Orthodox Archbishop meets SSPX abbot

[Orthodoc]

contd.

Then the bishop came.

We went through double doors into his office and sat down. He also wanted to know what we believe, how we live, what we follow. We told him we believe that the Russian Orthodox should be converted to the Catholic Church as was the policy of the pre Vatican II Church and the practise of Bishop Charnetsky. He listened quietly. He slightly peaked later when I told him that we did not agree with the Vatican giving the icon of Our Lady of Kazan to the Patriarch of Moscow; [that was when he stood up and waved his arms a bit and said it belonged to them and why should the Vatican not give back what was not theirs etc…]. We let that pass; he knew what we thought. Then he concluded that we Traditional Catholics had more in common with them than that Vatican does. He talked about only believing the Pope to be first among equals and proceeded to wind the conversation up giving us each the gift of a bar of Lviv’s famous chocolate. He then wanted to have a photo taken with us. As we waited for the camera it was explained that the bishop’s medals -those displayed and hanging in rows on the right side of the Wall-rug (over 20 of them) were awareded to him by his Church; and those arranged on the left side (another20 or so) were his civil awards. Then we were shown the photo of the bishop piloting a jet during the time that he was doing his Military Service and he told us that that he was a parachutist. Here our Brother Louis Marie replied that he too had been a parachutistist when he did his French Military service. Then to everyone’s amazement the bishop suddenly seized him in a Russian bear hug exclaiming in a loud voice: Only parachutists know what it is to be alive!’ [That must be a comment on how often Russian parachutes open!] Then he told a Russian parachutist’s joke about the parachutist asking his commander what happens when falling if the second parachute doesn’t open; to which the commander said, with an optimistic tone, that he would have the joy of free falling for the rest of his life! Br Louis had another in the French version about being told to keep his arm up in the air to save his watch. The atmosphere had changed quite suddenly he was very friendly. Then the
priest arrived back with the camera and the photo was taken and we were given each a packet of paper icons. When we came out through the bishop’s double doors the nun nodded as we left the ante-room for the corridor and thence to the street and the snow. That is the sum of it:
A visit to a bookshop for a few Psalm books in Old Church Slavonic. We met the Russian Orthodox Archbishop of Lviv and we told him what all Catholic priests would have told him before Vatican II. He knew our position and our intention for his soul and the souls of all those who followed him. He had heard a different story in Moscow the week earlier when a Vatican delegation went to wish the Patriarch of Moscow a happy Name day without telling him that they wanted the Russians to convert to the Catholic Church. As for us we continue to pray that the Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph over Russia converting her to the One True Church.
Fr Michael Mary, C.SS.R. Posts: 10 | From: Golgotha Monastery Island, Papa Stronsay | Registered: Mar 2006 | IP: Logged | byzcath.org/bboard/reportpost.gif
Member
Member # 873

byzcath.org/bboard/icons/icon1.gif posteddocument.write(timestamp(new Date(2006,2,22,13,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); 03-22-2006 01:04 PM03-22-2006 01:04 PM byzcath.org/bboard/profile.gif byzcath.org/bboard/edit_ubb6.gif

 

[Orthodoc]

03:20 PM byzcath.org/bboard/profile.gif byzcath.org/bboard/homepage.gif byzcath.org/bboard/priv_message.gif byzcath.org/bboard/edit_ubb6.gif Dearest in Christ Orthodox Catholic and others who have responded to my posting,

I do accept and celebrate the pure rite of the Divine Liturgy and follow the (Russian) typikon. Our Oriental monks are Ukrainian and Russian Byzantine Rite and a monk from the Syriac rite.

The ‘latinised’ Ruthenian Divine Liturgy is venerable and valid but I have said it only a few times in Ukraine for a convent of Sisters.

‘Schismatic’ is a word the Church has used for the Orthodox more often than not since the Great Schism; (presently many fellow Catholics use it on us traditional Catholics; its use does not have to be charged with emotion; but peacefully we believe it is improperly employed in our regard because we do not have a parallel hierarchy or Church structure in opposition to the one appointed by the Holy Father: which is exactly the case of the Orthodox.

Schism and schismatic have precise meanings and it is important to know what they mean.

I do love the Russian people and the Russians who are not in union with the Church; our meeting in Lviv was precisely a meeting of charity and the Archbishop thought enough about it to make a press release. He in turn considers us as schismatic from the Orthodox faith. And we both know where we stand; and it is clear and good and we see no problems there. I understand his point of view. But he did say that he thought they was more in common with us (traditional Catholics) than with the post Vatican II ecumenist Catholics. …Now what does that mean? What does that say about the success of ‘ecumenism’ as against plain talking?

You have observed that I probably make errors about our Byzantine rite and tradition. For my part, I humbly invite you to tell us if you are without error in this Great Fast and truly fasting according to the Typikon …or some ‘Latinised’, comfortable version of it?..that gives scandal to the ‘real’ Orthodox in non Western places like Ukraine. You know, are you doing the cold and dry food once a day in the afternoon, preferably evening and oil only on Sat and Sundays? Is that what you’re doing? And is it done for ‘spacenii doosh nashikh’?

