Orthodox and birth control

[josephdaniel29]

These are good questions and I suggest first reading this wonderful article:

Contraception: Why Not?

and this some various Church teachings on why NFP is not sinful:
usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/cathteach.shtml

I appreciate the links but they don’t really address the question I asked. What would those reasons be and do you have to receive a blessing from your priest to practice NFP?

But after skimming the piece I think we need to get a couple of things straight. We don’t oppose your right to proscribe artificial birth control in your Church. You have a right to set the rules as you see fit, just as Russian Orthodox Church would if they decided to completely proscribe artificial birth control. Second any discussion that includes any abortifacient is not relevant to our discussion. We don’t allow it and never will because it could potentially kill a life. Third we don’t allow artificial contraception as a matter of course. I asked the above question for a reason. Orthodox are not allowed to use artificial contraception. The only exception is for very rare, very serious reasons the Church allows the priests to make a pastoral decision and then only after consultation and much deliberation. I don’t use artificial contraception and judging by the enormous numbers of infants and young children in our parish I don’t think anyone else is either.

The bottom line is if myself or the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the world today were to use a condom tonight it would be a serious sin. I think it’s important that we frame our discussion in that light.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[josephdaniel29]

what is an accidental pregnancy? A pregnancy means something went right.

Indeed, and I think it’s terribly irresponsible for you to assume the few Orthodox Christians who have a blessing to use artificial contraception wouldn’t feel the same.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Peter_J]

What would those reasons be and do you have to receive a blessing from your priest to practice NFP?

Just to take a stab at this, a possible explanation would be that the need for NFP is so common that the Church has simply delegated the decision to married couples en masse.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Indeed, and I think it’s terribly irresponsible for you to assume the few Orthodox Christians who have a blessing to use artificial contraception wouldn’t feel the same.

Yours in Christ
Joe

I think that would be part of the problem: no priest or bishop can change the moral law God has put in place.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I think that would be part of the problem: no priest or bishop can change the moral law God has put in place.

Indeed. But I think to look at the letter without also looking at the spirit is a mistake. That is what the Pharisees did. Sin is missing the mark and we can miss the mark just a easily through our virtues as we can our vices. In other words you can keep the law perfectly and still separate yourself from God. Do you feel that a couple who practices NFP for selfish reasons is less sinful than an Orthodox couple who practices artificial birth control for serious reasons, such as serious health concerns?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Indeed. But I think to look at the letter without also looking at the spirit is a mistake. That is what the Pharisees did. Sin is missing the mark and we can miss the mark just a easily through our virtues as we can our vices. In other words you can keep the law perfectly and still separate yourself from God. Do you feel that a couple who practices NFP for selfish reasons is less sinful than an Orthodox couple who practices artificial birth control for serious reasons, such as serious health concerns?

Yours in Christ
Joe

Lawful Therapeutic Means
15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...ts/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

 

[Jennifer_J]

What would those reasons be and do you have to receive a blessing from your priest to practice NFP?

Yours in Christ
Joe

Sorry, I have 6 children to take care of and haven’t had a chance to get back here…

Here’s one link that discusses it briefly…
usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/seriousq.shtml

<<“Grave and Serious”]
Paul VI in his encyclical, Humanae vitae (1968), while condemning the use of all contraceptive methods for even grave (gravia) reasons declared licit the recourse to the infertile periods if the spouses have good (just and seria) reasons to postpone even indefinitely another pregnancy. (HV, nos. 16, 10). The language here is similar to Gaudium et Spes no. 10. But first those spouses are commended who, with prudent deliberation and generosity, choose to accept a large family. The spouses are to consider their responsibilities towards God, themselves, the family, and human society. Each of these factors may be taken into account in right order in determining “serious and just reasons.”

In other words the spouses are to discern together first, what is God’s plan for their family here and now, then, their own physical and emotional resources for accepting another child, the needs of other family members, and lastly the good of the human society in which they live. The pope gives special encouragement to scientists to perfect the natural methods, (HV, no. 24) declaring that the discipline of chastity exercised in periodic continence enhances married life provided the spouses value the true blessings of family. (HV, no. 21) >>

A spiritual director is a good idea, but not necessary in most cases, though if there is doubt about your situation, taking it to a priest is a good idea. Generally, the reasons are health related–both physical and mental, financial reasons and societal reasons (think natural disaster, China’s one child policy, etc.). NFP should be used prudently and prayerfully and hopefully–barring serious medical issues or issues that don’t change–for limited time.

