Orthodox Eucharist valid but illicit?

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Sadly, it doesn’t take me there. What is his support for such a statement? Paragraph 15 of Unitatis Redintegratio only makes a statement on the validity of Eastern Orthodox sacraments so he must have more support for this I assume.
I do not have a copy of the book, and honestly, I do not have time now to read long portions of this or other works he may have written. Perhaps you could contact him and ask him. A google search of his name should provide you with contact information.
 
Since the Eastern Orthodox are not baptized members of the Catholic Church, Catholic Canon Law does not apply to them, so “licit” and “illicit” are not applicable terms to use.
I have to agree, Elizium. Neither of the answers makes sense, because the question doesn’t make sense.

We have two very active threads essentially asking Catholics whether an Orthodox priest licitly celebrates the Eucharist … which is like if I did something and then called up the government of New Zealand to ask whether it was legal.
 
I have to agree, Elizium. Neither of the answers makes sense, because the question doesn’t make sense.

We have two very active threads essentially asking Catholics whether an Orthodox priest licitly celebrates the Eucharist … which is like if I did something and then called up the government of New Zealand to ask whether it was legal.
No it makes sense because according to sacramental theology, the sacraments were given by Christ to the Church. The Church is the lawful keeper of these sacraments and only she has the divine right to Celebrate/perform these sacraments. Outside of her, exists and illicit/illegal performance of the sacraments because the sacraments rightly belong to the Catholic Church.
 
It is the Eastern Orthodox who are separated from the true Church founded by Christ upon the Rock of Peter, separated through disobedience and heresy. We are not both Churches founded by Christ and separated from one another - the Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from the Church and therefore were founded by men and not God.
 
It is the Eastern Orthodox who are separated from the true Church founded by Christ upon the Rock of Peter, separated through disobedience and heresy. We are not both Churches founded by Christ and separated from one another - the Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from the Church and therefore were founded by men and not God.
Your rcia/Catechism is lacking, the Eastern Orthodox churches have Apostolic succession recognized by the Catholic church. They ARE both churches founded by Christ whether you think so or not. Your opinion is not shared by the majority of true Catholics.
 
Obviously she’s not one of those new calendar Orthodox, as today is the Eve of Theophany on the Revised Julian Calendar. 🙂
 
It is the Eastern Orthodox who are separated from the true Church founded by Christ upon the Rock of Peter, separated through disobedience and heresy. We are not both Churches founded by Christ and separated from one another - the Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from the Church and therefore were founded by men and not God.
This is simply and clearly not what the Catholic Church teaches about Orthodoxy.
 
This is simply and clearly not what the Catholic Church teaches about Orthodoxy.
I agree, although I doubt this will convince anyone who e.g. doesn’t accept Vatican II. They could simply deny the evidence by saying th current leadership has stumbled.
 
This is simply and clearly not what the Catholic Church teaches about Orthodoxy.
Ironically, a lot of Orthodox on CAF prefer this hardline stance on the OC rather than the Catholic position that the Orthodox Churches are true Churches. They have a strong allergy to ecumenism.
 
Ironically, a lot of Orthodox on CAF prefer this hardline stance on the OC rather than the Catholic position that the Orthodox Churches are true Churches. They have a strong allergy to ecumenism.
True. And ther are other Orthodox who might not say that but are bothered by the branch-theory-esque ideas which Wandile , on another recent thread, observed among some Catholics. (Wandile are you on this thread too?)
 
Your rcia/Catechism is lacking, the Eastern Orthodox churches have Apostolic succession recognized by the Catholic church. They ARE both churches founded by Christ whether you think so or not. Your opinion is not shared by the majority of true Catholics.
No this is wrong and heretical and has been condemned by the catholic church in the councils and Papal Decrees. This is branch theory. Only the catholic church is the church of Christ.They may have apostolic succession but they are objectively a schismatic body hence they are not in our communion.

Ecumenical Councils
  • Fourth Lateran Council*
There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Spoken by Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445)

“[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
(Spoken by Pope Eugene IV at the Council of Florence)

Popes

Pre-Vatican II

Pope Boniface VIII

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” ( Bull Unam Sanctam, in 1302 A.D.)

Venerable Pope Pius IX

“The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman: unique, the Chair founded on Peter … Outside her fold is to be found neither the true faith nor eternal salvation, for it is impossible to have God for a Father if one has not the Church for a Mother.”

