Orthodox and birth control

[Mickey]

You did look at the thread I mentioned, right?

Yes.

 

[mardukm]

Adopt the Holy Orthodox way of counseling, mercy, compassion, forgiveness and love.

Those are nice words to use, but if they are for the purpose of covering up an excuse to sin, your PR work is useless in the eyes of God.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mickey]

Those are nice words to use

Thank you. They are words of truth.

but if they are for the purpose of covering up an excuse to sin, your PR work is useless in the eyes of God.

Your back handed insults and judgements do not affect me. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Peter_J]

Thank you. They are words of truth.
Your back handed insults and judgements do not affect me. May God have mercy on your soul.

We Catholics need to be honest about what we believe, just as you Orthodox need to be honest about what you believe.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

I have come here today to state to you that the majority of Bishops, Startsy, Clergy and laity of those Churches commonly referred to as Orthodox firmly believe all forms of contraception to be intrinsically evil.

I have seen and continue to see a few Latin and Eastern Catholics insult and condemn the Orthodox Church for “permitting use of contraception”. Often times they use it as evidence that they are the true church and the orthodox are heretics. If this were true I would agree with them. However one can not let a single man such as Stanley Harakas be the spokesperson for 250,000,000 people.

In the Western Industrialized world, such as the USA, people are confused about the social role of a person. The role of a father, a mother, a circus clown, a priest, a farmer, homosexual, heterosexual, life, death. They do not know where one begins and one ends. They think that technology and enlightened philosophy can bring utopia on earth.

Despite the individual heretics within the West and Urban centers of the East, No Orthodox Church will ever accept contraception or in vitro fertilization as good holy practices. There are no canons that accept them in history of the world, nor will there ever be. Individual clergy’s opinions to the contrary show themselves as heresies.

The Orthodox reluctance to codify regulations on doctrinal matters has served it well in the past. However, the Church has always laid down the law when division over doctrine threatens the integrity of its witness to Christ. The Catholic Church has had the courage to do this in the context of the debate over contraception. To date, the Orthodox Church has not. Until (and also when) it does, it stands to learn a great deal from the Catholic approach. - Bill Congdon on Orthodoxytoday

I think that Rome is way out in front of us on this one. I bet we’ll catch up and the Orthodox will eventually teach the same. - David Lewis on Orthodoxytoday

Here is a fine example of what a discussion of Contraception would sound like in a typical Orthodox parish in the USA made up of both converts and cradle Orthodox:
orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2005/06/28/letter-to-editor-on-orthdox-russia-mail-list/

 

[mark_a]

I have come here today to state to you that the majority of Bishops, Startsy, Clergy and laity of those Churches commonly referred to as Orthodox firmly believe all forms of contraception to be intrinsically evil.

I have seen and continue to see a few Latin and Eastern Catholics insult and condemn the Orthodox Church for “permitting use of contraception”. Often times they use it as evidence that they are the true church and the orthodox are heretics. If this were true I would agree with them. However one can not let a single man such as Stanley Harakas be the spokesperson for 250,000,000 people.

In the Western Industrialized world, such as the USA, people are confused about the social role of a person. The role of a father, a mother, a circus clown, a priest, a farmer, homosexual, heterosexual, life, death. They do not know where one begins and one ends. They think that technology and enlightened philosophy can bring utopia on earth.

Despite the individual heretics within the West and Urban centers of the East, No Orthodox Church will ever accept contraception or in vitro fertilization as good holy practices. There are no canons that accept them in history of the world, nor will there ever be. Individual clergy’s opinions to the contrary show themselves as heresies.

This is all good to know. Except for the contraception issue, Catholic apologists regularly favorably compare Catholics to Orthodox.

Here is a fine example of what a discussion of Contraception would sound like in a typical Orthodox parish in the USA made up of both converts and cradle Orthodox:
orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2005/06/28/letter-to-editor-on-orthdox-russia-mail-list/

Can you link us to some official Orthodox documents concerning contraception?

 

[Petergee]

The Roman Catholic priest usually already has the permission of the bishop to absolve the confessee in such circumstances.

Permission to absolve them of their sin. NOT permission to lift their excommunication. Only the bishop can do that.

 

[Petergee]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
We Catholics do not believe bishops (or even the Pope) has the authority to make laws that are contrary to God’s laws.
Can you say: Infallibility.

If you honestly think that the doctrine of infallibility is incompatible with this statement, it shows that your ignorance of this doctrine is almost total. Even atheists in the secular media usually show a better grasp of the doctrine than that.