I hope that this makes sense…I’m posting in the midst of child chaos, lol. There are other documents I could site, but I have to search for them and it will take me a bit…

added link:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea2.asp
ewtn.com/expert/answers/nfp_serious_motives.htm

 

[josephdaniel29]

A spiritual director is a good idea, but not necessary in most cases, though if there is doubt about your situation, taking it to a priest is a good idea. Generally, the reasons are health related–both physical and mental, financial reasons and societal reasons (think natural disaster, China’s one child policy, etc.). NFP should be used prudently and prayerfully and hopefully–barring serious medical issues or issues that don’t change–for limited time.

Those are some of the exact reasons the Orthodox Church may allow artificial contraception, the biggest difference being it’s never allowed without the blessing of a priest. So the reasons that both NFP in the Catholic Church and artificial birth control in the Orthodox Church are allowed are the same, the difference being Catholics don’t need permission to practice NFP, and the intent is absolutely identical, the prevention of a pregnancy.

As I said before it seems the only real difference is you guys think that NFP is less likely to thwart God’s will and is therefore acceptable in the exact same circumstances in which artificial birth control wouldn’t be.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Peter_J]

As I said before it seems the only real difference is you guys think that NFP is less likely to thwart God’s will and is therefore acceptable in the exact same circumstances in which artificial birth control wouldn’t be.

I can see how it might seem that way from listening to a lot of Catholics talk about it, but in fact that’s not the case at all.

Those are some of the exact reasons the Orthodox Church may allow artificial contraception, the biggest difference being it’s never allowed without the blessing of a priest. So the reasons that both NFP in the Catholic Church and artificial birth control in the Orthodox Church are allowed are the same, the difference being Catholics don’t need permission to practice NFP, and the intent is absolutely identical, the prevention of a pregnancy.

But, just as it would be legalistic to disregard intention, so too it would be legalistic to only consider intention.

If a couple uses NFP with a “contraceptive mentality”, then that’s morally wrong, no doubt about it. But to use ABC is intrinsically morally wrong, even without a “contraceptive mentality”.

 

[josephdaniel29]

But, just as it would be legalistic to disregard intention, so too it would be legalistic to only consider intention.

Indeed, but to remove all subjectivity from the process makes null and void the grace of the episcopacy.

If a couple uses NFP with a “contraceptive mentality”, then that’s morally wrong, no doubt about it. But to use ABC is intrinsically morally wrong, even without a “contraceptive mentality”.

No in this case it’s the intent that is morally wrong. Remember, in the New Covenant it’s the purpose of the law by which we are judged not the letter. Jesus went to great lengths to illustrate this fact. Jesus condemned again and again the Pharisees for placing the letter of the law above the intent of the law. Please don’t misunderstand me, I don’t think that Catholics do this, but placing the letter above the spirit may be a greater sin than breaking the letter.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Jennifer_J]

Those are some of the exact reasons the Orthodox Church may allow artificial contraception, the biggest difference being it’s never allowed without the blessing of a priest. So the reasons that both NFP in the Catholic Church and artificial birth control in the Orthodox Church are allowed are the same, the difference being Catholics don’t need permission to practice NFP, and the intent is absolutely identical, the prevention of a pregnancy.

As I said before it seems the only real difference is you guys think that NFP is less likely to thwart God’s will and is therefore acceptable in the exact same circumstances in which artificial birth control wouldn’t be.

Yours in Christ
Joe

I know next to nothing about the Orthadox view on this, however, I can tell you that the Catholic Church view is that artificial birth control is morally wrong. It has kept this teaching for all time. It’s not the intention that is the problem, as I’ve said, the controlling of birth is morally okay–it’s the means that are the problem. Artificial methods of birth control distort and change the marital embrace. NFP does nothing to each and every act–the act remains as God created it. I can’t explain it clearer than that.

 

[mardukm]

That’s ridiculous. So having sex only when there is no egg present is not seeking to prevent the sperm from meeting the egg? If you’re not trying to prevent a pregnancy why do it in the first place?

Yes that’s right. During the sex act in NFP, there is nothing UNNATURAL that prevents the sperm from meeting the egg, unless you want to blame God for giving the woman infertile periods.:tsktsk:

ABC violates the Natural Law, pure and simple. Demonstrate to me that it doesn’t.

Or I’ll give you another option: demonstrate to us how postponing pregnancy for the sake of being able to provide sufficiently for your child violates the Natural Law.