I do not take offence at what you have said of me although I think that you would not dare go as far with anyone who is Orthodox. Please take no offence at my words given with honesty and charity in Christ.

I will remember you well in my poor prayers.
Devotedly,
Fr Michael Mary, C.SS.R.

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Orthodoc

 

[Orthodoc]

06:42 AM byzcath.org/bboard/profile.gif byzcath.org/bboard/homepage.gif byzcath.org/bboard/priv_message.gif byzcath.org/bboard/edit_ubb6.gif Dearest in Christ UC
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Our work is thankless: ‘we are reviled, and we bless … we are made the refuse of this world, the offscouring of all even until now.’ (1 Cor IV:12) So, if needs be, let the invective flow: Rather than pour it on anyone else, help yourself to me.

I am surprised that you took offence by my asking about the Fasting Typikon. I was not being sarcastic and I asked the question humbly I wanted to know if my adversaries were truly interested in the one only thing: the salvation of his immortal soul; living the faith is the way to that and fasting is a touchstone to seriousness: putting your money where your mouth is…so to speak. It is truly a real issue. In my first posting I mentioned a nun who left the Catholic Church and became Orthodox because of her extreme disappointment with the UGCC. She never believed that either Latin or Greek Catholics really fasted. ‘Only symbolical!’ as another Oriental nun said to me. With this in mind I asked the hard question; no offence intended.

You may say that she is only one person, but in a way she is not. She represents many deeply Oriental Christian. She really fasts; and all the Orthodox that you meet in Ukraine and Russia really know how to fast. She is deeply Oriental. She was a noted orientalist of the UGCC before she went to Orthodoxy under the Moscow Patriarchate (and she does not want to be called Catholic now). She knows her Ukrainian history; she lived through attempts at the Russification of her beloved land. It was from her that the UGCC received the composition of the Akafist to Blessed Nicholas and she is the grand-niece of Blessed Martyr-Bishop Vasil. She has the heritage of a martyr in her blood; and unable to cope with the ongoing scandals she took what seemed to her to be the right option: we could say more,but enough. A tragic loss for her and for the UGCC. Posts: 10 | From: Golgotha Monastery Island, Papa Stronsay | Registered: Mar 2006 | IP: Logged | byzcath.org/bboard/reportpost.gif ==============

Orthodoc

 

[Orthodoc]

12:08 PM byzcath.org/bboard/profile.gif byzcath.org/bboard/homepage.gif byzcath.org/bboard/priv_message.gif byzcath.org/bboard/edit_ubb6.gif Dearest in Christ Diak
You speak under a false name I speak and you know who I am and where I live and what I stand for.
In haste a reply to your letter asking for some answers:

1. Training of priests: We use the same justification as would be given for the lack of Greek Doctors in the training of Fr Delaere. He first called Ukrainians ‘Russians’ and then began to learn. What of the ‘underground training’ of present Archbishop of Lviv Ihor Vosniak… how many Greek Doctors etc? Or is he and were they ‘distorting, propagandizing’ as you would have it?

2 Excommunication form the Catholic Church: According to the head of Ecclesia Dei, Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos the traditional Catholics and members of the SSPX are NOT excommunicated.

The supposed excommunication of the four bishops was for the same thing that Patriarch Josyf did: consecrate bishops. If an SSPX bishop should be excommunicated for being consecrated without the Papal Mandate so too should H.B. Husar who was consecrated against the will of Pope Paul VI.

So if I’m excommunicated you should be excommunicated if you are a member of the UGCC.

1. Patriarch Joseyf died in Rome: Yes, I concelebrated the Divine Liturgy at his funeral.
2. Church books: Of course we use the Old Church Slavonic liturgical books from Rome! But they haven’t produced a pocket sized psalm book that is 3 inches by 4 inches, they are very handy to write in for study purposes.
3. Fr Kathrein: Surely he is still on the old web site. He did not found the original house of Transalpine Redemptorists and he never lived with us. But he was a saintly Redemptorist all the same.
   I hope this answers your questions.

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Orthodoc]

 

[Orthodoc]

Having shared some of the discussion with Monk Nicodemus he has asked me to post his thoughts on this discussion. He is an Oriental Monk. Here is his statement:

So many so-called “Byzantine Catholics” live today with a mentality which is one step away from, if not actual, apostasy. (Perhaps this is why the use of the term apostate and schismatic are so odious to them?) They, without any substantial research, feel themselves empowered to write all kinds of fantasies. But, there is only one Catholic Faith. There are not various forms of the Faith. No Byzantine Rite faith and Latin Rite faith. There is not “what you or I think” about the Faith. There is One Faith. If you look at history you will find that what those such as Fr Michael believe is in fact what Catholics believed 60, 80, 100, 1000 and 2000 years ago. It is one consistent Faith. It does not change. Because modernism and ecumenism have so perverted the minds of even the well-informed they feel that they are empowered to give out whatever opinion they like. That is not the Catholic Faith. Don’t take my word for it—read some objective Catholic source from 100 years ago.

