Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary

[Peter_J]

Hi Peter,

I don’t know, I have had more than one person suggest that I am damned.

Well, we Catholics are a very large and diverse bunch, and I certainly wouldn’t want to over-generalize, but I think it’s at least say to say that the vast majority of Catholics wouldn’t say that you’re damned.

 

[BernadetteM]

Hi BernadetteM. I think I could agree with what you are saying, except for one thing: we Catholics are required to be believe the dogma of the I.C., as defined by Pope Pius IX. I don’t see how to reconcile that fact that the idea that “in the end there really is no difference”. (Just imagine an Orthodox Christian approaching a Catholic priest, interested in converting, and being told “Well, our Marian differences don’t really matter; but you can’t become Catholic unless you change what you believe.”)

P.S. Plus, I think you might be a little confused about what the Catholic Church teaches. It’s not just a matter of “when”.

Hello Peter,

Yes I understand the belief in the Immaculate Conception, but I also believe that the Orthodox do believe as we do. They don’t admit it, and I know they don’t accept Original Sin, but does that really mean that they don’t believe that Mary was made immaculate from the moment of her Conception? I used the term when because they don’t seem to be able to point to a time or won’t say the moment of Conception. But logically it has to be the moment of Conception as God knew Mary before she was conceived and prepared her to carry His Most Beloved Son.

Sometimes reading these posts I feel that people just want to be correct and to be correct they must argue against our beliefs. Since the split with the Catholic Church, from what I gather the Orthodox don’t seem to agree on every doctrine of their separate ethnic Churches. Of course I surely am not an expert in any belief system, it is just my observations. As I stated in my last post when I read the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom I understood them to mean exactly what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary. Just as protestants must prove us wrong or they are the ones who are wrong, the Orthodox must also prove they are right and we are wrong. Although many of the issues don’t seem to be of great importance. I am not referring to Original sin, or the IC. Just like Purgatory, some Orthodox believe in something that seems similar, but I can’t recall what they call it. However from what I have read it seems very strange. To me the Catholic Church is so straight up about Her doctrines and dogmas, altough I don’t articulate them well I understand them. The Orthodox doctrines seem so strange to me and I wonder if many Orthodox really understand their own faith, just as some Catholics don’t know their faith.

Of course if I didn’t feel that the Catholic Church was the True Church I would not be part of it. I love the Church with all the faults of the members. I haven’t seen any church, prtotestant, Orthodox or Catholic without sinners. I include myself. I try not to judge others as I truely believe that the Lord will accept Christians who through no fault of their own cannot accept the fullness of truth. I also feel if someone closes their hearts to the truth of the Catholic Church out of hate and defames the Church and our Holy Mother they will face a very harsh judgement.

Well from all the posts from Catholics on these boards we can honestly say that Catholics do have minds of their own and the Pope doesn’t control our thoughts as some protestants like to think.

God Bless

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Bernadette,

…I understand the belief in the Immaculate Conception, but I also believe that the Orthodox do believe as we do.

Wrong.

They don’t admit it,

Are you suggesting that there is this vast conspiracy? Perhaps a hundred million people secretly plotting to confound you?

and I know they don’t accept Original Sin,

Not precisely as you might define it.

but does that really mean that they don’t believe that Mary was made immaculate from the moment of her Conception?

She was as immaculate as you Bernadette.

Sometimes reading these posts I feel that people just want to be correct and to be correct they must argue against our beliefs.

If you ask a question, you get an answer. If you don’t want to know what Orthodox think, just don’t ask.

Or were you really just interested in starting an argument?

Since the split with the Catholic Church,

Since the church of the west split with the Communion.

from what I gather the Orthodox don’t seem to agree on every doctrine of their separate ethnic Churches.

Wrong once again.

Of course I surely am not an expert in any belief system, it is just my observations. As I stated in my last post when I read the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom I understood them to mean exactly what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary.

A common mistake for Latin Catholics to make.

Just as protestants must prove us wrong or they are the ones who are wrong, the Orthodox must also prove they are right and we are wrong.

Holy Orthodoxy has no need to prove anything. Either you believe or you do not.

As it is said, we can lead a horse to water, but we cannot make it drink.

