Orthodox Rabbis issue groundbreaking statement on Christianity

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(Vatican Radio) For the first time since the Second Vatican Council changed Christian teachings toward Judaism and the Jewish people 50 years ago, a group of Orthodox rabbis have issued a public statement advocating partnership with Christians and appreciating the religious value of Christianity.

Published on December 3rd on the website of the Center for Jewish-Christian Understanding and Cooperation (CJCUC) in Israel, “To Do the Will of Our Father in Heaven: Toward a Partnership between Jews and Christians” is signed by over 25 prominent Orthodox rabbis in Israel, United States and Europe and calls for cooperation between Jews and Christians to address the moral and religious challenges of our times. The proclamation’s authors are inviting fellow Orthodox rabbis to join in signing the statement.

“The real importance of this Orthodox statement is that it calls for fraternal partnership between Jewish and Christian religious leaders, while also acknowledging the positive theological status of the Christian faith. Jews and Christians must be in the forefront of teaching basic moral values to the world,” said Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, one of the statement’s initiators, and founder of CJCUC, member of the Israeli Rabbinate and the Chief Rabbi of Efrat. While not a direct response to the Church’s 1965 “Nostra Aetate,” “To Do the Will of Our Father in Heaven” was clearly influenced by Christianity’s new affirmation of the eternity of the Jewish covenant and the respect that Christian leaders have demonstrated toward Judaism and Jews in contemporary dialogues and religious encounters.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/orthodox_rabbis_issue_groundbreaking_statement_on_christians/1193458

This is so much more than a bridge. A chasm has closed this week and the world is a less divided place for it. :heaven::heaven:
 
LongingSoul said:
(Vatican Radio) For the first time since the Second Vatican Council changed Christian teachings toward Judaism and the Jewish people 50 years ago, a group of Orthodox rabbis have issued a public statement advocating partnership with Christians and appreciating the religious value of Christianity.

Published on December 3rd on the website of the Center for Jewish-Christian Understanding and Cooperation (CJCUC) in Israel, “To Do the Will of Our Father in Heaven: Toward a Partnership between Jews and Christians” is signed by over 25 prominent Orthodox rabbis in Israel, United States and Europe and calls for cooperation between Jews and Christians to address the moral and religious challenges of our times. The proclamation’s authors are inviting fellow Orthodox rabbis to join in signing the statement.

“The real importance of this Orthodox statement is that it calls for fraternal partnership between Jewish and Christian religious leaders, while also acknowledging the positive theological status of the Christian faith. Jews and Christians must be in the forefront of teaching basic moral values to the world,” said Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, one of the statement’s initiators, and founder of CJCUC, member of the Israeli Rabbinate and the Chief Rabbi of Efrat. While not a direct response to the Church’s 1965 “Nostra Aetate,” “To Do the Will of Our Father in Heaven” was clearly influenced by Christianity’s new affirmation of the eternity of the Jewish covenant and the respect that Christian leaders have demonstrated toward Judaism and Jews in contemporary dialogues and religious encounters.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/orthodox_rabbis_issue_groundbreaking_statement_on_christians/1193458

This is so much more than a bridge. A chasm has closed this week and the world is a less divided place for it. :heaven::heaven:
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“Jews and Christians must be in the forefront of teaching basic moral values to the world,” said Rabbi Shlomo Riskin,”

I think most religions and philosophies teach basic moral principles.It is not unique to Judaism or Christianity.

There is really no great divide between Judaism and Christianity. St John Paul2 said it so eloquently when he said that Jews are our elder brothers.
The main theological difference is that Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah and are still waiting for the Jewish Messiah to come and create a utopic world.
 
cjforJesus said:
There is really no great divide between Judaism and Christianity. St John Paul2 said it so eloquently when he said that Jews are our elder brothers.
The main theological difference is that Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah and are still waiting for the Jewish Messiah to come and create a utopic world.
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That may be true, but the perceived gulf is huge. For centuries the Jews were derided and persecuted as “Christ-killers”. That wouldn’t be easy to forget on their side.
 
I read the statement. The rabbis seem to be saying, “now that the Catholics recognize our old covenant has not been revoked (thus we Jews do not need Christ for salvation), we will say Christianity was not an error. But don’t try to convert us.”

