Orthodox Church? Eastern Orthodox Church? Which is it?

[2ndGen]

The Orthodox Church has changed since the beginning of Christianity–just not in beliefs. Deification is definitely a change!

 

[Madaglan]

Well, we’re not the ones denying theological evolution and ongoing revelation.

According to Roman Catholic belief, public revelation has ended with the death of the last Apostle.

Besides, that’s another topic. The topic here is which is the name of the Christian Church(s) that left The Catholic Church in the 11th century.

The Latin Church

Is there one Church that represents all of those Churches?

They’re Sister Churches. The Ecumenical Patriarch has a seat of honor in the Church and is often a spokesman for the Orthodox Church in relations with other churches.

An are all the new Churches considered “original” Churches too?

Even though they didn’t exist back then?

The Churches are unified in the faith with Churches first founded by the Apostles.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by 2ndGen:

Well, didn’t they used to believe that they were “Catholics” once? That’s a “change” in beliefs, isn’t it?

Were they ever subject to Rome?

If they were, and they stopped being subject to Rome, then isn’t “that” changing their belief in Rome as to what The Church Fathers referred to as the authority of Christianity?

Orthodox Christians call themselves Catholic today. I consider myself Catholic.

One needs to be careful in what exactly the Church Fathers had to say about Rome. Did they declare that the bishop of Rome had authority over the other bishops? Church patriarchs in the East have certain authoritative roles, yet they themselves have equal authority with their fellow bishops.

From the Roman Catholic perspective, there is very little to separate the Roman Catholic Church from celebrating a common Eucharist with the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by 2ndGen:

Is that historically provable?

Can you direct me to a pre-11th century Church Document that proves that?

Is the Resurrection itself historically provable?

St. Vincent de Lerins writes that orthodoxy is that which has been believed everywhere, always and by everyone.

 

[2ndGen]

According to Roman Catholic belief, public revelation has ended with the death of the last Apostle.

 

[2ndGen]

Is the Resurrection itself historically provable?

St. Vincent de Lerins writes that orthodoxy is that which has been believed everywhere, always and by everyone.

I guess you’re answer then is “no”…you “cannot” prove “The Eastern Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Church of Christ, the Church of the Apostles.”

It’s provable that The Catholic Church is The Church of Christ.

Proving which Church is The Church is “not” akin to proving something supernatural such as The Ressurection. There’s nothing supernatural about a visisble Church with a history that can either be historically confirmed or denied.

 

[Madaglan]

Which “Popes”, Catholic Popes and/or Orthodox, I’m sorry, force of habit…Eastern Orthodox Popes?

I know Catholic Popes consider the post-11th Century Church(es)/pre-Reformation Christans as legitimate Churches.

I was just wondering which Popes you were referring to…ours, or yours.

Check out John Paul II’s Ut unum sint, especially paragraph 50.

Orientale Lumen is also very interesting, as the Eastern Orthodox are called sisters.

 

[Madaglan]

I guess you’re answer then is “no”…you “cannot” prove “The Eastern Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Church of Christ, the Church of the Apostles.”

It’s provable that The Catholic Church is The Church of Christ.

Proving which Church is The Church is “not” akin to proving something supernatural such as The Ressurection. There’s nothing supernatural about a visisble Church with a history that can either be historically confirmed or denied.

If one reads the Holy Fathers, studies Church history, Holy Scripture and prays for guidance, one will see that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ. It’s not magic, simply being opened to reality. The Orthodox Church *is *the historic Church, but it is not simply historical.

 

[2ndGen]

Orthodox Christians call themselves Catholic today. I consider myself Catholic.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by 2ndGen:

Who said anything about “public” revelation?

Now, can we accept that there is not “one” united Orthodox Church but that there are several hundreds of “Orthodox Churches” that are conidered “Eastern Othodox Christians”?

But there is one united Orthodox Church. They are united in Faith, even if they may have cultural differences and bicker over politics.

 

[2ndGen]

If one reads the Holy Fathers, studies Church history, Holy Scripture and prays for guidance, one will see that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ. It’s not magic, simply being opened to reality. The Orthodox Church *is *the historic Church, but it is not simply historical.

So, believe in The Eastern Orthodox Church like we believe in Christ?
Without proof?
Just based on blind faith?

Christian history proves that The Catholic Church is The Church that Christ instituted here on earth.

If by “The Holy Fathers” you are referring to The Church Fathers, they never mention The Eastern Orthodox Church. They only swear allegiance to The Catholic Church.

 

[2ndGen]

But there is one united Orthodox Church. They are united in Faith, even if they may have cultural differences and bicker over politics.

Who is their leader if they are united?