Well from all the posts from Catholics on these boards we can honestly say that Catholics do have minds of their own and the Pope doesn’t control our thoughts as some protestants like to think.

That’s for sure.

Peace and all good things,
Michael

 

[BernadetteM]

Hello Bernadette, Wrong.
Are you suggesting that there is this vast conspiracy? Perhaps a hundred million people secretly plotting to confound you?
Not precisely as you might define it. She was as immaculate as you Bernadette.
If you ask a question, you get an answer. If you don’t want to know what Orthodox think, just don’t ask.

Or were you really just interested in starting an argument?
Since the church of the west split with the Communion.
Wrong once again.
A common mistake for Latin Catholics to make.
Holy Orthodoxy has no need to prove anything. Either you believe or you do not.

As it is said, we can lead a horse to water, but we cannot make it drink.
That’s for sure.

Peace and all good things,
Michael

First of course I was not trying to start an argument. When I read the liturgy I could understand no other than what I quoted. Also in the liturgy it says "holy, pure most blessed and Glorious Lady. When you look up what holy means, it says set apart or sacred. Pure says free from taint. From my background which is not a Latin Catholic, who had no education in religious terminology I believe that taint would mean there would be nothing unclean in that person.

Maybe some people feel they are immaculate, but I surely know that I am not and never will be. I would never compare myself with the Lord’s Holy Mother.

Also I don’t consider that there has been a vast conspiracy against anyone or thing.

In the end we all must decide for ourselves what is truth and what is not.

I am sorry if you took my posts in the wrong way. That was not my intent. We each believe what we believe and as I have said before I do not judge a person for their choices. But I surely can differ with their conclusions.

The one thing I find on these forums that no matter a person’s faith many cannot discuss differences and say how they feel in their heart without people getting angry. If someone feels they are right, then why not just state the facts as they see them and not attack the person in a personal manner.

You have a right to what you believe and I find no fault in that, but please don’t attack me as I was not attacking you. I can disagree and say how I feel about another’s church without making personal comments.

I made comments about how I perceived what I read in the Orthodox liturgy and my comments were not about you.

If my perception of Orthodoxy is wrong then God will deal with me and the same goes for others if their perceptions are wrong about the Catholic Church.

I am not an argumentative person and do not wish to make anyone feel angy or hurt by my remarks. I just stated how I saw it and it was not a reflection on you. Besides I said nothing bad about the Orthodox Church. I have never felt that they were not our brothers and sisters in Christ.

If I harmed you in any way I apologize. As I stated debate is not one of my strong points and that was not what I was trying to do. Just state my opinion.

God Bless

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[mlouise007]

Hi Bernadette! I’m glad you’re still engaged here.

I know that I do not possess all the great skills of debate that others of these boards do, so I will just read everyones’ answers if anyone chooses to post.

I’m not a debater, neither the brains nor the temperament for it. Those debates seem to erupt around the rest of us once the topics get going. I’m glad to have learned a number of things from responses made in this thread in the nature of dialogue. That is always so helpful for me as I seek to learn more about Orthodoxy and our ECCs.

When I went to St. Luke the Evangelist Orothodox Church’s website, which appears to be connected to the Russian Orthodox Church and read their Liturgy, the Entrance Prayers were quite atonishing to me…
I am not familiar with our Easter Rite Churches so I can’t say anything about their liturgies, but find that from what I have read the Orthodox place Mary as high or even higher than the Catholic Church does.

At the risk of getting in trouble again , as a lay person, Latin Rite, with a limited number of experiences in mainly Byzantine CC (a couple Sundays most months), and in Russian Orthodox (OCA), Greek Orthodox (GOArch, and Jerusalem Patriarchate) churches, those Orthodox visits mainly on Feast Days, I cannot tell the difference between the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at my Byzantine Church and the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at this Russian Orthodox and at these Greek Orthodox churches, all in the western US. I humbly say that so you might have an idea of the reality of the closeness of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom Catholic and Orthodox, at least in these cases and from my lay Latin perspective.