 

[Petergee]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
IF nullity is declared (and in many cases it is not) two people who (may have) THOUGHT they were sacramentally married are found to have NEVER been sacramentally married.
The retroactive erasure of the sacrament.

Are you actually reading and understanding what you see? Nothing has been “erased”. The sacrament never existed. the sacrament of Marriage is inerasible in this life.

 

[steve_b]

Wrong Mark.

It does not matter how you try to twist or spin doctor. The legalistic practice of decree of nullity is shameful. People are married for 25 years with children and suddenly they are granted an annulment of said marriage because the “Church” deems that the sacrament never really occurred. Does this mean that the children of said marriage never really occurred? Oh wait–Rome says that the children are legitimate. But wait, the marriage never happened! But hey, there are children that were born into the world as a result of the love between this man and wife–and now we hear that they were never “really” married! But the “Church” says the children are legitimate. Round and round we go. :whacky:

Can a couple enter into a contract with each other yet not have a sacrament?

 

[Mickey]

Nothing has been “erased”. The sacrament never existed.

Yeah. So they say.

 

[Mickey]

If you honestly think that the doctrine of infallibility is incompatible with this statement, it shows that your ignorance of this doctrine is almost total.

Papal Infallibility was not known in the early undivided Church of the first millennium. The councils knew nothing of it, nor did the early Church Fathers. It was a doctrine which was promulgated and championed by the Ultramontanists of post schism Rome. It was rejected by the Latin Catholic councils of Constance and Basel. Finally, it was defined by Pius IX in 1870 at the first Vatican council amongst considerable opposition. It has widened the schism between East and West ever since.

 

[Mickey]

Permission to absolve them of their sin. NOT permission to lift their excommunication. Only the bishop can do that.

I was Roman Catholic for most of my life. I was told by priests that abortion is an automatic self ex-communication and that the priest has the permission and authority of the bishop to absolve the person of this sin—hence automatically lifting the ex-communication.

Of course I could have been given wrong info.

 

[steve_b]

That’s nice. And here is my solution:

Do away with the legalistic excuse for pretending that marriages never ocurred through decrees of nullity. Adopt the Holy Orthodox way of counseling, mercy, compassion, forgiveness and love.

Catholics are legalistic but the Orthodox aren’t? sheesh!!!

Scroll through this Orthodox legal court stuff, down to marital issues and divorce. Yes all highly legalistic.

oca.org/DOCstatute.asp?SID=12&ID=11

I hope you don’t use the “legalistic” polemic again. It doesn’t work.

 

[Mickey]

Catholics are legalistic but the Orthodox aren’t?

Correct. But it cannot be helped. It is a natural outgrowth of scholastic philosophy and the need to define everything.

 

[steve_b]

Correct.

Incorrect.

As I said before, if you insist on your polemic of calling the CC legalistic, I’ll show you where the OC is legalistic. Maybe you’ll knock off the polemic.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4072219&postcount=173

 

[Mickey]

if you insist on your polemic of calling the CC legalistic

Yes. It is very legalistic.

I’ll show you where the OC is legalistic.

LOL!!! Your little example is a far cry from the Catholic marriage tribunals.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Yes. It is very legalistic.
LOL!!! Your little example is a far cry from the Catholic marriage tribunals.

I just don’t get how that Catholic Church can say in the same breath: “Your marriage was never valid so you can have an annulment, but your children are legit.”

Illegitimacy is being born outside of a valid marriage - so either the Catholic Church needs to recognize that the children are illegitiment when the parents divorce civily and obtain Catholic Church Annulments or they need to create a new word to describe such children of invalid unions.

Makes no logical sense!

Now we all know that Jesus allowed for divorce…“in cases of infidelity”, but the Catholic Church does not. I’m thinking that the Catholic Church thinks of itself as holier than God? Perish the thought.

 

[Mickey]

I just don’t get how that Catholic Church can say in the same breath: “Your marriage was never valid so you can have an annulment, but your children are legit.”

I cannot seem to come to terms with that one either.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Newlywed Orthodox couple, don’t want children for X amounts of years because they want to enjoy being “young”/further their careers/want to buy a house/you choose. The guy agrees to condoms and the woman to “birth control” pills for this period of **X **years.

Are they commiting sin if they proceed down this course of action?

Would our Orthodox bretheren answer this question so we can all be on the same page, at least for a while.