Orignal Sin

[jonfawkes]

God didn’t set anyone up to fail. He specifically called humans to share, through knowledge and love, in His own life. Knowledge and love are the products of our spiritual soul’s intellect and will. This is the sign that we are made in the Image of God.

But why make Humans ( through the metaphor of Adam) jump through the hoops of Sin and Redemption to have us share his love and life. He’s God - he made Man, the Devil, Sin etc. He could have done anything He wanted. He knew Adam would fail, what was the purpose of the fall? We could have stayed in his grace without all the rigmarole.

Also If you take the story as explanation after the fact - meaning we are sinful this is metaphor to explain why. If God made us this way, it is what he intended. We’d still be in God’s grace because we are how he made us. If there is no fall there is no need for redemption.

Sorry - I’m trying to regain my faith for my children’s sake and this stuff is hanging me up.

 

[davidv]

But why make Humans ( through the metaphor of Adam) jump through the hoops of Sin and Redemption to have us share his love and life. He’s God - he made Man, the Devil, Sin etc. He could have done anything He wanted. He knew Adam would fail, what was the purpose of the fall? We could have stayed in his grace without all the rigmarole.

Also If you take the story as explanation after the fact - meaning we are sinful this is metaphor to explain why. If God made us this way, it is what he intended. We’d still be in God’s grace because we are how he made us. If there is no fall there is no need for redemption.

Sorry - I’m trying to regain my faith for my children’s sake and this stuff is hanging me up.

It seems to me you are beating up on a strawman.

What hoops is God causing anyone to jump through? He set before us Life and Death, Blessing and Curse and asked us to choose. Plus He gave us his Law (Divine and Natural) and His Church as guides to help us choose Life and Blessing rather than death and curse.

 

[jonfawkes]

The choice is the hoop. He made everything - life/death - blessing/curse. Why make us choose (free will). If Adam and Eve were in Grace why put them in a situation to fall from grace. I have children I try to keep them safe and give them the tools to make good decisions even though my power to do so is limited.

God’s power isn’t. Every good and evil is of His making. Every Blessing and Danger is of His making. If we have faults of character it is of His making. Everything is his creation. What is the point of putting us (humans) through the grist mill.

 

[davidv]

The choice is the hoop. He made everything - life/death - blessing/curse. Why make us choose (free will). If Adam and Eve were in Grace why put them in a situation to fall from grace. I have children I try to keep them safe and give them the tools to make good decisions even though my power to do so is limited.

God’s power isn’t. Every good and evil is of His making. Every Blessing and Danger is of His making. If we have faults of character it is of His making. Everything is his creation. What is the point of putting us (humans) through the grist mill.

More strawmen I see.

1. God didn’t create evil. Evil is the absence of good (God). Evil is the result of sin.
2. In order to love, A&E had to have the ability to choose not to
3. God gives us all the grace we need to stay safe
4. God made us in His image and likeness. Sin damages our likeness.
5. Evil isn’t a “thing”, it is a lacking.

Any grist mill is of our own making, not God’s.

 

[jonfawkes]

God says he creates evil - Isaiah 45:6-7. And in Gen He creates the Heavens and the Earth and everything that resides in them. The Devil, People, Angels et al.

You seem to imply that God isn’t omnipotent, that certain things are beyond his control.

He is the creator of everything - even dichotomy. The fact the A&E had to choose to experience love is of God’s making. He didn’t have to make it that way. He could have kept us in grace. There isn’t anything that isn’t of God.

So why make us have to chose to experience love - why can’t we just experience it. If it because of Sin - God make the conditions for us to sin. Opened the door and we stepped in. It’s circular - I don’t see the why of it. Unless God isn’t all powerful ( we can keep him away with sin / fall from grace), or He’s malevolent or negligent to let us Fall or we never fell from grace and are just as God made us. If that is the case there isn’t any need for redemption because we never fell.

 

[grannymh]

But why make Humans ( through the metaphor of Adam) jump through the hoops of Sin and Redemption to have us share his love and life. He’s God - he made Man, the Devil, Sin etc. He could have done anything He wanted. He knew Adam would fail, what was the purpose of the fall? We could have stayed in his grace without all the rigmarole.

Also If you take the story as explanation after the fact - meaning we are sinful this is metaphor to explain why. If God made us this way, it is what he intended. We’d still be in God’s grace because we are how he made us. If there is no fall there is no need for redemption.

Sorry - I’m trying to regain my faith for my children’s sake and this stuff is hanging me up.

I sympathize with your position. What I am hoping to do is to look at what happened in a better light. There was a poster on CAF who kept calling us sin machines. I did some tracing back on this idea and apparently a couple of early Protestant reformers saw human nature as corrupted after the fall. In contrast, Catholicism teaches that our human nature is still good even though it was wounded.