Were you to come to a Byzantine CC for Liturgy I think you might indeed *experience * a much larger place for Mary the mother of God, Theotokos, in the text/hymnography of Liturgy than in the text and hymns of a Latin Rite Mass, NO or EF. What our understanding as Latins is of that language and prominence as compared to the Eastern understanding of that is another topic, but as a Latin Catholic I would agree with the impression you expressed as you looked at the language of the Liturgy. (“These words are quite strong and to me it appears that the Orthodox do consider the Blessed Mother much higher than we do.”) Someone else can say how many times the Theotokos is addressed in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s 100 or more. I think the impression you and I as Latins get (in the absence of catechesis) and the theology expressed are probably not the same thing.

I understand that the Orthodox would rather refer to many teachings as mysteries of the faith and that the Catholic Church has felt the need to define the mysteries of faith…
…To me the Catholic Church is so straight up about Her doctrines and dogmas, altough I don’t articulate them well I understand them.

I think you are in part expressing here a misconception. Some of the difference is in the mind of the churches, but also some is the result of cultural and historic differences in the problems that faced “Rome” and the problems that faced “Constantinople”. (I’m not sure really those two things are different – which came first, the chicken or the egg, the mindset or the cultural/historical differences ) I think these interviews with Fr. Abbot Nicholas, Abbot of Holy Resurrection Romanian Catholic Monastery in Placentia, CA talking about Eastern Catholic Theology are very helpful. In Part 2 around minute 5 Catherine Alexander asks Father about the Immaculate Conception question. I strongly encourage you to* listen to all of Part 1 first*, and to listen to all of Part 2, where he addresses some fundamentals about the different theologies, the relationship of Eastern Churches to Rome on topics like this, doctrines and dogma- the ECCs can’t “say the dogmas are heretical’, but can say that "these ways of expressing that truth are foreign to us[ECs]…outside their theological patrimony” as Fr. Nicholas repeatedly phrases it. (He addresses that he is in the western part of the ECCs and mentions the more oriental churches, but he is mainly speaking from the Byzantine Romanian tradition, albeit he’s Australian ) I think all of Catherine’s interviews on that site with the HRM monks are very helpful. I keep returning to them periodically. I hope you looked at some of the video I suggested before about Eastern Catholic Churches which also can be a very helpful introduction.

You’re comparing Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church but again, the Roman Catholic Church is not the whole of the Catholic Church, and I think you do not understand the place of these teachings in the rest of the Catholic Church. Catherine Alexander’s interviews of the monks, and the Eastern Christian Media videos are intended as basic introductions. The debates interspersed here in this thread are at at different level. I suggest that listening to Father Nicholas could be really helpful to you for understanding further the concerns you have brought up here and some of the responses given.

God Bless-
Marylouise

‘… the Holy Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary has been exalted above all intellectual creation in the heavens and here on earth. She is “more honored than the Cherubim and incomparably more glorious than the Seraphim,” the two high and holy ranks of the angelic world who serve at the throne of God. How can we not praise and magnify her since she is the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ Who is the Light and the Life of all creation?’ -Metropolitan Isaiah of Denver

 

[Mickey]

You must really love debating me and getting refuted.

Yes. I live to “get refuted” by you Markudm.

Thank you for clarifying your stance. You do not think the “merits of Christ” clause is necessary for your own belief in the IC doctrine. So you would accept the doctrine with certain subtractions from the definition. Fair enough.

 

[Peter_J]

Hello Peter,

Yes I understand the belief in the Immaculate Conception, but I also believe that the Orthodox do believe as we do.

Alright, I’m willing to take on faith that you understand the dogma. In any case I’m more interested in responding to the other part of your statement.

Having the correct doctrine isn’t the only important thing. Attitude also matters: in particular a presumptuous attitude, even if accompanied by the right doctrine, is likely to just drive people further away. (You might stop for a moment and consider how you or I might react if we were in a conversation with a Lutheran friend on the subject of Sola Fide, and he/she said “Well the truth is that you RCs believe in Sola Fide already, you just haven’t admitted it.”) As you said in a later post: “We each believe what we believe and as I have said before I do not judge a person for their choices. But I surely can differ with their conclusions.”

 

[Peter_J]

Hi mlouise. I just want to respond to one of your statements:

You’re comparing Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church but again, the Roman Catholic Church is not the whole of the Catholic Church, and I think you do not understand the place of these teachings in the rest of the Catholic Church.