Pope Saint Pius V

“He Who reigns on high, to Whom is given all power in Heaven and on earth, has entrusted His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which there is no salvation, to one person on earth alone, namely: to Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and to Peter’s successor, the Roman Pontiff, to be governed by him with the fullness of power.”

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939):

“The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958):

“By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Post-Vatican II

Pope Saint John XXIII

"Before everything else, fidelity to the Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Jesus did not found several churches, but one single Church. "

Pope Blessed Paul VI

“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is the Head and Savior … The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating The Church … Do not all those who are baptized belong to the Church? And is not the Church only one Church? Yes, but membership in the Church requires conditions other than baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that … by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fullness of means to salvation … The Church, and the Church alone, possesses the secret of true relationship to God as established by Jesus Christ. Indeed, the Church is this very relationship, which is both a certain and an exclusive means of attaining salvation… Those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit …The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”

** Servant of God. Pope John Paul I**

" The Ship of the Church is guided by Christ and by His Vicar … It alone carries the disciples and receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but, outside it, one would perish immediately. Salvation is only in the Church; outside it, one perishes."

Pope Saint John Paul II

“As a sacrament of intimate union with God, the Church is in Christ, outside Whom there is no salvation.”

…"…
 
It is the Eastern Orthodox who are separated from the true Church founded by Christ upon the Rock of Peter, separated through disobedience and heresy. We are not both Churches founded by Christ and separated from one another - the Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from the Church and therefore were founded by men and not God.
It is contrary to Catholic teaching to say that the Orthodox Churches were founded by men.

From Pope St. John Paul II’s Ut Unum Sint

In its historical survey the Council Decree Unitatis Redintegratio has in mind the unity which, in spite of everything, was experienced in the first millennium and in a certain sense now serves as a kind of model. “This most sacred Synod gladly reminds all … that in the East there flourish many particular or local Churches; among them the Patriarchal Churches hold first place; and of these, many glory in taking their origin from the Apostles themselves.”
 
It is contrary to Catholic teaching to say that the Orthodox Churches were founded by men.

From Pope St. John Paul II’s Ut Unum Sint

In its historical survey the Council Decree Unitatis Redintegratio has in mind the unity which, in spite of everything, was experienced in the first millennium and in a certain sense now serves as a kind of model. “This most sacred Synod gladly reminds all … that in the East there flourish many particular or local Churches; among them the Patriarchal Churches hold first place; and of these, many glory in taking their origin from the Apostles themselves.”
Not assuming to speak for anyone,

I think what was meant, schism / division is a man made issue. It is NOT from God but from one’s own selfish appetites and it is from Satan as Paul wrote

Note: **διχοστασίας **is in both selections.

Romans 16:17-20 (links operational)
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily

And Paul teaches that it carries a disastrous consequence for the one in it if they die in that sin

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας] sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

As to who divided from whom, it’s easy to see Peter doesn’t divide from himself. There is Peter and those united with him, and then there are those who aren’t.
 
No this is wrong and heretical and has been condemned by the catholic church in the councils and Papal Decrees. This is branch theory. Only the catholic church is the church of Christ.They may have apostolic succession but they are objectively a schismatic body hence they are not in our communion.
Branch Theory is not held by either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. However, referring to the Orthodox as our “seperated brethren”, rather than calling them “a schismatic body”, is not Branch Theory. It’s just mature ecumenical dialogue.
 
However, referring to the Orthodox as our “seperated brethren”, rather than calling them “a schismatic body”, is not Branch Theory. It’s just mature ecumenical dialogue.
If I may interject a note to refresh 😉

The term “separated brethren” was in at least limited use in the RCC long before post-concilar “ecumenical dialogue” became fashionable.
 
Branch Theory is not held by either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. However, referring to the Orthodox as our “seperated brethren”, rather than calling them “a schismatic body”, is not Branch Theory. It’s just mature ecumenical dialogue.
I would add to that the fact that the Catholic Church refers to the Orthodox Churches as “Sister Churches.”
 
Not only does the Catholic Church refer to the Orthodox Churches as “Sister Churches,” but also speaks of the “very close sacramental bonds between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches” and the “real but imperfect communion” between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. So there is a reality here, with respect to the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches that goes far beyond mere ecumenical language.
 
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