Orthodox Archbishop meets SSPX abbot

[Hesychios]

Fr Ambrose:

Actually this does raise an interesting problem. The present trend with the last Pope seems to have been condemnation of war. However this did not prevent Roman Catholic soldiers from flying to Iraq. The line taken by the US bishops was contrary to the Pope’s. Only one Catholic bishop in the States,a Romanian, forbade Catholics to fight in Iraq under pain of mortal sin since he saw it, as the Pope did, as an unjust war.

So - who does decide for Catholics? Obviously not the Pope since his declaration that it was an unjust war in Iraq was ignored by the Catholic bishops and military of the US, the UK, even Italy.

An excellent observation.

BTW Bishop Botean really gained the respect of a lot of people with his courageous pronouncement. It should prick the conscience of American Catholics.

+T+
Michael

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Fr Ambrose:

Actually this does raise an interesting problem. The present trend with the last Pope seems to have been condemnation of war. However this did not prevent Roman Catholic soldiers from flying to Iraq. The line taken by the US bishops was contrary to the Pope’s. Only one Catholic bishop in the States,a Romanian, forbade Catholics to fight in Iraq under pain of mortal sin since he saw it, as the Pope did, as an unjust war.

So - who does decide for Catholics? Obviously not the Pope since his declaration that it was an unjust war in Iraq was ignored by the Catholic bishops and military of the US, the UK, even Italy.

---

Today (24 March) is the commemoration of St. Caimin of Lough Derg

I think you’re confusing John Paul II with his cardinals. Can you provide documentation of the pope himself explicitly calling the Iraq War unjust?

(The point is not that the war was or was not justified, I just don’t remember the pope ever coming out against this particular war as specifically unjust - in fact, I’ve always remembered a conspicuous absence of condemnation from John Paul II.)

 

[Kirane]

tilis:

Jesus also drove the money changers out of the Temple with a whip. IF, and this is a big “if”, Eastern Orthodox Christians were persecuting Catholics, it would be right and just to go to war against them.

And would it be right to excommunicate and deny salvation to those who wanted to follow the words of Jesus: “Blessed are the peacemakers” and “Love thy neighbor”?

 

[rlg94086]

It’s not really that interesting. Bishops are allowed to make such decisions. If Pope John Paul II decided that individual Catholics should be forbidden to fight, he certainly would have said so. If a Bishop then disobeyed, that would be more interesting.

God Bless,

Robert
Fr Ambrose:

Actually this does raise an interesting problem. The present trend with the last Pope seems to have been condemnation of war. However this did not prevent Roman Catholic soldiers from flying to Iraq. The line taken by the US bishops was contrary to the Pope’s. Only one Catholic bishop in the States,a Romanian, forbade Catholics to fight in Iraq under pain of mortal sin since he saw it, as the Pope did, as an unjust war.

So - who does decide for Catholics? Obviously not the Pope since his declaration that it was an unjust war in Iraq was ignored by the Catholic bishops and military of the US, the UK, even Italy.

---

Today (24 March) is the commemoration of St. Caimin of Lough Derg

 

[Kirane]

Andreas Hofer:

Can you provide documentation of the pope himself explicitly calling the Iraq War unjust?

(The point is not that the war was or was not justified, I just don’t remember the pope ever coming out against this particular war as specifically unjust - in fact, I’ve always remembered a conspicuous absence of condemnation from John Paul II.)

See:
cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html
and
aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=7585
and
comunione-liberazione.org/articoli/eng/1/nowar.html
and
catholicpeacefellowship.org/nextpage.asp?m=2033
and
rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2006/03/paleoconservati_1.html
and
rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2006/03/paleoconservati.html

 

[Orthodoc]

Kirane:

On 3 March 2006, Archbishop Auhustyn (Markevych) of Lvov and Halych received Fr. Michael Mary (Sim), superior of SSPX Golgotha Monastery in Scotland. see:
orthodoxy.org.ua/uk/node/1037
or
orthodoxy.org.ua/ru/node/1037

You can find an interesting discussion regarding this on the ‘Byzantine (Catholic) Forum’. Interesting are the post by one of the priest from the Monastery on his visit.

If you read the entire series you will see that there are apparently problems with this group and the UGCC. They seem to be using the same type of tactics against the UGCC that the UGCC uses against the Orthodox Catholic. An interesting read -

byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002580#000011

Orthodoc

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Kirane:

See:
cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html
and
aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=7585
and
comunione-liberazione.org/articoli/eng/1/nowar.html
and
catholicpeacefellowship.org/nextpage.asp?m=2033
and
rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2006/03/paleoconservati_1.html
and
rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2006/03/paleoconservati.html

The only one of those sources to quote the pope referring to the war as an “unjust war” is that paragon of integrity Al-Jazeera, and even that is only an assertion without citation that a letter carried by Cdl. Laghi referred to the war as such. This letter was not even mentioned in the Catholic Worker account of HE’s visit.

