to me, is a key part of forgiveness. I find the good intent. I find the good intent of people in their sin. It’s difficult, because it seems like “making excuses” for them. I make it a matter of discovery rather than a trial.
Let us say, for now, that Adam’s choice or behavior was inordinate. What was his good intent?
Man is not God. And there’s no shame in not being God and yet man, Adam, was ashamed of not being God, I believe, of being a creature instead, and that’s where our human shame to this day issues from and that’s where pride as well comes from.
Now here’s more of a stretch, just for consideration: Pride is the act of overcoming the shame of not being God- or attempting to overcome it…
I don’t think it’s a stretch, and I think we should all consider what you are saying. But before we can consider it, we need to know what aspect of “pride” you are talking about, and try to discern what “inordinate pride” is.
