Original sin

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kellie
  • Adam and Eve chose the lesser of 2 goods. But they wouldn’t have known that was a sin would they, as they created that sin, hence original sin.*
Adam and Eve knew God, and they knew he was the creator of all things. The serpent was merely a creature that God created, and Adam and Eve were aware of that fact. Why should Adam and Eve have listened to a mere created being instead of listening to God, the creator of all beings? And why listen to a serpent who exists on a level lower than human beings?

Adam and Eve had the ability to think rationally in the state of original justice, and if they had acted rationally, they would never have listen to a creature instead of listening to God. If nothing else, they deserved to be punished for acting stupidly. Just as a kid deserves to be grounded for failing a test that he could have easily passed.
 
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Matt16_18:
It was possible because Adam and Eve are human beings with free wills.
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I never denied that they had free will. Please read the rest of my post to see the problem.
 
captainkidd

I read your last post, and I have addressed all the issues that you raised in previous posts.

The question that you are asking is a good one. But the assumptions that you are making are false.

Let me summarize the problem, as I see it.

The Christian position is that God did not create Lucifer, Adam or Eve with the corruption of concupiscence. God created them pure and holy with the gift of free will, a gift that gave them the ability to love God perfectly or to not love God perfectly. The gift of free will also gave them the ability to be agents of free cause. Lucifer, Adam and Eve all made the choice for self-love above loving God with their whole hearts, minds, and souls. Lucifer, Adam and Eve all made a choice for inordinate self-love, and inordinate self-love is nothing more than the sin of pride. Because Lucifer, Adam and Eve are agents of free cause, their sin of pride caused death, decay and disease to enter the world.

The other position is the one that you are expounding. God did not create Adam and Eve free from corruption. Adam and Eve were created defective, and they are not agents of free cause. God is the only agent of free cause, and ultimately, God is the source of all evil and corruption in the world.

You are hardly alone in holding the latter position. Millions of Calvinists, and unknown millions of pagan pantheists hold to this position (or some variation of it). Calvinism is built on the fallacy that God is the source of evil, since they believe that even the damned are doing what God predestined them to do. But if God is the ultimate cause of evil being in the world, then aren’t they guilty of worshipping the source of evil? The pantheists don’t deny worshipping God as the source of all things, including evil. For pantheists, evil and good are all one, hence they make no excuses for worshipping God under the form of Kali, the goddess of destruction, or Shiva, the god of destruction. .
 
Jesus was God and Man, He had a human nature and a divine nature, hypostatic union, was not Mary the channel of his human nature? Did His human nature exist before Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb?..No. So, the human nature of Jesus had a beginning.

Also: John chapter 1 verse 14, syas that Jesus was full of grace and truth.
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Thomas2:
Hello Captain Kidd!

Just a little clarification needed: You quoted me as saying “The only other person who was created in this unique state of grace was Mary.”
to which you replied - (And Jesus, of course).

This cannot be because Jesus was never created - He is God and God is the only uncreated Being there is. He was and is and will come again. Jesus has no state of grace - He is omnipotent. He is the uncreated Creator.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
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Think of it as a ford assembly line…a fakw in the design is introduced by someone in to the production process (the devil) this frlaw is passed to all subsequent vehicles in that assembly line…the cars are nat at fault…this can only be fixed until the designer comes and fixes the flaw…(Jesus) now the vehicles are perfect…(US)
 
Richard Lamb
  • Think of it as a ford assembly line…a fakw in the design is introduced by someone in to the production process (the devil) this frlaw is passed to all subsequent vehicles …*
Where did the devil get his flaw? Is God responsible for creating Lucifer with a defect that was inevitably going to cause Lucifer to act in prideful rebellion? If that is the case, then you are affirming the Calvinist/Hindu understanding of God. You would be affirming that, ultimately, God is the root source of all evil.
 
Matt16_18 said:
Richard Lamb

Think of it as a ford assembly line…a fakw in the design is introduced by someone in to the production process (the devil) this frlaw is passed to all subsequent vehicles …

Where did the devil get his flaw? Is God responsible for creating Lucifer with a defect that was inevitably going to cause Lucifer to act in prideful rebellion? If that is the case, then you are affirming the Calvinist/Hindu understanding of God. You would be affirming that, ultimately, God is the root source of all evil.
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We did not inherit original sin from the devil but from adam, the devil introduced the Flaw(sabotage) the devi being an angel was also endowed with free will, he excersised hi free will and reveled against God…God is not resposible for evil but he allowed it for his glory.
 
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Matt16_18:
God created them pure and holy with the gift of free will, a gift that gave them the ability to love God perfectly or to not love God perfectly.
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Nowhere in any of my posts have I denied that Adam and Eve had free will.
Lucifer, Adam and Eve all made a choice for inordinate self-love, and inordinate self-love is nothing more than the sin of pride.
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I agree, but my question is: How was it possible for them to do this, given that their intellects did not perceive it as good?
The other position is the one that you are expounding. God did not create Adam and Eve free from corruption.
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I never said that. I’m simply asking a question, not advancing any particular position.
Think of it as a ford assembly line…a fakw in the design is introduced by someone in to the production process (the devil)
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So is that the answer? Is Satan responsible for the corruption of human nature?
 