What you’re here calling “the Roman Catholic Church” should properly be called “the Latin Catholic Church”. (Not trying to create yet another argument about terminology, just trying to avoid future confusion.)

I note that Wikipedia speaks of “the Latin Church or Rite”, although that’s not really correct either, since the Latin Catholic Church has several different Rites (the Roman Rite, which is the dominant one, as well as the Ambrosian Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, etc).

 

[Peter_J]

Yes. I live to “get refuted” by you Markudm.

Alright … well, thank you for sharing.

 

[Mickey]

Alright … well, thank you for sharing.

You are very welcome Peter.

 

[Harpazo]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Andrew,

I will admit that I am completely out of my expertise in the area of Orthodox beliefs about Mary. And I am a bit confused by your comment "The Orthodox feel that it is not necessary to elevate the Mother of God higher than us. The reason we do not jive with certain Catholic beliefs is that they like to make her the “great exception” as opposed to the “great example.”

When I went to St. Luke the Evangelist Orothodox Church’s website, which appears to be connected to the Russian Orthodox Church and read their Liturgy, the Entrance Prayers were quite atonishing to me.

Following are the Entrance Prayers for St. John Chrysostom Liturgy:

Deacon: O blessed Theotokos, open the doors of compassion to us whose hope is in YOU, that we may not perish but be delivered from adversity through you, who are the SALVATION of the Christian people.

Then the clergy venerate an icon of the Theotokos:

Deem us worthy of mercy O Theotokos, Fountain of Tenderness. Look on us sinful men and reveal your POWER as always, for we have put our HOPE in YOU.

Hello Bernadette,

I have not ever heard that prayer at the beginning of Divine Liturgy in going to Orthodox Churches or Byzantine Catholic Churches. Do you think you could post the link from where you found the prayer? Forgive me if I am being obtuse, but I fail to see in those prayers (which are lovely BTW) how it points to Orthodox believing the same as the Immaculate Conception.

These words are quite strong and to me it appears that the Orthodox do consider the Blessed Mother much higher than we do. I know that in the Latin rite liturgy I have never heard any part saying that we consider Mary our salvation. I know that the Catholic Church has considered calling Mary the Co-Redemdrix (sp), meaning that she carried Jesus and from her flesh He received His flesh and she brought our Salvation who is Christ Jesus into the world to save all mankind. This might be exactly what is meant in the Orthodox prayers. I find the prayers lovely, and have no real problem with them if they are orthodox and mean that through the Incarnation our Salvation came.

I’ll have to echo what brother Michael said in the post after mine. He is much better with words than I am! I don’t know about the Co-Redemptrix thing. I know that there is a movement, but I think it would be dangerous and it should just remain theologoumenon. In the DL of St. John Chrysostom, the Theotokos is mentioned because we are remembering her, but we do not feel the need to elevate her with any new doctrines. From the Orthodox point of view, the Immaculate Conception separates her from the rest of humanity.

I am not familiar with our Easter Rite Churches so I can’t say anything about their liturgies, but find that from what I have read the Orthodox place Mary as high or even higher than the Catholic Church does. Of course their are saints who have written about Mary and held her in very high esteem, but those are private writings.

I know that in most Eastern liturgies, she is mentioned a few times. But I can say that we are very affectionate towards her and take great poetic liberty in our prayers in speaking about her. However, people do not see the poetic aspects and immediately think of it rationally. I know I did that at first.

As I said before I am not familiar with what the Orthodox believe so in all charity I would appreciate it if someone would explain to me how we are really do different in our teachings about Christ’s Mother Mary.

I understand that the Orthodox would rather refer to many teachings as mysteries of the faith and that the Catholic Church has felt the need to define the mysteries of faith, but I think that in the end there really is no difference whether our Church says Mary was Immaculate from conception on or if the Orthodox choose to just believe that she was Immaculate and not define when. If by Entrance Prayers, this is not part of the liturgy, it really is not the point, the point is that the Orthodox do set Mary above all others except of course the Trinity.

I know what your saying, but to the Catholic Church it is a rather big deal, with an anathema on anyone who denies the belief. Orthodox would not have the liberty to express themselves in that regard. That is the consequence of defining a dogma so rigidly as the Latins are wont to do.

