Orthodox Rebuttal of Fatima Teachings

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I’m almost certain she was at least 5 '1" . -smaller than that seems very doubtful to me. 🤔
 
The vision of the Sun was seen by pope Pious XII in Rome. It was seen in Portugal, by scientists, medical doctors, atheists, peasants, even the unbelieving witnessed to it. 50 miles away people saw it.

It was, a “miracle” in form of a vision, and the vision was given to many…

Then, started a time of turmoil and the church could take no official position on it!!! So, those who was it saw it and gave witness to it.

It is said, many saw it abroad, at impossible distances. They gave their witness to the fact, and those witnesses are dispersed since they were not needed.

Those given the privilege to see, saw, and gave their witness.
 
She is super small, though, you know. Her profound humility is why Lucifer abhors, fears, and dreads her so much.
 
Mintaka said:
Back into the fray. Apparently his real beef is that Orthodox wanted to pray the Rosary in order that Russia would be converted from atheism and Communism defeated. He decides that it’s really… an evil plot! To convert Orthodox into evil evil Catholics!
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I think you hit the nail on the head here. Honestly, you just pointing out the conspiratorial bent makes me feel really dumb for having posted this.
Kaliaa said:
Searching for the truth should lead you to prayer about this subject. Ask her Son to help you see the truth about His mother and approach your prayer with an open heart rather than one searching for ways to avoid it.
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I’ve been converting since September, and I still have yet to pray to Mary or any of the Saints. I have this fear of doing it. Whenever I try to tackle this problem head on I start trying to find excuses. I’ll try to be open minded.
adgloriam said:
At Fátima there was “the miracle of the sun” with tens of thousands of eye witnesses, correctly predicted in advance by the children.
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This isn’t the issue. I’ve come across Protestants who claim it was demonic. This scares me a lot because everyone I know is Protestant, and I have a feeling most of them would eventually resort to saying this when cornered. It’s hard going against your family and friends.
De_Maria said:
Is there anything that you could say or do which would be greater praise to Mary than that which God already did?
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If the coronation was obvious to a Protestant we wouldn’t have this problem. I do appreciate you pointing out how God praised Mary through His messenger. I never thought of it that way!
Vico said:
Bainvel, J. (1910). Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07163a.htm
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Thank you so much for pointing this out! I was honestly so confused about the Sacred Heart of Jesus…nobody ever explained it to me. I don’t know why I never looked it up.

There’s a lot of great responses here guys. Thank you! I’m still struggling with accepting this idea that Mary is communicating regularly to the world, but I’m getting there. The more I study this the harder it is to deny these things happened.
 
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CampionTheChampion said:
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adgloriam:
At Fátima there was “the miracle of the sun” with tens of thousands of eye witnesses, correctly predicted in advance by the children.
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This isn’t the issue. I’ve come across Protestants who claim it was demonic. This scares me a lot because everyone I know is Protestant, and I have a feeling most of them would eventually resort to saying this when cornered. It’s hard going against your family and friends.
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Good argument!!! I’ll have to think about that…I’ll get back to you on that.
 
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Tens of thousands of eyewitnesses. And remember not to think like a human (with our limited understanding) when things of God are spoken of. But, for those who demand proof:
Dr. Jose Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal, reported something similar,
“During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there
were also changes of colour in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I
noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the
nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the
horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around
me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both
near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask.
People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a
sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My
own hand was the same color.”
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adgloriam said:
It is said, many saw it abroad, at impossible distances. They gave their witness to the fact, and those witnesses are dispersed since they were not needed.
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Can you name one astronomer outside of Portugal who saw the sun dancing around in the sky? It is a physical impossibility contrary to all laws of planetary motion. I would like to see one single scientific account outside of Portugal of any unusual solar or astronomical activity during the time the sun was reported to have been dancing around in the sky.
 
adgloriam said:
Good argument!!! I’ll have to think about that…I’ll get back to you on that.
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The argument boils down to the acknowledgment of a possibility. Then prudence follows. If it is possible that the apparitions were demonic, then we should ignore them to be safe.

I feel like I should accept demonic activity as a possibility because my friends think it’s possible. My friends are sometimes right when I’m wrong. Let me know if you come up with a good response 😃
 
It’s possible that you are a space alien, too. How do we know you’re one of the good guys or not??
 
AlNg said:
Can you name one astronomer outside of Portugal who saw the sun dancing around in the sky? It is a physical impossibility contrary to all laws of planetary motion. I would like to see one single scientific account outside of Portugal of any unusual solar or astronomical activity during the time the sun was reported to have been dancing around in the sky.
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Dude, be realistic. Just because it’s called the miracle of the sun doesn’t mean the sun actually danced. It was a vision or localized event with 50,000 witnesses.
 
CampionTheChampion said:
…

There’s a lot of great responses here guys. Thank you! I’m still struggling with accepting this idea that Mary is communicating regularly to the world, but I’m getting there. The more I study this the harder it is to deny these things happened.
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Also, for the Immaculate Heart of Mary, from Catholic Encyclopedia:
…at the foot of the Cross that the Christian heart first made the acquaintance of the Heart of Mary. Simeon’s prophecy paved the way and furnished the devotion with one of its favourite formulae and most popular representations: the heart pierced with a sword. But Mary was not merely passive at the foot of the Cross; “she cooperated through charity”, as St. Augustine says, “in the work of our redemption”.

