Orthodox Church

[cottice]

I may be dense but I probably get more than you realize. And you do use the term “Roman” Catholic Church.

Roman Catholic Church of Eastern Oklahoma

The word ‘Roman’ is not a part of the official name of the Church and the bishop of the diocese of Tulsa is not infallible. But just as we do not call the Orhodox Church the Schismatic Orthodox Church because it would be offensive to you, we would hope that you would at least show some civility and refer to the Catholic Church by its true and proper name. I say civility and not christian kindness since I discern a measure of hostility in your posts that may make any prospect of christian kindness improbable.
We shall see.

 

[Evan]

I guess my question would be which Catholic Church? I don’t see any way the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church could claim to come before the Melkite Greek Catholic. Did the Melkite Catholic Church come before the Roman Catholic Church? Which is the newest Catholic Church?

These churches are united in the One Church of Christ under his vicar the Pope. Their differences are of practice and theological expression, not of belief.

This unity is lacking in the different Orthodox Churches.

 

[Seraphim73]

The word ‘Roman’ is not a part of the official name of the Church and the bishop of the diocese of Tulsa is not infallible. But just as we do not call the Orhodox Church the Schismatic Orthodox Church because it would be offensive to you, we would hope that you would at least show some civility and refer to the Catholic Church by its true and proper name. I say civility and not christian kindness since I discern a measure of hostility in your posts that may make any prospect of christian kindness improbable.
We shall see.

I might recommend you not attempt discerning much from text on a computer screen. Simply because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they are hostile. And the website for the diocese of Tulsa and the many other diocesan websites that use the term Roman Catholic most certainly have to be approved by the bishop. Either way, I honestly can’t imagine anyone being actually offended by the term Roman Catholic.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The word ‘Roman’ is not a part of the official name of the Church and the bishop of the diocese of Tulsa is not infallible. But just as we do not call the Orhodox Church the Schismatic Orthodox Church because it would be offensive to you, we would hope that you would at least show some civility and refer to the Catholic Church by its true and proper name. I say civility and not christian kindness since I discern a measure of hostility in your posts that may make any prospect of christian kindness improbable.
We shall see.

Are you equally offended by Popes in the past having referred to the “Roman Catholic Church”?

 

[slh3016]

Please forgive in advance my vain attempt at dissecting this matter. After reading five pages of comments regarding the “which came first?” argument, followed by a lot of garble about catholic vs. Catholic, orthodox vs. Orthodox, Catholic vs. Orthodox matter, here is a parable to illustrate the matter.

Twin brothers grow up and become plumbers. They go to the same school and graduate the same day. They go into business together and call themselves the “Best Value Plumbing.” Over the course of 20 years, various issues arise in their partnership until one day, they both get angry and decide to part ways. Instead of bickering over business location, name, etc., one brother decides to open a new shop across the street naming his business “Most Affordable Plumbing.”

The Catholic argument would be that “Good Value Plumbing” is the truly the good value and most experienced (i.e., oldest) plumbing company because it had the name first.

The Orthodox argument would be that between the two companies, “Most Affordable Plumbing” is the most affordable because it has the same pricing as of the original company when it started 20 years ago and that it has just as much experience as “Good Value Plumbing”, while “Best Value Plumbing” has increased it rates 2% per year (albeit that “Good Value Plumbing” is still priced lower than 99% of all other plumbing companies in the area).

Both plumbing companies can lay claim to having 20 years experience and both can lay claim to being affordable and a good value. So, if someone asked you which plumbing company owner was a the most experienced and affordable, which would you say?

I know this is an oversimplification of the issue but the spitting match about when you first see names in history is fruitless and proves nothing. It boils down to a huge split in which each went their own way and one was forced to used a different qualifier in their name which became part of their PROPER NAME and not necessarily indicative of the authenticity of their claim (i.e., that the Catholic church is truly the catholic (universal church) or that the Orthodox church is the church with the true orthodox faith of the ECF).