I know that I do not possess all the great skills of debate that others of these boards do, so I will just read everyones’ answers if anyone chooses to post.

God Bless

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

I’m no master debater by any means. But, I don’t think it would serve the subject justice to debate. Just to share and compare brings us closer to understanding and greater mutual respect.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Peter_J]

I know that in most Eastern liturgies, she is mentioned a few times. But I can say that we are very affectionate towards her and take great poetic liberty in our prayers in speaking about her. However, people do not see the poetic aspects and immediately think of it rationally. I know I did that at first.

Speaking for myself, I know I’ve wondered about those “poetic liberties” on a number of occasions.

It makes me wonder: did the issue come up in the first millennium? Are there any records of Church Fathes speaking for or against poetic liberties, or at least warning people not to take them too literally?

 

[BernadetteM]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Bernadette,

I have not ever heard that prayer at the beginning of Divine Liturgy in going to Orthodox Churches or Byzantine Catholic Churches. Do you think you could post the link from where you found the prayer? Forgive me if I am being obtuse, but I fail to see in those prayers (which are lovely BTW) how it points to Orthodox believing the same as the Immaculate Conception.

I’ll have to echo what brother Michael said in the post after mine. He is much better with words than I am! I don’t know about the Co-Redemptrix thing. I know that there is a movement, but I think it would be dangerous and it should just remain theologoumenon. In the DL of St. John Chrysostom, the Theotokos is mentioned because we are remembering her, but we do not feel the need to elevate her with any new doctrines. From the Orthodox point of view, the Immaculate Conception separates her from the rest of humanity.

I know that in most Eastern liturgies, she is mentioned a few times. But I can say that we are very affectionate towards her and take great poetic liberty in our prayers in speaking about her. However, people do not see the poetic aspects and immediately think of it rationally. I know I did that at first.

I know what your saying, but to the Catholic Church it is a rather big deal, with an anathema on anyone who denies the belief. Orthodox would not have the liberty to express themselves in that regard. That is the consequence of defining a dogma so rigidly as the Latins are wont to do.

I’m no master debater by any means. But, I don’t think it would serve the subject justice to debate. Just to share and compare brings us closer to understanding and greater mutual respect.

In Christ,
Andrew

Hello Harpazo,

The site I went to is on Yahoo, Saint John Chrysostom Orthodox Church, Palos Hills, IL.

I am so unfamiliar with computers that I don’t know how to attach the site here, sorry.

In my main reference to how the Orthodox regard Mary compared to the Catholic view was in regards to a poster’s quote that "the Orthodox feel that it is not nessary to elevate the Mother of God higher than us. The reason we do not jive with certain Catholic belilefs is that they like to make her the “great exception” as opposed to the “great example.”

My response to that was after reading the above site. To my eyes while reading it I felt that the Orthodox also elevate her as much as Catholics do. That part had nothing to do with the Immaculate Conception.

I try to be careful when posting not to offend others and I do understand that I would not want anyone telling me what a Catholic believes if they do not understand our belief.

In regards to mindset, I need to reflect back when I was married to a 3rd generation Hungarian who spoke Hungarian so well that Hungarians thought he was born there. He learned it from his Grandmother. I have been to Hungary several times and have Hungarian friends and their concepts and thinking is very different than an American. So I can understand that there is a difference in how each of us understand not only issues related to religion, but life in general.

I am a convert myself and I think we converts sometimes are more apt to come to stronger conclusions about our faith than others, be it Catholic, protestant or Orthodox. In the end as long as a person belongs to the One Holy and Apostolic Church we are in His Church. I think some of my post was in response to some responses, not on this board per se but on an Anti Catholic board where some Orthodox were not acting as our brothers and sisters in Christ and lumped us with protestants. I was unaware at the time I posted but maybe I was trying to prove that we do have so much in common with the Orthodox, but I must remember that this forum is not the same and the people here are just defining their theology versus ours. I will read, I believe it was Peter’s suggestion what a priest said about the Immaculate Conception and how the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox believe and get a better understanding of their theology on Mary.

I have luked at other boards and still feel that CAF is the most civil of all. It has been a lesson for me not to read into words how I see there meaning. I just wish that responses could be more gentle and less harsh. People respond to gentleness much more and I did acknowledge that I was not familiar with the Orthodox mindset in my post.

