Orthodox & Catholics: What Still Divides Us?

[JonNC]

1. papal infallibility
2. papal supremacy
3. Atonement views
4. Original Sin views
5. Leavened or Unleavened Bread
6. Filioque
7. Beards

Mickey, Andrew, Madaglan,

From an Orthodox POV, which of these are necessarily Church-dividing?
Maybe add to the list; indulgences and the Treasury of Merit, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, And the IC and Assumption of the Holy Theotokos.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, Andrew, Madaglan,

From an Orthodox POV, which of these are necessarily Church-dividing?
Maybe add to the list; indulgences and the Treasury of Merit, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, And the IC and Assumption of the Holy Theotokos.

Thanks,
Jon

In my opinion, (which is worthless), I think the top two are:

1. Papal infallibility/supremacy
2. Filioque

I think there is room for discussion with the other subjects. We already accept that the Holy Theotokos was bodily assumed into heaven–we call the feast “Dormition of the Holy Theotokos” because we believe that she reposed.

I would throw out the indulgences stuff.

 

[Hesychios]

Mickey, Andrew, Madaglan,

From an Orthodox POV, which of these are necessarily Church-dividing?
Maybe add to the list; indulgences and the Treasury of Merit, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, And the IC and Assumption of the Holy Theotokos.

Thanks,
Jon

I think that the treasury of merit is probably a medeival explanation/interpretation for a practice that was already in place in some areas.

It is too much like bankers logic.

The fact is, even if (for arguments sake) indulgences were/are an acceptable practice they would not need justification with such a theory.

 

[Madaglan]

Mickey, Andrew, Madaglan,

From an Orthodox POV, which of these are necessarily Church-dividing?
Maybe add to the list; indulgences and the Treasury of Merit, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, And the IC and Assumption of the Holy Theotokos.

Thanks,
Jon

Papal supremacy and the filioque are the major issues, but altogether (save perhaps the beard) these beliefs reflect a much different mindset and understanding of the Christian spiritual life that would keep the two distant. .

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Even if the Churches came to an agreement on all matters of the faith, they would not be in communion with one another without a sacramental act of reunification that could occur after a union Council.

And the only way that would occur is if both sides were to agree to fall into each other’s arms in true repentance and tears.

That isn’t going to happen without special Grace from God and especially not when all manner of theological arguments, petty or otherwise, takes up the time!

Alex

 

[Mickey]

Even if the Churches came to an agreement on all matters of the faith, they would not be in communion with one another without a sacramental act of reunification that could occur after a union Council.

And the only way that would occur is if both sides were to agree to fall into each other’s arms in true repentance and tears.

That isn’t going to happen without special Grace from God and especially not when all manner of theological arguments, petty or otherwise, takes up the time!

St Mark of Ephesus pray for us!

 

[JonNC]

Thanks, guys. I pray for that special grace from God - for all of us.

Jon

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Papacy
The Filioque

Anything else? IOW, if there was agreement between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church on those two issues, would anything else prevent re-unification?

What still divides the Orthodox and the Catholics?

Simple.

Pride.

 

[MrPip]

What still divides the Orthodox and the Catholics?

Simple.

Pride.

You got it!

By the way, if enough Catholics and enough Orthodox decided to just start partaking of each others’ sacraments, especially Holy Communion and Confession…we’d have a fait accompli. I’m not, however, going to hold my breath!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I can understand papal supremacy causing enormous tension and riffs and problems but how does the filioque keep orthodox and catholic christians so distant? I have just never seen the big deal…

Papal supremacy and the filioque are the major issues, but altogether (save perhaps the beard) these beliefs reflect a much different mindset and understanding of the Christian spiritual life that would keep the two distant. .

 

[Hesychios]

What still divides the Orthodox and the Catholics?

Simple.

Pride.

None of us are free of pride.

Every Pope, and every Patriarch who ever lived had pride, probably too much. You and I both, as well as everyone posting at CAF suffers from it.

Arius and Marcion (I am sure) were afflicted too, we are all only human after all.

But that doesn’t mean the theological problems are not more substantial. Even if we could set aside our pride (we can not), we have a moral and ethical obligation to proclaim Truth as we know it, as we have been taught, and sharing the Holy Eucharist is a sign of that …

… at least it is for me.

 

[MrPip]

None of us are free of pride.

Every Pope, and every Patriarch who ever lived had pride, probably too much. You and I both, as well as everyone posting at CAF suffers from it.

Arius and Marcion (I am sure) were afflicted too, we are all only human after all.

But that doesn’t mean the theological problems are not more substantial. Even if we could set aside our pride (we can not), we have a moral and ethical obligation to proclaim Truth as we know it, as we have been taught, and sharing the Holy Eucharist is a sign of that …

… at least it is for me.

Does that mean Catholics and Orthodox sharing the Holy Eucharist together? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[hazcompat]

Even if the Churches came to an agreement on all matters of the faith, they would not be in communion with one another without a sacramental act of reunification that could occur after a union Council.

And the only way that would occur is if both sides were to agree to fall into each other’s arms in true repentance and tears.

That isn’t going to happen without special Grace from God and especially not when all manner of theological arguments, petty or otherwise, takes up the time!

Alex

Come Holy Spirit!

peace

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Come Holy Spirit!

peace

This is the most intelligent thing I’ve ever come across when discussing East-West reunion.

More (Divine) Power to you!

Alex

 

[StevieD]

Oh brother. This is exactly what Andrew was talking about when he said these discussions disintegrate fast. Do you know how many websites there are that start with, “Why I am not Roman Catholic” ?

I do not think Scott wants this thread to turn into a “My Church is better than your Church” thread.

The linked site was written by someone who has done a great deal of excellent research and is a very good resource for Catholics (and the undecided). I didn’t expect you to like it. I certainly don’t like a lot of what I read on Orthodox forums but they are Orthodox forums and I don’t complain.

 

[Hesychios]

Does that mean Catholics and Orthodox sharing the Holy Eucharist together? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Sharing the eucharist is only possible once we are unified in through a common faith.

We (Orthodox and Roman Catholics) are not there yet, so sharing the eucharist would be premature for us.

 

[Nicea325]

Even if the Churches came to an agreement on all matters of the faith, they would not be in communion with one another without a sacramental act of reunification that could occur after a union Council.

And the only way that would occur is if both sides were to agree to fall into each other’s arms in true repentance and tears.

That isn’t going to happen without special Grace from God and especially not when all manner of theological arguments, petty or otherwise, takes up the time!

Alex

The first step would be to conduct an ecumenical council.

 

[hazcompat]

peace

 

[hazcompat]

saint-mike.org/library/church_councils/vatican_ii/unitatis_redintegratio.html

This is the sacred mystery of the unity of the Church, in Christ and through Christ, the Holy Spirit energizing its various functions. It is a mystery that finds its highest exemplar and source in the unity of the Persons of the Trinity: the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit, one God.

Per Ipsum

peace

 

[Alexander_Roman]

St Mark of Ephesus pray for us!

According to Fr. John Meyendorff, St Mark came to Florence as a unionist who, however, insisted that the removal of the Filioque is the “sine qua non” of church unity.

He believed that God would heal the schism but only when the united Church would return to the original Creed.

So, yes, St Mark of Ephesus would be a patron of East-West unity.

Alex