Captainkidd
  • Matt: “Lucifer, Adam and Eve all made a choice for inordinate self-love, and inordinate self-love is nothing more than the sin of pride.”
Captainkidd: “I agree, but my question is: How was it possible for them to do this, given that their intellects did not perceive it as good?”*

Lucifer, Adam and Eve did perceive self-love as good, because self-love is good. They also knew that the love of God is good, and that it is a higher good than self-love. Their free wills gave them the ability to choose to elevate the lesser good above the greater good. There is no necessity that their intellects must have been created defective by God in order to do this.
  • Is Satan responsible for the corruption of human nature?*
No. (You were quoting Richard Lamb, not me). God allowed Adam and Eve to be tested by the serpent, and he was not committing an evil by doing this. Adam and Eve are wholly responsible for their own bad choices. Eve tries to weasel out of being responsible for her choice for direct disobedience to the expressed will of God by blaming the serpent:

The woman said, “The serpent beguiled me, and I ate.”
Gen. 3:13

God doesn’t buy Eve’s lame excuse making. If the Satan was responsible for the fall of Adam and Eve, then God is being unjust in punishing Adam and Eve for their disobedience. God is not unjust in his judgement. He spells out the punishment that Adam, Eve and the serpent will receive for their mutual actions that led to disobedience to the revealed will of God.
 
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Matt16_18:
Their free wills gave them the ability to choose to elevate the lesser good above the greater good.
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I think it’s clear from my earlier posts that the fact that Adam and Eve had free will is not sufficient to explain how they were able to sin. Let’s take it step by step: Do you agree with my first premise, that the will never chooses an action unless the intellect perceives it as good?
 
captainkidd
  • I think it’s clear from my earlier posts that the fact that Adam and Eve had free will is not sufficient to explain how they were able to sin.*
No, that is an assertion that you have made, not a fact.

Let’s take it step by step: Do you agree with my first premise, that the will never chooses an action unless the intellect perceives it as good?

No, I don’t agree with that premise. If it were true, then all choices for sin could only be made because of ignorance of moral truths. Doing what is good is doing what is moral. Doing what is pleasurable may or may not be moral.

Let us look again at the example of the alcoholic. The alcoholic can know with perfect knowledge that getting drunk is an evil that is destroying his life, and yet, in spite of his intellect knowing that this is true, he can exercise his free will to get drunk anyway. Alcoholics don’t get drunk because they perceive drunkenness as a moral good.

Another example. A person sees that they have the opportunity to steal a lot of money with no chance of getting caught. Their intellect tells them that this would not be good, but they can still exercise their free will to steal the money.
 
For all those interested - you can get all the answers you need by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 385 to 421. 👍

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
No, I don’t agree with that premise.

So you disagree with what St. Thomas says in ST I-II, a. 8, q. 1?

For all those interested - you can get all the answers you need by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 385 to 421.

I did that already, and I still have questions.
 
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captainkidd:
Do you agree with my first premise, that the will never chooses an action unless the intellect perceives it as good?
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Can you define what you mean by “good?” I don’t mean to sound Clinton-esque, but I think THIS is the problem.

When we sin, we know that the choice we are making is NOT good. For instance, when I ask my son if he ate a cookie without asking me first, and he answers me, with his mouth full of cookie, “No, mom.” He KNOWS that lying is not good, but he thinks that the lie might save him from punishment. So, he’s choosing self over the truth. He knows this is not good, which is exactly why it’s a sin. If he didn’t know that lying was wrong, then he couldn’t be sinning.

So, I guess I’d have to say that I don’t agree that the will never chooses as action that it doesn’t perceive as good…I like the “beneficial to self” explanation earlier in the thread.
 
CaptainKidd
  • So you disagree with what St. Thomas says in ST I-II, a. 8, q. 1?*
Please provide a hyperlink to the appropriate section of the Summa so that I can see what you have quoted in its context.

Did Thomas Aquinas believe that ignorance was the ultimate source of evil? I don’t think so. The idea that evil choices are made only because of ignorance is found in the writings of Plato. Aquinas would have been aware of Plato’s thinking along these lines, and he would have known that Plato’s position is not compatible with Christianity. Plato’s error leads to seeking salvation through gnosis.

God is all holy. God is not the source or cause of evil.
 
Please provide a hyperlink to the appropriate section of the Summa so that I can see what you have quoted in its context.

newadvent.org/summa/200801.htm

When we sin, we know that the choice we are making is NOT good.

I should clarify: The will never chooses an action unless the intellect perceives it as good in some way. Even though your son chooses an action he knows to be evil, he does it anyway because he sees it as a good action in some way. In other words, he rationalizes it to himself.
 
CaptainKidd
  • I should clarify: The will never chooses an action unless the intellect perceives it as good in some way.*
Adam and Eve perceived self-love as something good. Their sin was the free will choice to choose a lesser good (self-love) over the greatest good (love of God).
 
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Matt16_18:
Adam and Eve perceived self-love as something good. Their sin was the free will choice to choose a lesser good (self-love) over the greatest good (love of God).
Click to expand...
We agreed on that already, but it still does not solve the problem.
 
CaptainKidd

The problem, as you defined it, was that Adam and Eve could not have chosen self-love above the love of God, because they would not have been able to perceive self-love as something good. But now you agree that they could see that self-love was something that was good.

So what is the problem that is not solved?
 
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