For the good soul who wrote about how a Redemptorist such as Fr Michael should think twice about speaking before dishonouring his forefathers in the Congregation: Dear soul, you may do well to study the history of the Oriental Redemptorist Congregation in which you will see the term “schismatic” used time and again. The martyrs themselves would have used it. BUT it is another question as to whether one is obliged to be rude in the face of somebody who is Orthodox and call them all kinds of rude names. That is called having good manners.

In the same way, somebody who has AIDS would be spoken about as having AIDS. That referral is objective. The person has AIDS. One’s statement does not mean to condemn the person for how they contracted the disease. In this regard they may be morally blameless or blameworthy. I do not have to go up to the person and say: “Yes, ‘AIDS-nik’, how can I help you?” Anybody with a bit of common sense can understand this and this is what Bishop Velychkovsky was speaking about is his article about working for re-union of the “Orthodox”.

It is the same with the word SCHISM or APOSTACY. I do not need to insult somebody every time I address them or speak about them but I am still allowed, in fact I am obliged in some cases, to use the term in order to be clear. Bishop Velychkovsky did so too, see below. In the same way if I kept on referring to my AIDS sufferer as simply a “patient” nobody would be able to help or even have a normal conversation with the man about his health for lack of knowledge. Say I am the man’s doctor. I tell him that he is suffering from a very serious illness but I refrain from naming it in order not to offend. What use is that? I am bound at least once to tell him plainly that he has AIDS. Now all this is the same with religion. If I am a Catholic, our Religion believes, and has believed from time immemorial that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. If I am speaking about religion with somebody and I at least once do not clearly tell that person, if he is “Orthodox” that he is factually in a schismatic organization, what is the use of that? He is no more aware of the tenants of my Faith than he was to start with. Reality is reality. We don’t have to wrap everybody in cotton wool. That does not mean we have to insult them and of course you could also tell them that they are “disunited” which perhaps through circumstances they are. But schismatic only has negative connotations from firstly what it is, that is to say a sin and thus obviously negative, and secondly being flung around by people with no charity or missionary zeal at all. It is only the negative assertion of the positive “disunited”. If you are dealing with simple people of good will who are wanting to be Catholics anyway you do not have to bombard them with the negative term, but in today’s world of confusion, and institutionalized confusion, i.e. Vatican II, we need to be clear of the terms. Positive terms too can be insulting. I grew up in South Africa where black people were referred to as “non-whites”. Which is worse, being called “black” or being called “non-white”? Let us also remember that Metropolitan Andrew also wrote, among many other things, that we should not call the Orthodox “Orthodox” because they were not orthodox. How many of you have read that one?

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Orthodoc

 

[Freeway4321]

Orthodoc:

Hope I am not breaking any rules by compling. If so, please let me know and I will cease.

Oh yeah… I think Joseph said something about posting messages from the Byzcath forum - I better read these before he get’s on!

Thank you, either way.

 

[Freeway4321]

“I understand his point of view. But he did say that he thought they was more in common with us (traditional Catholics) than with the post Vatican II ecumenist Catholics…”

I’ve been saying this for sometime now… one day people will realize this.

“I do not take offence at what you have said of me although I think that you would not dare go as far with anyone who is Orthodox.”

Considering that I used to frequently read that board, I can only imagine what was said.Most EC’s or Roman Catholics for that matter will treat Traditionalist Catholics as second class Catholics, but Orthodox as if they were Roman Catholics. It’s a double standard that i’ve debated with many about. It saddens me to see what Roma and the many Bishops have created in the mind of contemporary Catholics who use “schism” to explain the SSPX situation.

 

[Orthodoc]

Freeway4321:

Oh yeah… I think Joseph said something about posting messages from the Byzcath forum - I better read these before he get’s on!

Thank you, either way.

If this is true then I apologize. I was only trying to comply with your request. And, Joseph has my permission to delete these posts if he see’s fit with an apology from me.

Orthodoc

 

[tilis]

gelsbern:

Their reasoning is that in their eyes Vatican II was called as a pastoral council, not an eccumenical council, therfore using that logic, they believe that Vatican II did not carry with it the infallibility as earlier councils did.

’
The Church does not view VII as dogmatic/infallible either

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

WanderAimlessly:

…

Not all who wander are lost.

**“All that is gold does not glitter, **

**not all those who wander are lost; **

**the old that is strong does not wither, **

**deep roots are not reached by the frost. **

**From the ashes a fire shall be woken, **

**a light from the shadows shall spring; **

**renenwed shall be blade that was broken, **

the crownless again shall be king.”

Tolkein

 

[gelsbern]

’
The Church does not view VII as dogmatic/infallible either

It must because the council of Trent DID carry with it the chrism of infallibility when it decreed the changes in the Mass. Pope Pius V simply carried out the orders of the council. IF Vatican II can override the council of Trent, then it must also be viewed with some form of infallibility in the Church.

But since this is the eastern thread, I don’t want to delve too deep into it here.

Besides, tomorrow April 2nd is my 1 year anniversary as a deacon, so I am not going to stir any pots this weekend.