Orthodox Rebuttal of Fatima Teachings

[adgloriam]

just take the sites word for if

The quote is exact ! (Tis_Bearself reproduced it in perfect translation.)

I won’t necessarily just take the sites word for if

Pope Pious XII was ordained as Bishop on 13 de maio de 1917 the day of the first apparition…

Pope Pious XII himself left a written testimony: "I have seen the ‘miracle of the sun,’ this is the pure truth.”

The reach of the Fátima apparitions cannot be understated.

When saint John Paul II had been shot, on his way to surgery to remove the bullet, he said:“Bring me the manuscript of the third secret of Fátima”. And he read it just before he entered the surgery…He latter added:“it is my conviction the murder attempt on the 13 of May was not a coincidence.”

Jesus said he was the way to the Father

And He is! But you can ask Jesus through “intecession”. (The biblical miracle at the “Marriage at Cana” was the first public miracle Jesus performed, and it was by request hence through “intercession” of Mary.)

so how can there another door?

There is no other door except Jesus! But, as a good son, He listens with special care to His holy mother Mary and her requests.

And in face of what was to come, Jesus wanted us to appeal to Him through his mother as had happened at the “Marriage at Cana”. [All things combined in Fátima apparitions form an even broader picture…]

in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary

“Our Lady of the Rosary” is one of many so called “Invocations” of Our Lady that mark a specific devotion to her. By this, meaning simply the habitual “prayer life” through “recitation of the rosary”. And it was not by chance that Our Lady at Fátima requested a new “short prayer” to be included in the recitation of the rosary as is commonly used today…

Ó meu Jesus, perdoai-nos, livrai-nos do fogo do inferno, levai as almas todas para o céu, e socorrei principalmente as que mais precisarem".(Jaculatória ensinada por Nossa Senhora aos Pastorinhos de Fátima - Portugal - 1917).

I am in RCIA

I wish you the best and lots of fun

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, Please note that the Fatima Prayer that Mary requested be added to the Rosary at Fatima is a PRAYER TO JESUS.

“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen.”

Those who pray the Rosary after Fatima say this prayer 5 or 6 times during each Rosary.

Fatima is not All About Mary. It’s All About God and Jesus, THROUGH Mary, God’s messenger.

 

[Vico]

As a Protestant convert, I’m seeking to find the smallest possible Catholic Mary to believe in. This has led me to question apparitions. Anyways, I stumbled across this strange rebuttal to the Fatima experiences.

http://www.orthodox.org/Fatima.pdf

Pages 11-13 show his interesting reasons for denying doctrines assumed/taught by Fatima. In summary: Making religious experiences or miraculous signs the criterion of our faith opens the floodgates to every sort of demonic delusion. Fatima should be ignored because to pay attention to it leaves us open to possible demonic delusion.

Thoughts?

That document does not represent correct Catholic teachings. One example is the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion. Page 3 of that document states:

and the cult of the Sacred Heart of Jesus 6 . This latter cult focuses on one part of our Lord’s physical body and effectively separates the worship of the human nature of Christ from His Divine Nature; for this reason it has never found any acceptance in the Orthodox Church, who teaches her children to worship the Lord in His Divine-human unity, not in each of the natures separately.

Correct teaching is shown in the Catholic Encylopedia:

…the devotion is based entirely upon the symbolism of the heart. It is this symbolism that imparts to its meaning and its unity, and this symbolism is admirably completed by the representation of the Heart as wounded. Since the Heart of Jesus appears to us as the sensible sign of His love, the visible wound in the Heart will naturally recall the invisible wound of this love. This symbolism also explains that the devotion, although giving the Heart an essential place, is but little concerned with the anatomy of the heart or with physiology.

Bainvel, J. (1910). Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07163a.htm

 

[BoomerangToo]

Her constant pleading with God is the reason we haven’t been squashed like bugs. She said at one of the approved apparitions (perhaps Fatima?) that she is weary from holding her Son’s arm back from striking the world.

If you search YouTube there is a priest named Steven Scheier who died, and had a near-death experience in which he faced his judgment in front of Jesus, who condemned him for being a bad priest. Suddenly, Mary intervened and begged Jesus to spare the priest. Jesus agreed, and sent him back to his body.