 

[slh3016]

Please forgive in advance my vain attempt at dissecting this matter. After reading five pages of comments regarding the “which came first?” argument, followed by a lot of garble about catholic vs. Catholic, orthodox vs. Orthodox, Catholic vs. Orthodox matter, here is a parable to illustrate the matter.

Twin brothers grow up and become plumbers. They go to the same school and graduate the same day. They go into business together and call themselves the “Best Value Plumbing.” Over the course of 20 years, various issues arise in their partnership until one day, they both get angry and decide to part ways. Instead of bickering over business location, name, etc., one brother decides to open a new shop across the street naming his business “Most Affordable Plumbing.”

The Catholic argument would be that “Good Value Plumbing” is the truly the good value and most experienced (i.e., oldest) plumbing company because it had the name first.

The Orthodox argument would be that between the two companies, “Most Affordable Plumbing” is the most affordable because it has the same pricing as of the original company when it started 20 years ago and that it has just as much experience as “Good Value Plumbing”, while “Good Value Plumbing” has increased it rates 2% per year (albeit that “Good Value Plumbing” is still priced lower than 99% of all other plumbing companies in the area).

Both plumbing companies can lay claim to having 20 years experience and both can lay claim to being affordable and a good value. So, if someone asked you which plumbing company owner was a the most experienced and affordable, which would you say?

I know this is an oversimplification of the issue but the spitting match about when you first see names in history is fruitless and proves nothing. It boils down to a huge split in which each went their own way and one was forced to used a different qualifier in their name which became part of their PROPER NAME and not necessarily indicative of the authenticity of their claim (i.e., that the Catholic church is truly the catholic (universal church) or that the Orthodox church is the church with the true orthodox faith of the ECF).

Typo in previous post…corrected in quote above.

 

[cottice]

I might recommend you not attempt discerning much from text on a computer screen. Simply because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they are hostile. And the website for the diocese of Tulsa and the many other diocesan websites that use the term Roman Catholic most certainly have to be approved by the bishop. Either way, I honestly can’t imagine anyone being actually offended by the term Roman Catholic.

I could say the same thing about using the term “Schismatic Orthodox Church”. But the fact that you can’t imagine any offense only goes to show your complete lack of christian qualities. In essence you do not care if you offend anyone. But you are not alone, if that gives you any comfort. I have found that this haughtiness is a quality that seems to permeate Orthodoxy. Furthermore, you do realize that you no longer have the filioque to use as your red herring to attempt to justify the continuing schism. So what is the excuse now? Orthodoxy received the retribution of God for rejecting reunification at the Council of Florence in 1537. Just a few years later you lost your cathedral church, the Haggia Sophia, to the moslems and it stands today as a mosgue and should be a vivid reminder to all the Orthodox of rejecting God’s will. The Jews rejected the Messiah and lost their temple to a pagan army and the Orthodox did likewise.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Please forgive in advance my vain attempt at dissecting this matter. After reading five pages of comments regarding the “which came first?” argument, followed by a lot of garble about catholic vs. Catholic, orthodox vs. Orthodox, Catholic vs. Orthodox matter, here is a parable to illustrate the matter.

Twin brothers grow up and become plumbers. They go to the same school and graduate the same day. They go into business together and call themselves the “Best Value Plumbing.” Over the course of 20 years, various issues arise in their partnership until one day, they both get angry and decide to part ways. Instead of bickering over business location, name, etc., one brother decides to open a new shop across the street naming his business “Most Affordable Plumbing.”

The Catholic argument would be that “Good Value Plumbing” is the truly the good value and most experienced (i.e., oldest) plumbing company because it had the name first.

The Orthodox argument would be that between the two companies, “Most Affordable Plumbing” is the most affordable because it has the same pricing as of the original company when it started 20 years ago and that it has just as much experience as “Good Value Plumbing”, while “Best Value Plumbing” has increased it rates 2% per year (albeit that “Good Value Plumbing” is still priced lower than 99% of all other plumbing companies in the area).