Thank you for your respnse.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[BernadetteM]

Hrapozo,

It was a video that was suggested by Mlouise07 not Peter, sorry for the error.

Bernadette

 

[BernadetteM]

Alright, I’m willing to take on faith that you understand the dogma. In any case I’m more interested in responding to the other part of your statement.

Having the correct doctrine isn’t the only important thing. Attitude also matters: in particular a presumptuous attitude, even if accompanied by the right doctrine, is likely to just drive people further away. (You might stop for a moment and consider how you or I might react if we were in a conversation with a Lutheran friend on the subject of Sola Fide, and he/she said “Well the truth is that you RCs believe in Sola Fide already, you just haven’t admitted it.”) As you said in a later post: “We each believe what we believe and as I have said before I do not judge a person for their choices. But I surely can differ with their conclusions.”

Dear Peter,

Please see my response to Harpazo. I hope that explains some of what I posted. I will try to be more careful in assuming anything about another’s belief system, when reading just words, as words do carry different meanings to others.

I think that because this is a forum for religious conversation, that I incorrectly assumed that everyone would be more understanding when another misinterprets another’s belief. But as you said I have gotten upset when I have gone on anti catholic boards and have seen horrible untruths about the Catholic Church and these people were not making the statements out of ignorance, such as I will admit that some of my remarks were made out of ignorance of the Orthodox and our own Eastern Rite Catholic’s belilefs.

God Bless

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Peter_J]

I think some of my post was in response to some responses, not on this board per se but on an Anti Catholic board where some Orthodox were not acting as our brothers and sisters in Christ and lumped us with protestants.

Yes unfortunately that happens a lot: Orthodox lumping non-Orthodox Christians together, and Catholics lumping non-Catholic Christians together. (No doubt you heard the line “Catholics were the first Protestants”?)

What would really be interesting is if, say, the Methodists started lumping together all non-Methodist Christians.

I will read, I believe it was Peter’s suggestion what a priest said about the Immaculate Conception and how the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox believe and get a better understanding of their theology on Mary.

I wasn’t the one who made that suggestion, but I wish I was since it sounds like a very good idea.

 

[Mickey]

(No doubt you heard the line “Catholics were the first Protestants”?)

Interesting concept.

 

[Peter_J]

Interesting concept.

True, but I can’t really take credit for it.

 

[Alphonse]

I will add that the Greek and Russian Orthodox Church expresses for me, quite simply, the magnificence of Mary - she said yes to God.

When the Angel of the Lord, came to her she could have easily turned away in either , fear, and disbeleif, but she said yes.

Remember the Angelus, “Be it done unto me . . . .”

All of us from the apolositc tradtions, can, and should continue, our reverence for her, but realize in her that she was the first disciple.

We will never come even remotely close to understanding how she could, and did, but should hold this model of discipleship before us.

Hail Holy Queen.

 

[Peter_J]

I hope this isn’t too far off-topic, but with regard to Catholics saying “Orthodox are basically Protestants” and Orthodox saying “Catholics are basically Protestants” [or “the first Protestants”], I’d like to throw in a wee comment about Dr. Scott Hahn’s statements (I guess I just have Hahn-on-the-brain, due to the on-going thread about him ) …

Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

Further study led me to conclude that Orthodoxy was wonderful for its liturgy and tradition but stagnant in theology. In addition, I became convinced that it was mistaken in doctrine, having rejected certain teachings of Scripture and the Catholic Church, especially the filioque clause (and the son) that had been added to the Nicene Creed.

• Rome Sweet Home

Whether or not you agree with Hahn’s claims, it’s clear that he’s not just pulling out the old “Orthodox are basically Protestants” line. Rather, in certain bad ways the Orthodox are more Protestant-like than Catholics (the Orthodox are “hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms”) whereas in certain good ways Catholics are more Protestant-like than the Orthodox (the Orthodox are “stagnant in theology” and “[reject] the filioque clause (and the son) that had been added to the Nicene Creed”).

(Of course, there’s also the one positive statement about Orthodoxy, that it is “wonderful for its liturgy and tradition”. Kind of a strange choice of words, but positive nevertheless.)