When Mary says that she is our only hope, this is what she means. It should also make us realize that we are very close to chastisement.

 

[BoomerangToo]

You should realize that many Orthodox clergy as well as lay people, have a very deep, visceral antipathy for the Catholic Church. Keep that in mind when reading anything from them regarding the Catholic Church or Church history.

 

[adgloriam]

Catholic encyclopedia is dated 1910…

Our understanding of the “Sacred Heart of Jesus” has meanwhile increased.

Fátima is interwined with the devotion to the “Immaculate Heart of Our Lady”.

Sister Lúcia dos Santos, again the Fátima seer, had the “Pontevedra” apparitions between 1925-1926 and the “Tuy” apparition in 1929.

But it was “blessed Alexandrina de Balasar” on her calvary between 1918 and 1955 that allowed us to better understand…

 

[Vico]

…
Our understanding of the “Sacred Heart of Jesus” has meanwhile increased.
…

Can you give me a source so I can increase my understanding of what the Catholic Church is now newly teaching about the Sacred Heart of Jesus, that was not taught in 1910?

 

[adgloriam]

The answer to your question is beyond my knowledge!

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
HAURIETIS AQUAS
ON DEVOTION TO THE SACRED HEART
May 15, 1956
Haurietis Aquas (May 15, 1956) | PIUS XII

“First Saturday Devotion” to the Immaculate heart of Our Lady (first approved by the Bishop of Leiria a 13 de Setembro de 1939, em Fátima)

First Saturdays Devotion - Wikipedia

 

[adgloriam]

what the Catholic Church is now newly teaching

I don’t know in how far this can be considered “new”! But I do suppose both are to help us increase our understanding, they certainly helped me but I did not investigate from these points backwards in history.

 

[Vico]

The answer to your question is beyond my knowledge!

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
HAURIETIS AQUAS
ON DEVOTION TO THE SACRED HEART
May 15, 1956
Haurietis Aquas (May 15, 1956) | PIUS XII

“First Saturday Devotion” to the Immaculate heart of Our Lady (first approved by the Bishop of Leiria a 13 de Setembro de 1939, em Fátima)

First Saturdays Devotion - Wikipedia

Pope Pius XII is in agreement with the 1910 Catholic Encylopedia.

54. For these reasons, the Heart of the Incarnate Word is deservedly and rightly considered the chief sign and symbol of that threefold love with which the divine Redeemer unceasingly loves His eternal Father and all mankind.

105. It is therefore essential, at this point, in a doctrine of such importance and requiring such prudence that each one constantly hold that the truth of the natural symbol by which the physical Heart of Jesus is related to the Person of the Word, entirely depends upon the fundamental truth of the hypostatic union. Should anyone declare this to be untrue he would be reviving false opinions, more than once condemned by the Church, for they are opposed to the oneness of the Person of Christ even though the two natures are each complete and distinct.

106. Once this essential truth has been established we understand that the Heart of Jesus is the heart of a divine Person, the Word Incarnate, and by it is represented and, as it were, placed before our gaze all the love with which He has embraced and even now embraces us. Consequently, the honor to be paid to the Sacred Heart is such as to raise it to the rank - so far as external practice is concerned - of the highest expression of Christian piety. For this is the religion of Jesus which is centered on the Mediator who is man and God, and in such a way that we cannot reach the Heart of God save through the Heart of Christ, as He Himself says: “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one cometh to the Father save by Me.”(107)

 

[adgloriam]

Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with me about this Vico I’ll say the truth: at one point I stopped reading about the “Sacred Heart of Jesus” out of simple isolation. So it’s really good we are talking about it, because I feel a renewed interest and energy to continue studying this precious subject Thanks sincerely

You are a Byzantine Catholic? First time I’ve talked to a person of a “sui iuris” cahtolic church. I only knew about the “patriarcal churches”, fascinating!!!

 

[JamalChristophr]

I still need to read through this thread, but I’m most interested in your motivations and thoughts and why Marian apparitions matter to you. You say that you wish to embrace the Catholic Faith but want to find the most bare bones Catholicism. That’s fine. So why don’t you leave Marian apparitions aside.