Both plumbing companies can lay claim to having 20 years experience and both can lay claim to being affordable and a good value. So, if someone asked you which plumbing company owner was a the most experienced and affordable, which would you say?

I know this is an oversimplification of the issue but the spitting match about when you first see names in history is fruitless and proves nothing. It boils down to a huge split in which each went their own way and one was forced to used a different qualifier in their name which became part of their PROPER NAME and not necessarily indicative of the authenticity of their claim (i.e., that the Catholic church is truly the catholic (universal church) or that the Orthodox church is the church with the true orthodox faith of the ECF).

There is some value (no pun intended) in your analogy, but the problem is this: Jesus promised to build ONE Church upon Peter, the rock (cf. Mt. 16:18), and while all of the Apostles were given a measure of authority in Mt. 18, only Peter received the keys of the Royal Steward which set him above the others (cf. Mt. 16:19, Is. 22:20-22) as well as the commission as the vicarious shepherd of the One Flock (cf. Jn. 21:15-17).

Thus, Best Value Plumbing is based upon the instructions and authority given to one brother by their Father and older brother (who was the one who REALLY promised to build the plumbing business in the first place!). They recognized that one twin had a better head for business than the other. Today, BVP is operated by the current company president (who succeeded the founding twin) and his management team out of the same facility from which the business was run from the beginning.

While remaining true to the company’s original core values, BVP has modernized, added additional services, merged with several other plumbing companies, expanded with new locations, and with the continued guidance of the older brother (who is mayor of the town, btw) its marketshare has outstripped that of all its competitors combined.

Across the street, MAP has also remained true to the original vision and principles with which BVP began, but despite the specific instructions of the older brother (cf. Jn 17:21), it has relocated and decentralized its management team not to a single newer facility but two four decentralized locations with additional smaller locations that operate semi-autonomously. In fact, the second twin has little real authority over these 13 -]autocephalous/-] additional locations which are, for all intents and purposes, acting as independent franchisees.

Of course, all the folks in town can see for themselves which of the two companies IS “Best Value Plumbing” despite all the marketing efforts of the other shops which now refer to themselves as “Most Affordable Plumbing” in the signage on the sides of their vans.

 

[cottice]

Are you equally offended by Popes in the past having referred to the “Roman Catholic Church”?

Got any in mind? And to answer your question: the answer would be yes, . . . if they did.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Got any in mind?

In an apologetics forum, like a courtroom, never ask a question you don’t know the answer to.

:nope:

 

[slh3016]

There is some value (no pun intended) in your analogy, but the problem is this: Jesus promised to build ONE Church upon Peter, the rock (cf. Mt. 16:18), and while all of the Apostles were given a measure of authority in Mt. 18, only Peter received the keys of the Royal Steward which set him above the others (cf. Mt. 16:19, Is. 22:20-22) as well as the commission as the vicarious shepherd of the One Flock (cf. Jn. 21:15-17).

Thus, Best Value Plumbing is based upon the instructions and authority given to one brother by their father who recognized that he had a better head for business than his twin. It is operated out of the same facility from which the business was run from the beginning. Additionally, while remaining true to the company’s original core values, BVP has modernized, added additional services that, merged with several other plumbing companies, expanded with new locations, and its marketshare has outstripped that of all its competitors combined.

Across the street, MAP has also remained true to the original vision and principles with which BVP began, but it has relocated and decentralized its management team not to a single newer facility but two four decentralized locations with additional smaller locations that operate semi-autonomously. In fact, the second twin has little real authority over these 13 -]autocephalous/-] additional locations which are, for all intents and purposes, acting as independent franchisees.

Of course, all the folks in town can see for themselves which of the two companies IS “Best Value Plumbing” despite all the marketing efforts of the other shops which now refer to themselves as “Most Affordable Plumbing” in the signage on the sides of their vans.

I’m not saying I disagree with you.