Jesus said to his disciples, “who do you say that I am?” How would these rabbis answer that question? A non-error? A messianic figure for the Gentiles only? I honestly cannot tell from their statement.

Either Jesus Christ is the Messiah or he is not. The chasm has closed halfway by the recognition of the continuing validity of the old covenant. But the other half will never close until Christ is recognized as the Messiah. And that the Jews seemingly cannot do, for that recognition would mean they have accepted Christianity as the truth and not merely non-error.

I say this as a convert from a nominally Jewish family.
 
Tigre said:
I read the statement. The rabbis seem to be saying, “now that the Catholics recognize our old covenant has not been revoked (thus we Jews do not need Christ for salvation), we will say Christianity was not an error. But don’t try to convert us.”

Jesus said to his disciples, “who do you say that I am?” How would these rabbis answer that question? A non-error? A messianic figure for the Gentiles only? I honestly cannot tell from their statement.

Either Jesus Christ is the Messiah or he is not. The chasm has closed halfway by the recognition of the continuing validity of the old covenant. But the other half will never close until Christ is recognized as the Messiah. And that the Jews seemingly cannot do, for that recognition would mean they have accepted Christianity as the truth and not merely non-error.

I say this as a convert from a nominally Jewish family.
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I doubt the Rabbis confess that Jesus is the Son of God but it’s clear from this step that Judaism has recognised Christianity as a legitimate development for a long time prior. There just hasn’t been a platform to meet on in this way before. In general, relationships of any sort can survive and thrive without reiterating impasse statements. In secular talk that space is called synergy. Pope Francis describes the Churchs best attitude now as synodal. From what I’ve observed of this attitude, it is extremely effective and fruitful.
 
LongingSoul said:
I doubt the Rabbis confess that Jesus is the Son of God but it’s clear from this step that Judaism has recognised Christianity as a legitimate development for a long time prior.
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This is why I wonder how these Rabbis would answer Christ’s question. I’m honestly curious how, from a Jewish standpoint, Christianity can be viewed as a “legitimate development” if, at the same time, Christ is not recognized as the legitimate Messiah. These positions, to me, cannot be reconciled.

I agree that having formal mutual-recognition documents from both sides is beneficial to rein in extremists in both camps, but it seems very one-sided to me for the Catholic document to affirm the old covenant in its entirety while this document admits the new covenant is, at most, non-error.
 
This OP is unintelligible as yet. The Vatican is remiss in not giving us a clear explanation; either Jesus was the long-awaited Jewish Christ foretold in the Old Testament or he was not. The Old Testament is nothing if not the inspired prediction to Jews by Jews of the coming of Jesus, their Christ as well as ours. God can’t deceive, and He said He came first for the Jews.

On Good Friday we and the Church should continue to pray for the conversion of the Jews just as Jesus did, even though the Jews don’t like it. Are we now going to change our liturgy so that we can be politically correct?

To add to my confusion, Pope Francis said during his December 6 Angelus address that “We should always convert, to have the sentiments that Jesus did.” He then added this (to me, at least) head-scratcher:

“Each one of us is called to make Jesus known to those who still do not know him,” he added. “But this is not to proselytize … If Our Lord Jesus has changed our lives, and he changes it every time we draw close to him, how can we not feel a passion to make him known to those we find at work, at school, in our communities, in the hospital, in meeting places?”

So, we are told to make Jesus known and covert everyone, but not proselytize, and not try to convert Jews. I’ll just bite my lip.

Until we get clarification, it’s no use speculating what all the OP’s contradictions to actual teaching and clear Biblical statements mean. Until then, I’ll keep it in the same category as man-made global warming.
 
Tigre said:
Either Jesus Christ is the Messiah or he is not. The chasm has closed halfway by the recognition of the continuing validity of the old covenant. But the other half will never close until Christ is recognized as the Messiah. And that the Jews seemingly cannot do, for that recognition would mean they have accepted Christianity as the truth and not merely non-error.
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And the New Covenant of Christ is not a separate covenant unrelated to previous covenants, Christ’s covenant was the fulfilment of the previous covenants. How can a covenant that is fulfilled through Christ’s covenant be valid on its own, independent from the New Covenant?
 
