Origins of slavery in the US

[exnihilo]

The root cause and primary reason the Civil War was fought was SLAVERY. I refer you to the many Secessionist Documents or Orders presented by the southern slave states.

I think slavery was a reason the war was fought. I do think the Confederate states fought in part to preserve slavery. But it is not the case that the Union fought to end slavery. Lincoln was very clear that he did not want to end slavery. And in fact he never did. Slavery was ended after the war when the 13th Amendment was passed with the votes of former Confederate states.

The Union fought to preserve the Union. It should also be noted that Lincoln did not think highly of Blacks. He may have not liked slavery, and many did not including some from the Confederate states. But he was an arch racist by today’s standards.

It is true many in the Confederate states feared the Union would outlaw slavery and they did not want this. That is not really shocking since an end to slavery would be a huge disruption to the economic system. We hear the same thing today when people talk about stopping illegal immigration and deporting those here illegally. The situation in the Deep South was far more challenging as in many places slaves outnumbered the free. Slavery had the added problem of who would compensate the owners? In some countries the government paid masters for their lost property. The US at that point was very divided into two different cultures and that made a fair ending of slavery difficult.

 

[BrassAnkles]

You seem to be making the case regarding slavery that Catholicism is better than Protestantism. How do you work in the facts that the biggest slave traders where Catholics, the places with the highest slave mortalities were Catholic, and the last countries in the West to end slavery were Catholic?

Regarding churches today, there is plenty of segregation. But there have been plenty of ethnic Catholic Churches in the US. Man tends to stick with those that he views as like him. That is not a Protestant or Catholic thing.

With all due respect there are plenty of Catholics that don’t follow Church teaching. However, the Rome was clear regarding slavery long before the Atlantic Slave Trade, notwithstanding rogue priests.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/julyweb-only/7-14-53.0.html

Regarding “ethnic Catholic Churches” where did I say there were none in the US???

I stated that in Latina American Catholic Churches intermarriage of whites and blacks was not prohibited like in the Protestant Churches in the US.

Racism runs deep in the US, even in the laity in the Catholic Church. Still, it was never as bad as it was in the Protestant Churches that made racism part of their doctrine.

 

[BrassAnkles]

I think slavery was a reason the war was fought. I do think the Confederate states fought in part to preserve slavery. But it is not the case that the Union fought to end slavery. Lincoln was very clear that he did not want to end slavery. And in fact he never did. Slavery was ended after the war when the 13th Amendment was passed with the votes of former Confederate states.

The Emancipation Proclamation was the beginning of the end of slavery. Lincoln had long opposed slavery, notwithstanding being a pragmatical politician. Here are some of his quotes:

“I think slavery is wrong, morally, and politically. I desire that it should be no further spread in these United States, and I should not object if it should gradually terminate in the whole Union.” The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, “Speech at Cincinnati, Ohio” (September 17, 1859), p. 440.

“I do not wish to be misunderstood upon this subject of slavery in this country. I suppose it may long exist, and perhaps the best way for it to come to an end peaceably is for it to exist for a length of time. But I say that the spread and strengthening and perpetuation of it is an entirely different proposition. There we should in every way resist it as a wrong, treating it as a wrong, with the fixed idea that it must and will come to an end.” The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, “Speech at Chicago, Illinois” (March 1, 1859), p. 370.

“We think slavery a great moral wrong, and while we do not claim the right to touch it where it exists, we wish to treat it as a wrong in the territories, where our votes will reach it.” The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, “Speech at New Haven, Connecticut” (March 6, 1860), p. 16.

“I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel.” The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, “Letter to Albert G. Hodges” (April 4, 1864), p. 281.

 

[exnihilo]

With all due respect there are plenty of Catholics that don’t follow Church teaching. However, the Rome was clear regarding slavery long before the Atlantic Slave Trade, notwithstanding rogue priests…

I stated that in Latina American Catholic Churches intermarriage of whites and blacks was not prohibited like in the Protestant Churches in the US.

Racism runs deep in the US, even in the laity in the Catholic Church. Still, it was never as bad as it was in the Protestant Churches that made racism part of their doctrine.