The whole reason I asked for quotes from Pope John Paul II is that all his direct quotes ever do is express a hope that war can be averted, a wish for peace, and a conviction that peace is the only path to justice. What they never say, like so many of his cardinals openly and often claimed, is that “The war in Iraq is an unjust war.” Notice, however, that this lack of explicit reference to the war as unjust did not stop lots of reporters and commentators from telling us about how the pope clearly and consistently condemned the war as unjust. Now, I don’t really doubt that HH was against the war, but I also think he made it a point to not explicitly condemn it when he could not, as His Grace Bp. Botean tried to do, make a judgment binding on the consciences of the relevant world leaders. It’s fair to say that John Paul II opposed war. That was entirely clear. I don’t think it’s fair to say he condemned that war as unjust, especially since the only one of your group of supposed sources was a bit of hearsay from a disreputable news outlet.

 

[rlg94086]

Well said.

And, this thread is way off topic , which I have contributed to.

Any interesting conclusions about the meeting between the Archbishop and the SSPX abbot?
Andreas Hofer:

The only one of those sources to quote the pope referring to the war as an “unjust war” is that paragon of integrity Al-Jazeera, and even that is only an assertion without citation that a letter carried by Cdl. Laghi referred to the war as such. This letter was not even mentioned in the Catholic Worker account of HE’s visit.

The whole reason I asked for quotes from Pope John Paul II is that all his direct quotes ever do is express a hope that war can be averted, a wish for peace, and a conviction that peace is the only path to justice. What they never say, like so many of his cardinals openly and often claimed, is that “The war in Iraq is an unjust war.” Notice, however, that this lack of explicit reference to the war as unjust did not stop lots of reporters and commentators from telling us about how the pope clearly and consistently condemned the war as unjust. Now, I don’t really doubt that HH was against the war, but I also think he made it a point to not explicitly condemn it when he could not, as His Grace Bp. Botean tried to do, make a judgment binding on the consciences of the relevant world leaders. It’s fair to say that John Paul II opposed war. That was entirely clear. I don’t think it’s fair to say he condemned that war as unjust, especially since the only one of your group of supposed sources was a bit of hearsay from a disreputable news outlet.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Fr Ambrose:

Actually this does raise an interesting problem. The present trend with the last Pope seems to have been condemnation of war. However this did not prevent Roman Catholic soldiers from flying to Iraq. The line taken by the US bishops was contrary to the Pope’s. Only one Catholic bishop in the States,a Romanian, forbade Catholics to fight in Iraq under pain of mortal sin since he saw it, as the Pope did, as an unjust war.

So - who does decide for Catholics? Obviously not the Pope since his declaration that it was an unjust war in Iraq was ignored by the Catholic bishops and military of the US, the UK, even Italy.

I would hope the Pope was careful in the words he chose to use describing his thoughts. The way this post is written has stuff I dont think fairly represents the situation. For example “Roman Catholic Soldiers flying to Iraq”, there is no Roman Catholic armed forces, they were men of this nation who enlisted and their religion happened to be Catholic. The Pope wouldnt put american catholics in such a bind as to threaten them with mortal sin if they were to obey their country or face courtmartial.
And its not like there arent EO in the army, is it open season for them if their respective bishop doesnt say something?

 

[tilis]

Kirane:

And would it be right to excommunicate and deny salvation to those who wanted to follow the words of Jesus: “Blessed are the peacemakers” and “Love thy neighbor”?

People were not denying Christ’s words because war is always seen as a last resort and to be a peace maker is betters. But when peacful means prove entirely unfruitful, we must resort to fighting for what is right. Besides, it is also important to obey the following words of Christ as well: “He said to them, 'But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.” (Luke 22:36). You see our Lord was not a pacifist. Some times it is time to take up the sword. If one does not when it is necessary, such a person is a coward and does not live the virtue of courage. Thus, it would be acceptable the Pope to excomunicate those who would not courageously defend his brothers in Christ when we are called upon to do so.

 

[tilis]

“For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: atime to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; A TIME TO KILL, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain form embracing; a time ot seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love and a time to hate; A TIME FOR WAR, and a time for peace.” (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8)

 

[Orthodoc]

rlg94086:

Well said.