Brendan_64 said:
And the New Covenant of Christ is not a separate covenant unrelated to previous covenants, Christ’s covenant was the fulfilment of the previous covenants. How can a covenant that is fulfilled through Christ’s covenant be valid on its own, independent from the New Covenant?
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I agree. Hence my conversion.

But I can at least understand a Christian position recognizing the continuing validity of the old covenant. Even if I personally do not agree.

I just cannot construct an argument from a Jewish position that both covenants are valid (or even that the new covenant is, at a minimum, a “legitimate development”) without recognizing Christ as The Hebrew Messiah. It is incoherent, to me.

If anyone can posit an argument for the latter, I’d be interested to hear it.
 
Indeed.

From a Christian perspective if the Kingship through the line of David is represented by Christ, the how can the Davidic Covenant be viewed as still valid independently ongoing since Christ as King has been rejected as fulfilling the Davidic Covenant?

And from a Jewish perspective how can a New Covenant which fulfils previous covenants be valid in itself amongst a people if the claims of that covenant are viewed as being false?
 
Tigre said:
I agree. Hence my conversion.

But I can at least understand a Christian position recognizing the continuing validity of the old covenant. Even if I personally do not agree.

I just cannot construct an argument from a Jewish position that both covenants are valid (or even that the new covenant is, at a minimum, a “legitimate development”) without recognizing Christ as The Hebrew Messiah. It is incoherent, to me.

If anyone can posit an argument for the latter, I’d be interested to hear it.
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That’s probably asking a lot from a group of people that are wannabe theologians at best. It’s enough that Catholic theologians are actively working through this issue at the moment in the light of eschatology (study of the last things). We do know for certain that ‘Christ will come again’ as a fulfillment of prophecy and as we know from pre Christian faith, that there is a long period of preparation paving the way for Christs first coming because accepting requires a the growth of receptivity to Truth. When Jesus began His preaching ministry, good faithful people who had spent their whole life preparing for the Messiah, couldn’t receive Him as they were too locked into the academics of it all. Jesus communicated through the heart and it was in that forum that the people were able to accept His relationship with sinners and His development of the meaning of the rules ie. when He defended the Apostles plucking grains on the Sabbath and not washing themselves ritually before eating etc.

I personally experience the mission of Pope Francis as that type of preparation. Since it was the mercy of Jesus that challenged the academic Jews its not unreasonable to think that the mercy of the Church will challenge that aspect of the current Catholic faithful.
 
I am a former Catholic now doing my best to follow the Torah as it applies to Gentiles. This is the perspective I’m coming from, just FYI.

There is a long tradition of understanding both Christianity and Islam as willed by God. In fact, many of the greatest Rabbis taught that everything is willed by God. Since Christianity and Islam are things, they are willed by God by default. 😛

On a serious note, there has long been a recognition that Christianity and Islam have done much good for the world by spreading the knowledge of the one God and encouraging morality closely aligned with God’s expectations for Gentiles. Both Islam and Christianity have obliterated the ancient idols in huge portions of the world, paving the way for the appearance of the messiah and universal recognition of the one God.

This doesn’t mean, however, that Jews accept Christianity as legitimate! There is simply no way a human being can actually be God. Period. End of story. Could he pretend to be, appear to be, or take a form as a human being? Sure, he has done that several times! But, in his essence, he can’t be a human being, in my opinion of course.

Though it isn’t “politically correct” today, many ancient rabbis considered Christianity a form of idolatry. The majority view today is that Christianity is not idolatry in the way of ancient religions and paganism. The word used to describe it is “shituf” or less-than-pure monotheism. Obviously, this is a topic for debate among Jews of various persuasions. None of them, however, accept Jesus as God or the messiah, or else they would become Christians of course!