So Protestants had the better practice but Catholics the better doctrine? It seems to me that throughout history man has viewed other groups of men as being different and inferior. This is not unique to Protestantism or Europeans. I don’t see the point in insisting this is unique to a geographically group or faith when we can find all people’s engaging in it. Anyway, what is the measure of who is worse?

The Emancipation Proclamation was the beginning of the end of slavery. Lincoln had long opposed slavery, notwithstanding being a pragmatical politician. Here are some of his quotes…

Yes, Lincoln did oppose slavery. He opposed it in part because of a dislike of the institution. He opposed it in part because he had a very low opinion of Blacks and slavery was a cause for Blacks moving into western territory. But he did not fight to war to free slaves. We have his own words in a letter to Horace Greely in the midst of the war:

The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be “the Union as it was.” If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.

If we take Lincoln at his word he fought the war to preserve the Union, not to free slaves. The EP was a war tactic long used by adversaries. Again, the short document makes clear it frees no slaves wherever the Union had control. That is like me issuing an order that anyone who performs any abortion is guilty of a felony. I have no authority and so it is rather meaningless.

 

[BrassAnkles]

If we take Lincoln at his word he fought the war to preserve the Union, not to free slaves. The EP was a war tactic long used by adversaries. Again, the short document makes clear it frees no slaves wherever the Union had control. That is like me issuing an order that anyone who performs any abortion is guilty of a felony. I have no authority and so it is rather meaningless.

The Civil War was fought because of the issue of slavery. If there was no slavery there would have been no Civil War.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

The Civil War was fought because of the issue of slavery. If there was no slavery there would have been no Civil War.

Oh boy. My African American husband, who graduated college with degrees in history and political science, even says that it wasn’t all about slavery.

Here’s what I know:

You can Google “Civil War and ____” to learn more.

unfair taxation
nullification/state’s rights. Simply put, Southerners felt that the federal government was passing laws that treated them unfairly. Southern states felt that they had the right to overturn any law the federal government passed. It ties back in with the whole unfair taxation thing. Also, a lot of people, to this day, still feel that states rights are more important than what the federal government thinks.
Economic and Social differences.

Seriously, only like 1/4 of Southerners owned slaves. It wasn’t like every person had slaves doing their work or helping with the work.

It seems like Yankees learn that the South only wanted their slaves and that is why there was a war. There were slave states that never succeeded. Some of those states ended slavery before the war was over. Kentucky and Delaware kept their slaves until the 13th amendment was ratified.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The Civil War was fought because of the issue of slavery. If there was no slavery there would have been no Civil War.

Wrong.

 

[BrassAnkles]

If there were no slavery the Civil War would not have been fought. It was the cause that separated the Union.

I understand topic has apparently become delicate for some. In fact my father was a proponent of now popular theory that slavery was not the cause of the Civil War. Conspicuously, this theory has come out of the South, where I am from, so I am well rehearsed with this revisionism.

I believe we should defer to recorded history in this matter. If Linclon’s comments regarding slavery and the Civil War are considered too ambiguous for some, Frederick Douglass comments leave no doubt:

“Civil war was not a mere strife for territory and dominion, but a contest of civilization against barbarism”.
– Frederick Douglass, Life and Times of Frederick Douglass.

“A war undertaken and brazenly carried for the perpetual enslavement of the colored men, calls logically and loudly for the colored men to help suppress it.”
– Frederick Douglass, Frederick Douglass’ Paper, Rochester, March2, 1863.

 

[tabycat]

Would somebody please explain 'no slavery, no Civil War) when there were slave states, during the Civil War, in the Union?

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Would somebody please explain 'no slavery, no Civil War) when there were slave states, during the Civil War, in the Union?

Doesn’t make sense to me, either.

 

[teeboy]

Origins…

The South has a warmer climate and a longer growing season and the soils and topography are better suited for farming; hence the prevalance of slavery in the South. Today, the population in the South is much greater than it was back then, so there was more property to go around per landowner. I believe the Federal Government conspired to change this system of landownership and agrarianism and shift power. The Southern landowners had much influence and wealth back then; the end result was abolition, which we understand to be in line with social justice, but I believe it was premised on other motives.

 

[on_the_hill]

The root cause and primary reason the Civil War was fought was SLAVERY. I refer you to the many Secessionist Documents or Orders presented by the southern slave states.

