Orignal Sin

  • Thread starter Thread starter JTBT
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Jesus Suffered and Died so that we could return to a state of grace - His suffering could have been prevented. If God was happy with our fall he wouldn’t have sent the Christ.

You are empty as a bell - you aren’t bringing anything to the conversation.
 
jonfawkes said:
Jesus Suffered and Died so that we could return to a state of grace - His suffering could have been prevented. If God was happy with our fall he wouldn’t have sent the Christ.

You are empty as a bell - you aren’t bringing anything to the conversation.
Click to expand...
Attacking me is hardly an effective way of defending your position.
 
I’m not attacking you - I find your answers, “not answers”. like “it’s a mystery” it doesn’t go anywhere - it’s a shutdown, not a exploration.
 
why would God create us as puppets? When you create something you love you want it to express itself? Or would you deny your own child free-will? Is your child your puppet? When that child touches the hot stove and comes running to you for comfort, do you say sorry I told you not to touch it I have nothing for you? Someitmes that childs expressions wound you, but you still love that child, you want that child to come back.Do you want that child to express his love for you because he’s your puppet(without a mind of his own)? Or someone who truly loves you because now he knows the rules were there to protect him from the pain of the hot stove? And those things you tell him are because you love him, and don’t want him to suffer. Yes God gives us free-will because he wants that love to be free and not a puppet on a string. Could He have done it differently? sure He could have, but if you truly love something you have to be willing to set it free.
 
I don’t demand my children love me under the threat of punishment. I don’t tell my wife “love me or I’ll punch you in the nose” Sometimes a “choice” isn’t much of a choice. “Gimme your wallet or I’ll shoot you.”
 
You demand they listen to you under the penalty of a burn from a hot stove, right? That is what choice is about. You love them enough to warn them of the pain, and then you salve their wound, because you love them.
 
No, it’s a poor example - the burn from the stove isn’t inevitable and it’s a sliding scale - you can feel the heat from hot stove without getting burned. Or you can get a slight burn or a serious burn. My child will have to go near a stove to cook eventually. They may get burned accidentally no matter how careful they may be. It won’t end their cooking.

Love God or burn eternally. It’s an all or nothing proposition. Not a case of look both ways before crossing the street type scenario. It’s more like coercion - it’s an “or else” type scenario.
 
jonfawkes said:
No, it’s a poor example - the burn from the stove isn’t inevitable and it’s a sliding scale - you can feel the heat from hot stove without getting burned. Or you can get a slight burn or a serious burn. My child will have to go near a stove to cook eventually. They may get burned accidentally no matter how careful they may be. It won’t end their cooking.
Click to expand...
Punishment due sin is also not inevitable. We have plenty of warning in advance that there will be dire consequences if we sin.
Love God or burn eternally. It’s an all or nothing proposition.
Click to expand...
So you say, but God doesn’t say this.
Not a case of look both ways before crossing the street type scenario. It’s more like coercion - it’s an “or else” type scenario.
Click to expand...
Just because you think it is coercion doesn’t mean it is.
 
So being a Christian isn’t necessary? I can be an atheist and be ok with God.
 
Then you have to love him. It is an “or else” proposition. If you didn’t have to love and worship him being an atheist (or pagan) would be ok.
 
OS is the main reason I’m not a practicing Catholic.

From when we’re born our default is damnation.

Not only this but god permits a demon (which he created and yet isn’t good 🤷) to try and pull us off the ‘good path’ via temptation and oppose him. Which if we do we’ll go to hell.

Seems pretty twisted to me.

Also scripture says that the sins of the father are not passed onto the son. (and its opposite of course… 🤷)
 
jonfawkes said:
No I don’t think I could do it better just going with the scripture as a guide. Like your statement “Choice is required for true love exist” Choice is a limiting factor - for TL to exist you MUST choose it. It is limited by the choice. God is limitless why put limits on True Love. Your Answer seems to be “because He did” - which is a non answer imo.
Click to expand...
God is pure spirit which means He is without restrictions. If choice is described as having limited factors, then God loves – period.
However, we are creatures born with a spiritual/material nature. For us choices are made simply because of our limitations. This is part of our creature status.

Currently, I am personally amazed about our creature status. To even think that we are called to share in God’s life floors me. Because of our spiritual soul it is possible to share, through knowledge and love imperfect as they are, in God’s life.
 
grannymh said:
God is pure spirit which means He is without restrictions. If choice is described as having limited factors, then God loves – period.
However, we are creatures born with a spiritual/material nature. For us choices are made simply because of our limitations. This is part of our creature status.

Currently, I am personally amazed about our creature status. To even think that we are called to share in God’s life floors me. Because of our spiritual soul it is possible to share, through knowledge and love imperfect as they are, in God’s life.
Click to expand...
But he made our restrictions - he made matter. He made love.
 
jonfawkes said:
Yes, I have read the Catechism - I had it memorized at one point in my life.

I guess It’s in the larger context of - If Jesus died to restore the state of grace of man, and A&E where the cause of the fall from grace - being God what was the point - he could have just kept us in grace. He’s God, His power is limitless. Seems like a lot of unnecessary suffering.

From the CCC - St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good”

What is the greater good that couldn’t be there from the beginning - God could have made it anyway he liked.
Click to expand...
Creatures, including rational humans, were not created the same as God Who is an unlimited transcendent spirit.God does not make other gods.

Regarding question "What is the greater good that couldn’t be there from the beginning? My first suggestion would be the Eucharist.
 
But the Eucharist is only necessary because of the fall. Without the fall we don’t need to be saved from the fall.

Why can’t God create gods? He’s omnipotent.
 
Linus2 said:
why would God create us as puppets? When you create something you love you want it to express itself? Or would you deny your own child free-will? Is your child your puppet? When that child touches the hot stove and comes running to you for comfort, do you say sorry I told you not to touch it I have nothing for you? Someitmes that childs expressions wound you, but you still love that child, you want that child to come back.Do you want that child to express his love for you because he’s your puppet(without a mind of his own)? Or someone who truly loves you because now he knows the rules were there to protect him from the pain of the hot stove? And those things you tell him are because you love him, and don’t want him to suffer. Yes God gives us free-will because he wants that love to be free and not a puppet on a string. Could He have done it differently? sure He could have, but if you truly love something you have to be willing to set it free.
Click to expand...
I just read this post. If we can step back for a moment and not think about God creating His clones, we may be able to better understand God giving Adam and intellect and will.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55
 
jonfawkes said:
But the Eucharist is only necessary because of the fall. Without the fall we don’t need to be saved from the fall.

Why can’t God create gods? He’s omnipotent.
Click to expand...
I’m sure you did not mean to slip into the sophistry of creating a square circle. Even though those discussions can be fun like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, they do not illuminate the fact that Original Sin did occur.
 
I don’t think we have to be clones or puppets. I question the need for the fall. He created us in grace - were we puppets then? Are you saying it was necessary to sin for us to lead a full life? So sin must have been part of the plan.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top