The Orthodox Church say they are the oldest church. Is this true?

My point was that the semantics of trying to prove to the OP which one was the TRUE church based solely upon WHOSE name appeared first in history is rather fruitless. One has to look at the deeper issues of why the two split in the first place to determine the legitimacy of their claims as to who holds the TRUE faith. Simply saying, “Well, we are THE Catholic Church makes us more legitimate because an ECF wrote something about a “catholic (universal)” church” holds no more water than an Orthodox saying, “Well, our name is Orthodox so therefore WE hold the orthodox faith of the early church and everyone else is heterodox/schismatic.”

Imagine calling BVP plumbing and asking the receptionist, “Are you the cheapest plumber around with the best service?” and she reply, “Well, our name is Best Value Plumbing so of course we are.” Then, you call, MAP and ask the same question with the same response. Do you leave those conversations knowing which one is TRULY the most affordable with the best service? No.

Again, I’m not disagreeing with you, but as a Protestant (on the fence and researching both the Catholic Church and Orthodox faith fervently), most of this entire thread has appeared to be a spitting match that, superficially, proves nothing in regards to which church can claim they are the oldest because they both can. Just as a person cannot know which plumbing company is the better value based solely on their names without further information, one cannot know which claims to being the church that Jesus founded without a lot more research.

I think we can all agree on that.

 

[RyanBlack]

I could say the same thing about using the term “Schismatic Orthodox Church”. But the fact that you can’t imagine any offense only goes to show your complete lack of christian qualities. In essence you do not care if you offend anyone. But you are not alone, if that gives you any comfort. I have found that this haughtiness is a quality that seems to permeate Orthodoxy. Furthermore, you do realize that you no longer have the filioque to use as your red herring to attempt to justify the continuing schism. So what is the excuse now? Orthodoxy received the retribution of God for rejecting reunification at the Council of Florence in 1537. Just a few years later you lost your cathedral church, the Haggia Sophia, to the moslems and it stands today as a mosgue and should be a vivid reminder to all the Orthodox of rejecting God’s will. The Jews rejected the Messiah and lost their temple to a pagan army and the Orthodox did likewise.

This post shows little or no concern on your part about offending anyone, but I would not presume to speak of your “complete lack of Christian qualities,” since I’m in no more position to reach such a conclusion about you than you are to reach such a conclusion about Seraphim73.

Haughtiness is by no means lacking among Catholics, so it probably would be best for us Catholics not to make such accusations of the Orthodox.

As for your assertions about the Hagia Sophia, you ought to stay away from that as well. For what sins of Catholics did we lose all of Northern Africa to Islam? For what sins of Catholics have some of our cathedrals been converted into mosques? For what sins of Catholics were so many churches and monasteries seized by Henry VIII of England? Also, the Hagia Sophia is no longer a mosque, it is a museum, and has been for several decades.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Got any in mind? And to answer your question: the answer would be yes, . . . if they did.

Pope Pius XI in the encyclical Divini Illius Magistri refers to the “Holy Roman Catholic Church.” Similarly, Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis refers to “Ecclesiam Catholicam Romanam.”

 

[Cavaradossi]

Orthodoxy received the retribution of God for rejecting reunification at the Council of Florence in 1537. Just a few years later you lost your cathedral church, the Haggia Sophia, to the moslems and it stands today as a mosgue and should be a vivid reminder to all the Orthodox of rejecting God’s will.

I suppose you should review your history, because, the Emperor in fact used civil power after Florence to enforce the terms of the union (in other words, from the time of Florence to the fall of Constantinople, the official imperial policy in Constantinople was union with Rome). Indeed, though there were several other qualified bishops who could have been elected patriarch after the untimely death of Patriarch Joseph at Florence, Metrophanes was the only one who was willing to accept the Emperor’s terms that he would have to support the union, and so he wound up receiving the role of Patriarch almost by default. Indeed, if the fall of Constantinople were a chastisement from God, then it should imply the exact opposite of what you think it does, considering that the See of Constantinople for that unhappy decade or so after Florence left the fold (unlike Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Georgia, which stayed true to the Orthodox faith) to join itself to Rome.