Zoltan, I think this is the only time I’ve agreed with you in a thread.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Oh boy. My African American husband, who graduated college with degrees in history and political science, even says that it wasn’t all about slavery.

Here’s what I know:

You can Google “Civil War and ____” to learn more.

unfair taxation
nullification/state’s rights. Simply put, Southerners felt that the federal government was passing laws that treated them unfairly. Southern states felt that they had the right to overturn any law the federal government passed. It ties back in with the whole unfair taxation thing. Also, a lot of people, to this day, still feel that states rights are more important than what the federal government thinks.
Economic and Social differences.

Seriously, only like 1/4 of Southerners owned slaves. It wasn’t like every person had slaves doing their work or helping with the work.

It seems like Yankees learn that the South only wanted their slaves and that is why there was a war. There were slave states that never succeeded. Some of those states ended slavery before the war was over. Kentucky and Delaware kept their slaves until the 13th amendment was ratified.

Cause for cecession.

Georgia

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change, hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and demonstrated the necessity of separation.

Mississippi

A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

South Carolina

Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.

Virginia

THE SECESSION ORDINANCE.
AN ORDINANCE TO REPEAL THE RATIFICATION OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BY THE STATE OF VIRGINIA, AND TO RESUME ALL THE RIGHTS AND POWERS GRANTED UNDER SAID CONSTITUTION.

The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.

civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

 

[BrassAnkles]

Cause for cecession.

Georgia

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change, hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and demonstrated the necessity of separation.

Mississippi

A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

South Carolina

Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.

Virginia

THE SECESSION ORDINANCE.
AN ORDINANCE TO REPEAL THE RATIFICATION OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BY THE STATE OF VIRGINIA, AND TO RESUME ALL THE RIGHTS AND POWERS GRANTED UNDER SAID CONSTITUTION.

The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.

civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

Thank you very much.

BTW, I realize this topic is touchy for some. In the case of my father who denied the obvious reasons for the Civil War I believe it stemmed from guilt he felt from what his ancestors did. I believe this is racist in origin in that one cannot feel guilty about the sins of ones ancestors unless one believes their ancestors are better than other “races”. In other words if one feels proud for being of a certain heritage to the detriment of others it is only natural to feel guilty of the sins of people of their heritage. This is very common and this type of denial is seen all over the world, look at Germany and Armenia.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Would somebody please explain 'no slavery, no Civil War) when there were slave states, during the Civil War, in the Union?

It was the Southern radicals who walked out. The moderates thought this would all blow over. They also valued the Union and there were definitely some adroit maneuvers by Lincoln involving the Maryland legislature.

 

[exnihilo]

Cause for cecession…

And what of the other Confederate states? They didn’t issue any such declarations so what were their motivation?

I think what you are missing is that the problem was not just concerns over slavery. There were plenty of other issues. It is most certainly true that the Confederate states were concerned about the issue of slavery. Their labor system relied heavily on slavery and they had invested a huge amount of money in this. Keep in mind it was the Union states who were involved more directly in the Slave Trade and profited from it. This added to the tension as it seemed the North was happy to profit from the trade, and then turn around and condemn the institution. If slavery were simply abolished slave owners would suffer a huge financial loss. Was the North willing to pay compensation? Given the regional tensions maybe not.

Besides that issue you had cultural differences. The South was more agricultural. Also the South paid most of the federal taxes.

But even if we suppose that the only reason the Confederate states seceded was to preserve slavery that still does not make the war about slavery because they are two separate issues. The states seceded prior to the war. But Lincoln refused to let them go their own way. According to Lincoln’s own words he was not fighting to end slavery but to preserve the Union.

I think the historical record is obvious enough that the slave states intended to keep slavery. Slavery might have continued for a number of years as it did in Brazil, Cuba and other countries. But what is a historical fantasy is that the North fought to end slavery. That is simply not supported by the evidence.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

And what of the other Confederate states? They didn’t issue any such declarations so what were their motivation?

I think what you are missing is that the problem was not just concerns over slavery. There were plenty of other issues. It is most certainly true that the Confederate states were concerned about the issue of slavery. Their labor system relied heavily on slavery and they had invested a huge amount of money in this. Keep in mind it was the Union states who were involved more directly in the Slave Trade and profited from it. This added to the tension as it seemed the North was happy to profit from the trade, and then turn around and condemn the institution. If slavery were simply abolished slave owners would suffer a huge financial loss. Was the North willing to pay compensation? Given the regional tensions maybe not.