Personally, I believe God in his infinite wisdom used Christianity and Islam to gradually guide crude ancient pagans away from magical, pagan beliefs to belief in the one God. God created vastly more gentiles than Jews, and I believe he has a good plan for us. I think Christianity and Islam are part of this plan, to prepare us for the coming of the messiah. When the true messiah comes, he will establish world peace and universal recognition of the one God, the father of all. At that time, theological debates will cease and the perplexities and disagreements which have caused so much suffering, anguish, and bloodshed these long centuries will fade into distant memory. May this happen soon!
 
cjforJesus said:
“Jews and Christians must be in the forefront of teaching basic moral values to the world,” said Rabbi Shlomo Riskin,”

I think most religions and philosophies teach basic moral principles.It is not unique to Judaism or Christianity.

There is really no great divide between Judaism and Christianity. St John Paul2 said it so eloquently when he said that Jews are our elder brothers.
The main theological difference is that Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah and are still waiting for the Jewish Messiah to come and create a utopic world.
Click to expand...
Jesus is kind of a big deal.
 
DaddyGirl said:
Right. So then…why does he limit the forefront of teaching moral values to Jews and Christians?
How about…everybody …should teach basic moral values?

No great divide?
He thinks not believing Jesus is the anointed one and savior and son of God and died for people’s sins as just a small “theological difference”?
If that’s the case, then there isn’t a great divide between Christianity and other religions as well.
Most religions and philosophies, as he says, teach basic moral values and we can and should all see each other as our brothers and sisters.
He should include* everyone* in this family.

.
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Because basic moral values aren’t held by everyone. Jews and Christians pretty much agree on moral issues.
 
LongingSoul said:
I doubt the Rabbis confess that Jesus is the Son of God but it’s clear from this step that Judaism has recognised Christianity as a legitimate development for a long time prior. There just hasn’t been a platform to meet on in this way before. In general, relationships of any sort can survive and thrive without reiterating impasse statements. In secular talk that space is called synergy. Pope Francis describes the Churchs best attitude now as synodal. From what I’ve observed of this attitude, it is extremely effective and fruitful.
Click to expand...
No they don’t recognize christianity as a legitimate development; otherwise they would all be Christian.
 
Mongo said:
No they don’t recognize christianity as a legitimate development; otherwise they would all be Christian.
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The Rabbis wrote… "As did Maimonides and Yehudah Halevi,[1] we acknowledge that Christianity is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome and gift to the nations. In separating Judaism and Christianity, G-d willed a separation between partners with significant theological differences, not a separation between enemies. "

"the willed divine outcome and gift to the nations."

A “G-d willed” separation.

There are many other phrases and ideas in the statement that demonstrate belief that the coming of Christ created a new ‘God willed’ forum that is becoming manifest now in reality.
 
LongingSoul said:
That’s probably asking a lot from a group of people that are wannabe theologians at best. It’s enough that Catholic theologians are actively working through this issue at the moment in the light of eschatology (study of the last things). We do know for certain that ‘Christ will come again’ as a fulfillment of prophecy and as we know from pre Christian faith, that there is a long period of preparation paving the way for Christs first coming because accepting requires a the growth of receptivity to Truth. When Jesus began His preaching ministry, good faithful people who had spent their whole life preparing for the Messiah, couldn’t receive Him as they were too locked into the academics of it all. Jesus communicated through the heart and it was in that forum that the people were able to accept His relationship with sinners and His development of the meaning of the rules ie. when He defended the Apostles plucking grains on the Sabbath and not washing themselves ritually before eating etc.

I personally experience the mission of Pope Francis as that type of preparation. Since it was the mercy of Jesus that challenged the academic Jews its not unreasonable to think that the mercy of the Church will challenge that aspect of the current Catholic faithful.
Click to expand...
The argument appears: ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/new-vatican-document-on-jews-salvation-and-evangelization

Paragraph 8 sets it out, although Akin is withholding his opinion for the time being. It looks like the argument proceeds from the principle of invincible ignorance, except the Jews obtain the benefit of that principle despite their explicit knowledge of and rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Their salvation would nevertheless be accomplished through Jesus Christ even though they do not realize it in this life.

So there is, in reality, no dual path according to this argument. All salvation is ultimately through Jesus Christ. This would have to be as a special grace extended by Him to preserve the efficacy of the Old Covenant for Jews, as the principle of invincible ignorance as applied to the Gentiles requires no knowledge of Jesus Christ through no fault of the nonbeliever.

Interesting.
 
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