By the way, the council of Ferrara-Florence was first convened in 1437, and the tenuous terms of union were not agreed upon until 1439.

The Jews rejected the Messiah and lost their temple to a pagan army and the Orthodox did likewise.

I was not aware that Christians were allowed to believe, like the Jews, in a singular place of worship where blood-sacrifices were made for the remission of sins. Indeed, Christians believe that all of our altars are equivalent in the eyes of God, as the Eucharistic sacrifice is the same everywhere. The fall of one, though tragic, is inconsequential, unlike the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

[steve_b]

Is distinguishing beliefs based on whether or not the word is capitalized in writing an orthodox practice?

catholic vs Catholic, orthodox vs Orthodox.

It helps when being specific.

 

[steve_b]

Yes I know all this. Then according to steve b’s logic the Roman Catholic Church was founded sometime after the Reformation and is not the same as the Catholic Church St Ignatius referred to.

sheesh!

 

[tdgesq]

The “Roman Church” is referred to in the Council of Florence no less than 80 times to distinguish it from the “Greek” Churches. Maybe we should have a debate as to whether those labels for the particular Catholic Churches render one or both non-Catholic. Or maybe not.

 

[steve_b]

I agree. It’s silly to argue about what group of believers ended up with what label, rather than discuss the underlying doctrinal differences.

The name is hugely important,** AND** in this case goes with bonafides. I’ll explain

That’s why Augustine made the following argument

• Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental ch 4 vs 5

That’s why Irenaeus made the following arguments in [Against Heresies]

• Bk 1 ch 10 vs 3 newadvent.org/fathers/0103110.htm
• Bk 3 introduction to ch 4 newadvent.org/fathers/0103304.htm
• “The truth is to be found nowhere else but in the Catholic Church, the sole depository of apostolic doctrine. Heresies are of recent formation, and cannot trace their origin up to the apostles.”

And just in case one is the least bit confused about who specifically these two doctors of the Catholic Church are talking of in terms of lineage from Peter, thus they identify who is head of the Catholic Church, both Irenaeus and Augustine give the lineage of bishops

• in Rome,
• by name,
• in succession from Peter.
• down to their day

Irenaeus [Chapter 3 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm) vs 2
Augustine [Letter 53 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102053.htm) Ch 1 vs 2

So yes name matters too. As Augustine says so well, every heretic and schismatic group wants to have the name Catholic Church. But only one Church qualifies for that name.

 

[steve_b]

Good, then we agree steve b’s argument is absurd. Hopefully we can avoid having it again in the future.

It’s your argument that is absurd

 

[steve_b]

No one has refuted anything. There is nothing for you to refute. I’m not making the argument about names. I’m simply stating the opposite of steve b’s argument to illustrate it’s absurdity. You keep repeating that it’s absurd to say that the Roman Catholic Church is not the Church St Ignatius referred to because of the qualifier “Roman.” But then you don’t extend that same logic to qualifier “Orthodox.” It’s a complete non sequitur.

Actually when Ignatius wrote his 6 letters to the Catholic Church in 6 locations, when he writes to the Catholic Church of Rome, he says only to that Church it holds the presidency.

To make that point again, Irenaeus wrote,
Bk 3 Chapter 3

1. “Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.”

Irenaeus tells us where he received this teaching. “Tradition derived from Peter and Paul in Rome, and preserved by faithful men everywhere” down to his day.
S:

Both Churches make the same claims about themselves. Both use qualifiers in modern parlance to clarify and distinguish themselves. You use “Roman” Catholic Church and we use “Orthodox” Catholic Church. And if you want to see references to the “orthodox” faith take some time and read the acts and sessions of the ecumenical councils. You might learn a thing or two.

One Church is led by the successor to Peter. No one else qualifies.