Besides that issue you had cultural differences. The South was more agricultural. Also the South paid most of the federal taxes.

But even if we suppose that the only reason the Confederate states seceded was to preserve slavery that still does not make the war about slavery because they are two separate issues. The states seceded prior to the war. But Lincoln refused to let them go their own way. According to Lincoln’s own words he was not fighting to end slavery but to preserve the Union.

I think the historical record is obvious enough that the slave states intended to keep slavery. Slavery might have continued for a number of years as it did in Brazil, Cuba and other countries. But what is a historical fantasy is that the North fought to end slavery. That is simply not supported by the evidence.

yes you are right. Lincoln wanted the Union at any cost. Only in late 1862 did the freedom for slaves become a war aim.

civilwar.org/education/history/emancipation-150/10-facts.html

 

[andrewstx]

Thank you very much.

BTW, I realize this topic is touchy for some. In the case of my father who denied the obvious reasons for the Civil War I believe it stemmed from guilt he felt from what his ancestors did. I believe this is racist in origin in that one cannot feel guilty about the sins of ones ancestors unless one believes their ancestors are better than other “races”. In other words if one feels proud for being of a certain heritage to the detriment of others it is only natural to feel guilty of the sins of people of their heritage. This is very common and this type of denial is seen all over the world, look at Germany and Armenia.

I think you may have meant Turkey rather than Armenia. It was Turkey that tried to erase the existence of Armenia and the Armenian people. That is because Armenia was Christian and Turkey was Muslim in a time when tolerance did not exist.

Turkey to this day still insists that the Armenian genocide ever happened. And much of the world goes along or at least ignores the Armenian genocide for the reason of OIL.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

And what of the other Confederate states? They didn’t issue any such declarations so what were their motivation?

I think what you are missing is that the problem was not just concerns over slavery. There were plenty of other issues. It is most certainly true that the Confederate states were concerned about the issue of slavery. Their labor system relied heavily on slavery and they had invested a huge amount of money in this. Keep in mind it was the Union states who were involved more directly in the Slave Trade and profited from it. This added to the tension as it seemed the North was happy to profit from the trade, and then turn around and condemn the institution. If slavery were simply abolished slave owners would suffer a huge financial loss. Was the North willing to pay compensation? Given the regional tensions maybe not.

Besides that issue you had cultural differences. The South was more agricultural. Also the South paid most of the federal taxes.

But even if we suppose that the only reason the Confederate states seceded was to preserve slavery that still does not make the war about slavery because they are two separate issues. The states seceded prior to the war. But Lincoln refused to let them go their own way. According to Lincoln’s own words he was not fighting to end slavery but to preserve the Union.

I think the historical record is obvious enough that the slave states intended to keep slavery. Slavery might have continued for a number of years as it did in Brazil, Cuba and other countries. But what is a historical fantasy is that the North fought to end slavery. That is simply not supported by the evidence.

Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Tennessee seceded shortly after the North called for volunteers to fight. They stated that they did not wish to fire on their neighbors. But they knew what was going on, and they chose to side with the slave owning south. That the civil war was fought over slavery is beyond dispute. The letters I posted earlier are proof enough.

It’s more important to reflect on the cost of the war, particularly in human lives. It was our bloodiest conflict with an estimated 620,000 dead. Rich southerners, and their greed, were the cause of this.

ATB

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend the reasons some people continue to make excuses for the Confederacy and the American Civil War (not the War of Northern Aggression or the War of Succession of the War of States Rights or whatever…)

The American Civil War was a REBELLION by certain states mired in a feudal agriculture system that wrongly embraced the enslavement of human beings. Ya’all can sugah-coat it anyways ya want …but the truth is SLAVERY.

The whole incident was a black mark on our history.

Why “Confederate supporters” of today labor to justify the Civil War as a noble cause is completely beyond me.

When I see a Confederate flag (the ol’ Stars & Bars) I see a loser. An enemy of the United States. Just like the Flag of the Rising Sun or the Swastika of Nazi Germany or the Hammer & Cycle…all losers who tried to stand up against what America stands for…