A group of anything cannot be united unless they are “lead” by someone.

A bunch of jelly beans are just separate jelly beans until they are placed in a bowl…the bowl dictates that (by the laws of physics) that they adhere together for form “a bowl of jelly beans”.

 

[2ndGen]

Check out John Paul II’s Ut unum sint, especially paragraph 50.

Orientale Lumen is also very interesting, as the Eastern Orthodox are called sisters.

I notice that about you Orthodox…when someone asks you for a book, you point to a library and say “it’s in there” instead of just handing us the book.

Why can’t you guys just answer a question straight out without deflection?

Which Popes believe what you stated?

Yours?

Our?

Both?

 

[2ndGen]

Sorry…I meant “you Eastern Orthodox”.

 

[2ndGen]

So, since the post 11th century Church that was excommunicated from The Catholic Church is know as The Eastern Orthodox Church, does that make The Western Church The Western Orthodox Church?

 

[Madaglan]

Is your usage of the word “Catholic” a typo?

Don’t you fit this definition more, “catholic” with the little “c”?

cath·o·lic
–adjective

1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.

The dictionary is not Scripture. The dictionary provides what is regarded a consensus in the English speaking world (and from a Western perspective, mind you) as to what a word means. In the English-speaking world, the word Catholic is commonly regarded by way of designation as referring to Roman Catholics. Orthodox Christians however consider themselves Catholic–and there is a basis for this: for they have been proclaiming their catholicity historically for two thousand years when they refer to the holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Orthodox Christians call themselves Orthodox because they are orthodox in their beliefs. In any case, whether the capital C belongs or not is a matter of which direction one is coming from. There’s no Pope of the English language who declares the limits of what a word can mean.

 

[Harpazo]

Shlomo!

I’ve heard that Estonia is in union with Constantinople, and Constantinople is in union with Moscow, but Moscow and Estonia aren’t in union. In fact at the famous Ravenna talks, Moscow walked out simply because Estonia was there. I’ve also read that the Antiochene Orthodox with to return to union with Rome (without breaking union with the Orthodox), but Moscow and Constantinople get upset about it (and I could see why).

Why is this?

I have a tremendous respect for the Orthodox and I admire their zeal, but I don’t understand how they claim unity with something like this going on. It’s only a matter of time before Moscow splits from the rest.

Why haven’t the Orthodox developed doctrine or held an ecumenical council? I think it’s because they can’t all agree on what they want to do and just sit there as they have for the past 1,000 years. I don’t mean any offense in this statement, it’s just an observation of mine.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

 

[2ndGen]

Shlomo!

I’ve heard that Estonia is in union with Constantinople, and Constantinople is in union with Moscow, but Moscow and Estonia aren’t in union. In fact at the famous Ravenna talks, Moscow walked out simply because Estonia was there. I’ve also read that the Antiochene Orthodox with to return to union with Rome (without breaking union with the Orthodox), but Moscow and Constantinople get upset about it (and I could see why).

Why is this?

I have a tremendous respect for the Orthodox and I admire their zeal, but I don’t understand how they claim unity with something like this going on. It’s only a matter of time before Moscow splits from the rest.

Why haven’t the Orthodox developed doctrine or held an ecumenical council? I think it’s because they can’t all agree on what they want to do and just sit there as they have for the past 1,000 years. I don’t mean any offense in this statement, it’s just an observation of mine.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

I love them.

I just have a difficult time with the American Eastern Orthodox Christians who seem to be in a completely different world than the Russian & Greek & Arab Orthodox Christians that I know.

 

[Madaglan]

So, believe in The Eastern Orthodox Church like we believe in Christ?
Without proof?
Just based on blind faith?

Christian history proves that The Catholic Church is The Church that Christ instituted here on earth.

If by “The Holy Fathers” you are referring to The Church Fathers, they never mention The Eastern Orthodox Church. They only swear allegiance to The Catholic Church.

Not in blind faith. Belief is reasonable, but one does not believe because of reason; one believes because of faith. Who wrote Christian history? Most of the books in English were written or translated by Roman Catholics and Protestants–history, in others words, written from Western perspective.

As I said before, Eastern Orthodox Christians believe their Church is the Catholic Church. I’d have to do research, but the name Orthodox Church probably was used later to distinguish the orthodox Church from other churches claiming to be the Catholic Church (e.g. the Latin Church).

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by 2ndGen:

So, since the post 11th century Church that was excommunicated from The Catholic Church is know as The Eastern Orthodox Church, does that make The Western Church The Western Orthodox Church?

According to Orthodox Christians, the West embraced theological errors and ceased to have the orthodox faith of the Fathers.