And, this thread is way off topic , which I have contributed to.

**Any interesting conclusions about the meeting between the Archbishop and the SSPX abbot?/**QUOTE]

Did you read the comments the SSPX abbot himself posted on the website I gave in my last post? Seems it was not a scheduled meeting but a ‘spare of the moment’ thing arranged when they went to an Orthodox book store for copies of Orthodox Services in Slavonic to use against both the Orthodox Catholic Church and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church as well. Their contempt for the the Orthodox Church is seconded by their contempt for the UGCC which they consider modernist. And they seem to be causing all sorts of problems for both churches in the Ukraine.

Orthodoc

They are a perfect example of people who will take for themselves all the beauty that is within Holy Orthodoxy and then insult and turn their backs on it.

The posts by this SSPX abbot even shocked the Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholics who post in the site!

Orthodoc

 

[Freeway4321]

You’re reading way to much into this Abbots meeting and whatever sparked it. That’s like saying all the priests who were pedophiles somehow shows the official stance of the Catholic church.

Let’s learn a little more about the SSPX before one makes such rash judgements. I’ve provided what I know, and i’ve studied the SSPX and there situation for sometime now. I’m sure those who belong to the, one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils (or 8 or 9 depending on who you read or talk to) know what it’s like to be pro-something, no?

 

[Orthodoc]

Freeway4321:

You’re reading way to much into this Abbots meeting and whatever sparked it. That’s like saying all the priests who were pedophiles somehow shows the official stance of the Catholic church.

Let’s learn a little more about the SSPX before one makes such rash judgements. I’ve provided what I know, and i’ve studied the SSPX and there situation for sometime now. I’m sure those who belong to the, one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils (or 8 or 9 depending on who you read or talk to) know what it’s like to be pro-something, no?

What I’m commenting on are words regarding the meeting that Abbot Micheal Mary himself wrote and comments made by Ukrainian Catholics in the Byzantine Forum regarding the problems these people are causing within the Greek Catholic Church within the Ukraine.

Read the five pages of posts between the abbot and others.

Orthodoc

 

[Freeway4321]

Orthodoc:

What I’m commenting on are words regarding the meeting that Abbot Micheal Mary himself wrote and comments made by Ukrainian Catholics in the Byzantine Forum regarding the problems these people are causing within the Greek Catholic Church within the Ukraine.

Read the five pages of posts between the abbot and others.

Orthodoc

I wish I could read it! I’ve tried Mozilla & Internet Explorer, and yet it refuses to load for me.

I’m almost positive that the name “Fr. Vasyl Kovpak” came up on the Byzcath forum… ?

 

[Kirane]

Orthodoc:

Their contempt for the the Orthodox Church is seconded by their contempt for the UGCC which they consider modernist. And they seem to be causing all sorts of problems for both churches in the Ukraine.

This was sad. I am sorry about it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Andreas Hofer:

I’m not trying to open a can of worms, but it doesn’t take any amount of ill-will for a Catholic to consider the Orthodox heretics. A heretic is, by definition, a baptized person who rejects an article that must be held with divine and Catholic faith.

By that reckoning, the whole CC is materially in error, since the Pope seems to regard both the RC canon of the OT and the Eastern canon of the OT as equally infallibly valid - even though they do not contain the same books.​

If both are correct, both must be equally dubious, since it is impossible for two canons to be equally valid at one and the same time. It is impossible to come up with a more incoherent and inconsistent theological judgement than to say both are equally infallibly correct. ##

Since it’s been defined in ecumenical council, papal infallibility falls under that heading, so anyone who rejects it is a heretic, be it material or formal.

Vatican I is, it can be argued, not really ecumenical, though - it’s a council of the Latin Church at which prelates of non-Latin Churches in union with Rome were present. It is also doubtful whether Trent was really ecumenical - as was pointed out at the time.​

Only by Latin ecclesiology is Vatican I valid - the trouble with that ecclesiology, is that the ecclesiology of Vatican I was one which regarded the Romanitas of the Church as all but a mark of the Church; what is certain, is that there was a straight equation between “The Church” & Rome and the Churches in union with Rome; so that all other Churches were not Churches at all. That this understanding of the Church has changed, merely makes the Church’s self-understanding incoherent - it’s as though the CC had undergone a change of identity.