The *Catechism’s *paragraph 404 says “But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.” In Genesis, God looked at creation, including humans, as being good. He sees more good in us than we can know. Our “goodness” comes from our freedom to submit to God.

I have a hard time describing God in human terms and human ways. But if it were possible to do so, I can imagine God seeing all the people who would conquer temptations and choose to be with Him eternally. In a sense, God bears the sadness of Satan and others who who reject Him in order to bring you and your family to eternal happiness.

When your children were born, you loved them with all your being and they loved you with their drawings taped on the refrigerator. At some point, you realized that some day they would leave the nest which brings us heartache. Yet, would we ever deny them life?

The Catechism’s paragraph 412 begins with the question "But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning?’’ You may have to take this paragraph to the little room in the house, the only one where one can sit undisturbed, in order to read the difficulties in it. The one sentence which speaks to me is “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin;”

Blessings,
granny

*Isaiah 55 *

 

[davidv]

God says he creates evil - Isaiah 45:6-7. And in Gen He creates the Heavens and the Earth and everything that resides in them. The Devil, People, Angels et al.

Evil isn’t a thing. So it wasn’t created.

You seem to imply that God isn’t omnipotent, that certain things are beyond his control.

He gave up control control over you will so you can freely love Him, or not. It is your choice. His giving up control does not deny or diminish His omnipotence’

He is the creator of everything - even dichotomy. The fact the A&E had to choose to experience love is of God’s making. He didn’t have to make it that way.

So? that is the way He chose to do it. Wasn’t He free to do it that way?

He could have kept us in grace. There isn’t anything that isn’t of God.

Evil is not of God as it is contrary God.

So why make us have to chose to experience love - why can’t we just experience it.

Without choice there is no love. True love requires freely giving of oneself for the benefit of another.

If it because of Sin - God make the conditions for us to sin. Opened the door and we stepped in. It’s circular - I don’t see the why of it.

It also appears that you are unwilling understand the answers as to why that you have been given.

Unless God isn’t all powerful ( we can keep him away with sin / fall from grace), or He’s malevolent or negligent to let us Fall or we never fell from grace and are just as God made us.

This a false conclusion. Allowing humans to fall from grace has nothing to do with how powerful He is.

If that is the case there isn’t any need for redemption because we never fell.

It appears that you would benefit greatly from an in depth reading of the first several sections of the Catechism articles 1-73

 

[jonfawkes]

I am trying to find para 412 here catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/ and not finding your reference.

I guess I’m looking at it like God cast a play. He created the set, the characters and the story. So if you come from the assumption that man is out of a state of grace this is a story to explain why. All well and good but it’s God - omniscient and omnipotent. He knows the outcome of the action and the motivation of the characters. These all could change at his will. You could take the snake out of the story and Eve was just curious. Same outcome different motivation. So God creates this story to have us fall. Humans gain the knowledge of good and evil - this was in Gods power to grant us from the beginning if he chose to give it to us. If it truly separates us from Him why put in harms way. I don’t let my toddler play around a hot stove. Humans had no concept of what was to be gained or lost. Children. This play was at his making. Nothing happened without his want. So it must have been part of the plan. So he set us up to fail.

 

[davidv]

I am trying to find para 412 here catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/ and not finding your reference.

I guess I’m looking at it like God cast a play. He created the set, the characters and the story. So if you come from the assumption that man is out of a state of grace this is a story to explain why. All well and good but it’s God - omniscient and omnipotent. He knows the outcome of the action and the motivation of the characters. These all could change at his will. You could take the snake out of the story and Eve was just curious. Same outcome different motivation. So God creates this story to have us fall. Humans gain the knowledge of good and evil - this was in Gods power to grant us from the beginning if he chose to give it to us. If it truly separates us from Him why put in harms way. I don’t let my toddler play around a hot stove. Humans had no concept of what was to be gained or lost. Children. This play was at his making. Nothing happened without his want. So it must have been part of the plan. So he set us up to fail.

Paragraph 412 is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Your conclusion is based on false assumptions and is not likely true. See prior post for many of these false assumptions.

 

[grannymh]

The fact the A&E had to choose to experience love is of God’s making…

So why make us have to chose to experience love - why can’t we just experience it.

When I was in one of those philosophy classes that had to be taken in order to get a degree in liberal arts, I understood just enough about the spiritual soul to pass the course. Typically, I put off getting my questions answered. Fortunately, my ignorance never bothered me until a CAF poster respectfully pointed out my misconceptions. Getting over my errors and back on the right track has influenced my own spiritual life for the better, especially when I am at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Right now, this former poster and I are negotiating the proper language which describes our will seeking the greatest good. The way I understand our spirituality is that our will or soul is created at the get-go to seek God. Automatically the only choice is to experience God’s love. Adam was automatically established in God’s friendship. Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 355. Do you understand the difference between this and the way you expressed Adam and Eve choosing to experience God’s love?

