Orignal Sin

[jonfawkes]

I’m sure you did not mean to slip into the sophistry of creating a square circle. Even though those discussions can be fun like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, they do not illuminate the fact that Original Sin did occur.

No I just see it as circular - we fell so that we can have the Eucharist, we need the Eucharist because we fell.

 

[grannymh]

I don’t think we have to be clones or puppets. I question the need for the fall. He created us in grace - were we puppets then? Are you saying it was necessary to sin for us to lead a full life? So sin must have been part of the plan.

Pardon me. Where does Catholic teaching say that Original Sin was needed?

 

[jonfawkes]

That’s my point, why did it happen if it wasn’t needed? We were in grace why didn’t he keep us there.

Without the fall there is no need for redemption, with out the need for redemption there is no need for Christ. Without the need for Christ there is no Christianity.

 

[grannymh]

No I just see it as circular - we fell so that we can have the Eucharist, we need the Eucharist because we fell.

Pardon me. Where does Catholic teaching say that Original Sin made it possible for us to have the Eucharist?

The Eucharist is God Himself Who gives us Himself in a more intimate way than is recorded in Genesis.

As my Irish Mother would say. Don’t cry over spilled milk. Go get a towel and wipe it up.

Blessings,
granny

O Sacrament Most Holy,
O Sacrament Divine,
All praise and all thanksgiving,
be every moment Thine.

 

[jonfawkes]

Jesus and by extension the Eucharist ( body and blood of Christ) redeem us from sin so that we can be in a state of grace with God. We fell from grace with original sin. So for Jesus to be needed we needed to fall.

Why did need to be redeemed because we fell. We fell because we have free will, we have free will so we can choose to love God. Why do we need to choose to love God, Because we fell from Grace. It’s circular.

Why didn’t he just keep us in grace.?

 

[grannymh]

That’s my point, why did it happen if it wasn’t needed? We were in grace why didn’t he keep us there.

Without the fall there is no need for redemption, with out the need for redemption there is no need for Christ. Without the need for Christ there is no Christianity.

Did you forget the fact that human nature would still have intellect and free will? We would still be facing the same temptations of the material world and we still could personally choose ourselves over God.

Perhaps what is happening is that we are too used to the Adam and Eve versions found in children’s books. The adult reality of human nature needs to be brought forth.

Blessings,
granny

O Sacrament Most Holy,
O Sacrament Divine,
All praise and all thanksgiving,
be every moment Thine.

 

[grannymh]

That’s my point, why did it happen if it wasn’t needed? We were in grace why didn’t he keep us there.
.

Let’s shift the emphasis of the question to the “why”. The only reason that the fall happened is because Adam scorned his Creator. The creature is subject to the laws of creation. The Creator is the one who determines the laws which apply to humans.
If one asks why did God give these laws plus free will to us; then we also must ask why these laws were not given to elephants.

 

[grannymh]

Jesus and by extension the Eucharist ( body and blood of Christ) redeem us from sin so that we can be in a state of grace with God. We fell from grace with original sin. So for Jesus to be needed we needed to fall.

Why did need to be redeemed because we fell. We fell because we have free will, we have free will so we can choose to love God. Why do we need to choose to love God, Because we fell from Grace. It’s circular.

Why didn’t he just keep us in grace.?

We need to understand the difference between Original Sin and our own personal sins. We need to understand the difference between the Creator and the created.

We need to choose to be in free submission to God not because Adam fell from “Grace” but because we are creatures who unite the material and spiritual worlds. This makes us different from God and thus we are subject to Him as Creator.

We simply do not have the natural power to override the Creator’s plans. But we do have the supernatural means of rejecting God’s plans. This is because we have spiritual souls with intellect and will. Because we are also spiritual, we are called to share in God’s own life. Petunias do not have this power.

Why didn’t God just keep us in grace is inaccurate because God already gave Adam the opportunity to keep in grace. Adam, not God, chose to give up the state of grace.

We are not elephants and petunias. As humans, we are the pinnacle of creation. We are peerless. We are meant to reside with God eternally. The only thing which stands in our way is our own pride. Fortunately, we have to ability to freely choose humility.

Blessings,
granny

O Sacrament Most Holy,
O Sacrament Divine,
All praise and all thanksgiving,
be every moment Thine.

 

[IrishJoe]

Why didn’t God just keep us in grace is inaccurate because God already gave Adam the opportunity to keep in grace. Adam, not God, chose to give up the state of grace.

Adam did (well eve actually?), We don’t have a choice as that choice was taken from us when we were born. Then as I mentioned god ‘allows’ a thing he made to try pull us further from him.

It sounds pretty perverse.

 

[fhansen]

The choice is the hoop. He made everything - life/death - blessing/curse. Why make us choose (free will). If Adam and Eve were in Grace why put them in a situation to fall from grace. I have children I try to keep them safe and give them the tools to make good decisions even though my power to do so is limited.

God’s power isn’t. Every good and evil is of His making. Every Blessing and Danger is of His making. If we have faults of character it is of His making. Everything is his creation. What is the point of putting us (humans) through the grist mill.

But what’s wrong with that kind of hoop? Perhaps creation-in the form of us-cannot have both free will and the unwavering wisdom to use that freedom rightly-to *choose *rightly- unless we’ve first experienced a prodigals life to some degree-a life separated from the Father- if human freedom is to be considered genuinely free and not an otherwise meaningless concept.