The CC can certainly claim that Vatican II’s ecclesiology was in some way latent in that of Vatican I - but that is all it would be: a claim. And claims are not automatically validated by being made. Unless claims of supposed continuity with Vatican I can be examined, and, if need be, denied, there is no way that such claims will ever be more than self-serving propaganda. ##

Heretic isn’t a word that gets thrown around in this forum, which I think is good because of its loaded perjorative connotations, but when you get down to brass tacks it still applies. I like to think I have a great deal of respect for Orthodoxy, but that wouldn’t come through too well if the only test used were “Is it heresy to deny papal infallibility?”

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

wannabee:

Going back to the original post

Fr Michael Mary the Superior of Golgotha Monastery on Papa Stour has posted on Byzcath about this meeting

I’m sure you would be very welcome to read his post

byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002580;p=1

This thread has now been closed which I think is a pity because in the 4 or 5 posts which the Superior of the Transalpine Redemptorists posted he offered a lot of information about his approach to quite a number of interesting topics. But it is still worth a read for the sake of the posts which are there.

byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002580;p=1

---

Today (26th March) is the commemoration of Saint Macartan of Clogher
and the 1500th anniversary of the founding of the diocese of Clogher
See groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints/message/2247

 

[Freeway4321]

Fr Ambrose:

This thread has now been closed which I think is a pity because in the 4 or 5 posts which the Superior of the Transalpine Redemptorists posted he offered a lot of information about his approach to quite a number of interesting topics. But it is still worth a read for the sake of the posts which are there.
byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002580;p=1

Do you mind posting those messages for those of us who can’t get on the site?

 

[Orthodoc]

Freeway4321:

Do you mind posting those messages for those of us who can’t get on the site?

Hope I am not breaking any rules by compling. If so, please let me know and I will cease.

Orthodoc

=========Fr. Michael Mary, C.SS.R.
Junior Member
Member # 2887

byzcath.org/bboard/icons/icon1.gif posteddocument.write(timestamp(new Date(2006,2,22,12,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); 03-22-2006 12:57 PM03-22-2006 12:57 PM byzcath.org/bboard/profile.gif byzcath.org/bboard/homepage.gif byzcath.org/bboard/priv_message.gif byzcath.org/bboard/edit_ubb6.gif I am a traditional priest and celebrate both the Byzantine Divine Liturgy in Old Church Slavonic and the Tridentine Mass in Latin. I am the superior of our little monastery on the island of Papa Stronsay in Scotland.

I have read with wonder some of the comments referring to my recent visit to Lviv where I met the Russian Orthodox Archbishop. I hope this gives some clarification and I would welcome any constructive dialogue.
Here is my statement:
During my recent visit to Lviv I met the Russian Orthodox Archbishop. This was subsequently reported on the Internet as ‘dialogue.’ Since there has been some postings about this I thought that I should tell anybody who is interested about the meeting.
It was in order to get some Old Slavonic copies of the Psalms that we visited the Russian Orthodox bookshop in Lviv. Since Vatican II is is now difficult to get copies of anything in Church Slavonic. The Russian Orthodox have these books and they are very handy; so we went to buy them. Seeing that we were foreigners the woman in the bookshop wanted us to meet the bishop. She insisted that it would only take a minute and that the bishop would like to meet us. We agreed. The bookshop is very small, really a kiosk, and the church and bishop’s office are close by. We were taken up the stairs and into the bishop’s antechamber. We first met an Orthodox priest who acted as a secretary.
He wanted to know who we were. It is the second time I had been in that room.
The first time was a couple of years ago to visit a nun whom we knew. She had been a Catholic nun in Ukraine but because of Vatican II and the confusion of Ecumenism she felt it was possible to leave the Catholic convent and join an Orthodox one; this is the sin of apostasy. She is a very intelligent person and has written several books etc. I wanted to visit her to see if she had anyone at all who was keeping contact with her since she committed her apostasy.

So I said to the priest on this occasion that we knew this particular nun. He in turn got her to come and visit us. She was slightly hostile at first because she had received a letter from us inviting her to return to the Catholic Church.

We talked together with the priest and nun for some time. They wanted
to know how we lived here on Papa Stronsay and what our ideas were. Then they offered us a cup of tea and cakes. Our Ukrainian brother explained that we couldn’t have anything to eat because we were fasting as it was our Lent. That caused alarm. ‘What do Catholics fast?’ The nun explained that Catholics do not fast. (That was perhaps her idea of Catholics.) When they heard that we fasted they wanted to know how we fasted and what we eat; being bi-ritual we follow the Byzantine fasting which was quite a shock to them. Here we see that the Vatican II discipline gives scandal not only to Traditional Catholics but also to the schismatics. This is a cause of Oriental Catholics deciding to join the schismatic Orthodox.