It’s funny, at Lourdes and Fatima, I think they both were accused of being diiabolical at the beginning. In my mind, this is as far from the truth as anything could ever be, but that’s my interior sense. The Powers that be in the Vatican have proclaimed it worthy of belief, so you could at least give them the benefit of the doubt it seems to me, or look into why they came to that conclusion. Blessings !!

 

[JamalChristophr]

I think there are books by Scott Hahn and others like Sheen and Benedict XVI that will focus on the Mary of the Bible only. If the “smallest Mary” is what you’re seeking, that is. But Mary can never be small for Catholics, you know, she is the Mother of God and has always been loved greatly by the church since 30 AD up to now.

 

[adgloriam]

I’m seeking to find the smallest possible Catholic Mary to believe in

The “smallest possible Catholic Mary” should be same for us both: the Mary in the Gospels that sings the “Magnificat”.

But, if you really want “the smallest possible” regarding “Marian apparitions” it would be:

Jo 19:26. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Jo 19:27. Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

The words of Our Lord on the cross.

Rev 12:1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun,

The catholic church identifies in this Mary

 

[pnewton]

I can sympathize with the initial request of the OP. I think the Catholic Church in her universality makes room for those who draw strength from Marian apparitions and those who find these difficult to incorporate into their spirituality, which is why they are not mandatory. I am glad at least one poster decided to forego condemnation in favor of a direct answer.

I would add, for Campion, to accept the reverse, that many are drawn to Jesus by these apparitions, these words of the Virgin, and even the hyperbole around her, while understanding they are totally unnecessary for the Catholic faith. The smallest Mary, as you put it, can be found in the Catechism. Moreover, it can be found in examining the most literal definition of the titles of Mary. For example, she is the Mother of God because she is the mother of Jesus, who we recognize as divine from her inception. She is immaculately conceived because of a grace that was given her (undeserved favor) by God to a mortal girl so as to be a fit vessel for His son.

 

[po18guy]

You are far better advised to avoid the universe of anti-Catholic bilge on the web and focus solely on that which defends the faith using reason. Despite any lingering difficulties that you may have, the Church does not make things up - neither does she require that you believe in any apparition. Neither does she require that you offer a single Rosary.

The Church has studied and tested each and every one of the various claimed apparitions for extensive periods of time. If there is even a single tiny point that is at odds with the deposit of faith, the entire apparition is discarded.

Give yourself time to ponder the role of Mary, just as she pondered everything in her heart. If you are from one of the “ME and Jesus” denominations, this may take some time. If you were more mainline Protestant, it will come naturally.

As to the Mother of all the faithful (Rev. 12:17), have a look at this very revealing video:

 

[po18guy]

JamalChristophr
think there are books by Scott Hahn and others like Sheen and Benedict
XVI that will focus on the Mary of the Bible only. If the “smallest
Mary” is what you’re seeking, that is. But Mary can never be small for
Catholics, you know, she is the Mother of God and has always been loved
greatly bu the church since 30 AD up to now.

Indeed! Our Lord did not look for the smallest mother that He could create for Himself. He, being the Word made Flesh, designed and created the most perfect mother ever to exist. Since our Lord honored her, and sits in judgment of us, we are well advised to honor what He honors.

For the OP: At a criminal trial, would you insult or belittle your defense attorney’s mother?

 

[rcwitness]

Because Mary is more patient than God?

Im not very compelled to delve into Fatima because it has never inspired me. But it could be me.

The miracles dont resemble the miracles of the New Testament. And messages seem glory seeking of for the Mother of our Lord.

Gloria Polo shares a story that moved me quite a lot more than Fatima

 

[JamalChristophr]

All she said was repent and pray. What’s so hard about that.

 

[AlNg]

The Church has studied and tested each and every one of the various claimed apparitions for extensive periods of time.

We are not required to believe any apparitions, however the fact that it has been thoroughly investigated and approved by the church should give you peace about Fatima and those who do believe it.

But the apparition says that the sun danced in the sky. If the investigation was thorough as you say it was, can you name one single astronomer or scientist outside of Portugal who can verify that the sun was dancing around in the sky?