What happened to Adam is the same thing which happens to us. We get caught up in this or that and mistakenly choose a lesser good than God or we choose something which is not good at all so we disguise it. Why all this goes with the territory of being human–who really knows?

Here is where the virtues of faith, hope and love are really needed. Sometimes we simply have to admit that it is a mystery. It is easier to accept a mystery which will lead us to eternal life when we listen to the conversation between two people dying on bloody crosses. “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Blessings,
granny

Luke 23: 33-43

 

[jonfawkes]

Evil isn’t a thing. So it wasn’t created.

He gave up control control over you will so you can freely love Him, or not. It is your choice. His giving up control does not deny or diminish His omnipotence’

So? that is the way He chose to do it. Wasn’t He free to do it that way?

Evil is not of God as it is contrary God.

Without choice there is no love. True love requires freely giving of oneself for the benefit of another.

It also appears that you are unwilling understand the answers as to why that you have been given.

This a false conclusion. Allowing humans to fall from grace has nothing to do with how powerful He is.

It appears that you would benefit greatly from an in depth reading of the first several sections of the Catechism articles 1-73

It seems that your answer is that the way God made it so deal with it. - My point is He’s GOd he could have make it anyway He wanted. “Without choice there is no love. True love requires freely giving of oneself for the benefit of another.” Why he could have made it differently why is the choice necessary? You seem to be limiting God.

 

[davidv]

It seems that your answer is that the way God made it so deal with it. - My point is He’s GOd he could have make it anyway He wanted. “Without choice there is no love. True love requires freely giving of oneself for the benefit of another.” Why he could have made it differently why is the choice necessary? You seem to be limiting God.

How do you think its limiting?

Have you asked God these questions?

I might conclude also that you think you are smarter than God because you would have done things differently.

 

[grannymh]

Please try this link for paragraph 412. www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Use the search bar for the Catechism of the Catholic Church and put in paragraph 412. Or try this link # CCC Search Result - Paragraph412

My apologies but I have to leave this worthwhile discussion to take care of some family matters.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[davidv]

Please try this link for paragraph 412. www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Use the search bar for the Catechism of the Catholic Church and put in paragraph 412. Or try this link CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 412

My apologies but I have to leave this worthwhile discussion to take care of some family matters.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

granny, thank you for you more pastoral tone than mine in your responses.

 

[jonfawkes]

No I don’t think I could do it better just going with the scripture as a guide. Like your statement “Choice is required for true love exist” Choice is a limiting factor - for TL to exist you MUST choose it. It is limited by the choice. God is limitless why put limits on True Love. Your Answer seems to be “because He did” - which is a non answer imo.

 

[davidv]

No I don’t think I could do it better just going with the scripture as a guide. Like your statement “Choice is required for true love exist” Choice is a limiting factor - for TL to exist you MUST choose it. It is limited by the choice. God is limitless why put limits on True Love. Your Answer seems to be “because He did” - which is a non answer imo.

You can choose to understand it that way if you what. But, I would say that you have misinterpreted what I wrote. Have you read the CCC references that were given? There is much, much more there than “because He did” in those references.

 

[jonfawkes]

Yes, I have read the Catechism - I had it memorized at one point in my life.

I guess It’s in the larger context of - If Jesus died to restore the state of grace of man, and A&E where the cause of the fall from grace - being God what was the point - he could have just kept us in grace. He’s God, His power is limitless. Seems like a lot of unnecessary suffering.

From the CCC - St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good”

What is the greater good that couldn’t be there from the beginning - God could have made it anyway he liked.

 

[davidv]

Yes, I have read the Catechism - I had it memorized at one point in my life.

It seems like you are not applying the knowledge gained from that reading to the response that were given.

I guess It’s in the larger context of - If Jesus died to restore the state of grace of man, and A&E where the cause of the fall from grace - being God what was the point - he could have just kept us in grace. He’s God, His power is limitless. Seems like a lot of unnecessary suffering. .

I will leave to you to figure out the point based on your knowledge of the CCC. Clue - Ponder, preferable in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, article #1.

God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

How would you know that there is any unnecessary suffering that isn’t the result of sin?

From the CCC - St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good”

What is the greater good that couldn’t be there from the beginning - God could have made it anyway he liked.

So, what makes you think God doesn’t like the way He did it?

 

[jonfawkes]

questions not answers - as empty as “it’s a mystery”

 

[davidv]

questions not answers - as empty as “it’s a mystery”