IOW, can God create another god? Maybe the answer is “no”- that all creation is “flawed” in some respect simply by virtue of lacking the perfection only He has. And *creation’s *perfection lies first of all in being submitted to His perfect will-a submission which can only occur if there’s either no freedom to do otherwise or if the right choice is made in the case of beings who do possess that freedom. If existence is good, and free will is good, then can it be wrong for God to create, even knowing that His creation would abuse that freedom and fall at some point? And isn’t it still all worth it-even in a world so corrupted up by that same abuse-especially if God’s provided an answer-a redemption apparently aimed at lifting man even higher than the heights from which he fell? Is it wrong for God to ask His creation to simply choose to do what is objectively good and right? To choose love?

Our wills are the prize-they’re the very thing that can make us worthy-can make us great. God’s in the business of molding other “gods”. We just need to cooperate. And the first part of that cooperation is to come to see our need for Him. That we can do nothing apart from Him, while with Him nothing is impossible.

 

[jonfawkes]

Let’s shift the emphasis of the question to the “why”. The only reason that the fall happened is because Adam scorned his Creator. The creature is subject to the laws of creation. The Creator is the one who determines the laws which apply to humans.
If one asks why did God give these laws plus free will to us; then we also must ask why these laws were not given to elephants.

But God mad the creation - all capacity for good and for evil that is in man was placed there by God. We are his creations. God created the Situation and the Ability for Adam to fall. God made the rules. He is all knowing so in making Adam he knew he would fall.

Elephants don’t need to be saved because they never fell from grace.

 

[grannymh]

Adam did (well eve actually?), We don’t have a choice as that choice was taken from us when we were born. Then as I mentioned god ‘allows’ a thing he made to try pull us further from him.

It sounds pretty perverse.

We are born with basically the same human nature as Adam in that we are spirit/matter, rational/corporeal, body and soul. The difference between Catholicism and some of the other Christian religions is that Catholics believe that our human nature is still good in that we can continue to make informed choices. The ability to make choices, i.e., to exercise free will was never taken away from Adam or from us when we were born.

What God is allowing us to do is to use our intellect and will. This is the concept which people overlook.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for spiritual truth needs Catholicism.

 

[grannymh]

But God mad the creation - all capacity for good and for evil that is in man was placed there by God.

What is your understanding of "all capacity for good and for evil that is in man?

We are his creations.

What is our created nature? This is very important to completely understand.

God created the Situation and the Ability for Adam to fall.

God created the earth and animals etc. In themselves, the mountains, flowers, lions, rain, etc., do not have the ability to make Adam commit Original Sin. How do you find that material/physical creation has to power to make Adam choose sin?

God made the rules

.
As Creator, God can make the rules for the created.

He is all knowing so in making Adam he knew he would fall.

Does that mean that every person created by God would mortally sin by rejecting God’s grace and mercy at the moment of death?

Please remember that there is only one Original Sin which became a contracted sin transmitted by propagation.

Elephants don’t need to be saved because they never fell from grace.

My guess is that there is way too much concentration on “the fall” because it seems that all the other things which happened at the beginning are pushed aside. It is only the human species who was given a non-material, immortal, eternal spiritual soul.

I am asking questions because my sense is that a lot of wrong notions have crept into the concept of soul and sin. This may be why we seem to be on different tracks.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is part of human nature.

 

[jonfawkes]

for man to do evil he must have been given the ability to do evil. my car can’t fly even though I may want it to - it doesn’t have the ability. The fall was possible because we were given the ability and the means.

 

[davidv]

for man to do evil he must have been given the ability to do evil. my car can’t fly even though I may want it to - it doesn’t have the ability. The fall was possible because we were given the ability and the means.

Conversely we were given the ability and the means to do good.

Which will we choose?

 

[jonfawkes]

We were created in grace. We were in a state of “goodness” - yet we had to fall. Part of God’s plan was to have Adam choose to turn away. He put everything in place for him to make that choice. No apple no choice

 

[fhansen]

We were created in grace. We were in a state of “goodness” - yet we had to fall. Part of God’s plan was to have Adam choose to turn away. He put everything in place for him to make that choice. No apple no choice

No, he simply gave man free will. The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is one inevitable result of having that gift-the apple is the choice. The Catechism speaks on this:

**396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
**

 

[jonfawkes]

The tree was the means - I can say don’t write on the walls but unless I give you a pen there is no danger. God being omniscient knew the outcome so had to provide the “pen”.

 

[grannymh]

for man to do evil he must have been given the ability to do evil. my car can’t fly even though I may want it to - it doesn’t have the ability. The fall was possible because we were given the ability and the means.

Hopefully you will think about and answer the questions in post 73. I also hope you will think about the information regarding free will which was posted by others.

In my humble opinion, instead of mixing up words and definitions, it would be better to start over with clearer terminology. Wanting a car to fly has nothing to do with free will on the part of a human. The use of ability and means is very confusing when applied to a human since ultimately it comes down to the human’s free choice.

 

[jonfawkes]

The ability to do so means that we must have the capacity to do so. I can’t dunk a basketball although I wish I could - I have the desire not the means.