Wanting to postpone pregnancy for a good/valid reason does not violate the Natural Law. That is the only thing that practicitioners of ABC and practitioners of NFP have in common. The difference is that the MANNER in which ABC users realize the common goal violate’s GOD’S Natural Law, while NFP users don’t.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[josephdaniel29]

I know next to nothing about the Orthadox view on this, however, I can tell you that the Catholic Church view is that artificial birth control is morally wrong. It has kept this teaching for all time. It’s not the intention that is the problem, as I’ve said, the controlling of birth is morally okay–it’s the means that are the problem. Artificial methods of birth control distort and change the marital embrace. NFP does nothing to each and every act–the act remains as God created it. I can’t explain it clearer than that.

Well therein lies all of the disagreement and confusion. You believe the sin lies primarily in the means and we believe it lies primarily in the intent.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[mark_a]

You’ve still failed to make any clear distinction between an accidental pregnancy on a spermicide and one using NFP

There is no such thing as an accidental pregnancy when using NFP.

except to say that one is “open to life”, whatever that’s supposed to mean and your strange and completely illogical assertion that if an accidental pregnancy occurs with a spermicide the “blame game” will start. As though first of all that’s relevant and second that you could possibly know that.

I know of many situations where failed or improperly used contraception has resulted in the blame game, although I must admit these folks are not Orthodox.

I just think it’s comical that you guys justify your position by saying basically it’s more likely that a couple might mess up and have a child by accident using NFP therefore it’s not a sin and artificial contraception is when they both are attempting to do the exact same thing, prevent a pregnancy.

NFP is not necessarily sinless.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Well therein lies all of the disagreement and confusion. You believe the sin lies primarily in the means and we believe it lies primarily in the intent.

Yours in Christ
Joe

Soooo, let’s say I need money to get medicine for my sick child…my intent is to get money. I can get money by robbing a store OR I can get money by working an extra job. The means I choose to use can be either illict or licit. This is the same argument–controlling/limiting births is licit, however, the means used can be either licit or illicit…

I don’t think it’s legalistic, I think it’s humans trying to apply Jesus’ teachings to real life problems…I’m thankful to have a Church that has a logical thought process on this problem. It doesn’t make NFP any easier when we’ve needed to use it, but I’m glad the option is available because total abstinence until menopause would be extraheroic, at least in my eyes . I know it’s totally possible and all that, but I’m still glad

 

[mark_a]

That being said I just can’t wrap my head around the mindset of Roman Catholics.

There are many of us who, being part of American culture of killing, were pro-choice and pro-contraception.

We are the ones who maybe even thought about Orthodoxy because we saw in Orthodoxy a very attractive, less-than-traditional view of contraception.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Originally Posted by josephdaniel29 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
* That being said I just can’t wrap my head around the mindset of Roman Catholics.*

What is there not to get? Sex is for babies and bonding.

And if you remove one of those two, you get a distorted icon of what God has intended for us. If you removed the bonding part, you’ll objectified your spouse and probably guilty of lust. If you remove the babies part, you’ve commited the sin of contraception. God doesn’t like contraception, see Genesis 38 if you don’t beleive me. Onan was killed because he took the babies part out of sex. If Onan body was destroyed under the Old Law, it does follow that your soul is destroyed (mortal sin) uner the New Law.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Soooo, let’s say I need money to get medicine for my sick child…my intent is to get money. I can get money by robbing a store OR I can get money by working an extra job. The means I choose to use can be either illict or licit. This is the same argument–controlling/limiting births is licit, however, the means used can be either licit or illicit…

Which would be the greater sin, to allow the innocent child to die a slow painful death or to steal from the store?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[josephdaniel29]

What is there not to get? Sex is for babies and bonding.

And if you remove one of those two, you get a distorted icon of what God has intended for us. If you removed the bonding part, you’ll objectified your spouse and probably guilty of lust. If you remove the babies part, you’ve commited the sin of contraception. God doesn’t like contraception, see Genesis 38 if you don’t beleive me. Onan was killed because he took the babies part out of sex. If Onan body was destroyed under the Old Law, it does follow that your soul is destroyed (mortal sin) under the New Law.

I don’t know what’s not to get. The entire purpose of NFP is to take the babies out of sex. No matter how you try to justify it in your minds that’s a fact. If that is your logic every Catholic who practices NFP is just as guilty.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I don’t know what’s not to get. The entire purpose of NFP is to take the babies out of sex. No matter how you try to justify it in your minds that’s a fact. If that is your logic every Catholic who practices NFP is just as guilty.

Yours in Christ
Joe

Your confusing what condoms and birth control pills do versus periodic abstinence.

Any comments about Genesis 38?