Another Scriptural passage to help in bringing out the devotion was the twice-repeated saying of St. Luke, that Mary kept all the sayings and doings of Jesus in her heart, that there she might ponder over them and live by them.
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Bainvel, J. (1910). Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07168a.htm
 
JamalChristophr said:
You say that you wish to embrace the Catholic Faith but want to find the most bare bones Catholicism. That’s fine. So why don’t you leave Marian apparitions aside.
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This is more or less what I suggested also, many posts ago. Since belief in Marian apparitions is not required for being a Catholic, I do not understand the amount of energy some put into trying to disprove them or question them. Although a lot of Catholics are “into” Marian devotion (and rightly so in my mind, I am one of such Catholics), there are other Catholics who are more “into” other things such as Jesus devotions, Bible study, or lay movements that do not revolve around Mary. This is not because they are “minimizing” Mary but simply they have picked a different focus that they find helpful. Someone who wished to look at apparitions but was not comfortable with the Mary ones could even choose to look at Jesus apparitions instead, as there are many of those.
It’s funny, at Lourdes and Fatima, I think they both were accused of being diiabolical at the beginning. In my mind, this is as far from the truth as anything could ever be, but that’s my interior sense. The Powers that be in the Vatican have proclaimed it worthy of belief, so you could at least give them the benefit of the doubt it seems to me, or look into why they came to that conclusion. Blessings !!
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According to Sister Lucia’s memoirs, when she was a child seeing the monthly apparitions, many people in her town thought they might be diabolical, and Lucia became so worried about this that she considered not going to the apparition site at the appointed time. I think at the last minute her little cousins talked her out of this and got her to come along, and somehow she was able to set her mind at rest about it.

It may be that the OP was not aware that the Vatican does so much investigation into the apparitions that it endorses, to make sure that such things are not demonic, and that the whole business is not a result of natural phenomena or mental illness, etc. But now that they are aware I agree with you about giving the benefit of the doubt. Especially since again, this is not something in which OP or any other Catholic is being forced to believe. I cannot understand why anyone would NOT want to believe it given that multiple Popes have clearly believed it, including a Pope who is now a saint; I would not be putting my judgment ahead of a sainted Pope on a spiritual matter myself. But the fact remains, you are not required as a Catholic to believe it, so if you don’t like it or don’t find it helpful, you are free to just ignore it while letting other Catholics do as they wish.
 
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Hey Vico, I wanted to ask you for a link to a document about the position of the “orthodox catholics” on marian apparitions (ok, there are several “orthodox catholic churches” so I suppose they may have different and even opposing positions). Just something you find representative and current.

I was confused by the original document linked in this thread by the OP because I had thought the Coptic church recognized the apparitions in Egypt and just recently there had been another recognized apparition (in these times of turmoil). I also rather enjoyed some of the original document, although I didn’t appreciate the least the “poltergeist” comparison.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
(Should we start a new thread if this is getting too far away from OP’s topic? )
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I’m quite confident the OP is liberal about our chat 🙂 But yes definitely, let’s start a new thread, the question of the title remains:“Marian apparitions + and…???” Let’s have a vote folks!

I am enjoying myself quite a lot on this thread 🤩
Tis_Bearself said:
Where was this at? I know about the Egypt one…
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There was a series from 1968 to 1970 and another from 2000 to 2001 and again in 2009. But I had read somewhere of a new apparition around 2013 just before ISIS…Anyway, one should be very careful in these matters, and I have yet to understand in how far a roman catholic should trust a coptic church approval (which raises the same feeling the orthodox probably hold towards marian apparitions approved by the roman cahtolic church…) At the time I left it at that, because I didn’t know any orthodox…And, additionally I’m quite weary of the Medugorje (unapproved) events…
 
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adgloriam said:
Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with me about this Vico 🙂 I’ll say the truth: at one point I stopped reading about the “Sacred Heart of Jesus” out of simple isolation. So it’s really good we are talking about it, because I feel a renewed interest and energy to continue studying this precious subject 😃 Thanks sincerely

You are a Byzantine Catholic? First time I’ve talked to a person of a “sui iuris” cahtolic church. I only knew about the “patriarcal churches”, fascinating!!!
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In the icon of Extreme Humility and also the icon of the Burial of Christ, we see the chest wound of Christ, from the piercing on the Cross. We have the icon of Simeon’s Prophecy (Luke 2 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed).

These patriarchs?

Constantinopolitan
  • Melkite Patriarch Youssef Absi
Alexandrian
  • Coptic Patriarch Ibrahim Isaac Sedrak
Antiochene
  • Maronite Patriarch Béchara Pierre Raï
  • Syriac Patriarch Ignace Youssif III Younan
Armenian
  • Armenian Patriarch Grégoire Pierre XX Ghabroyan
Chaldean
  • Chaldean Patriarch Louis Raphaël I Sako
 
adgloriam said:
Hey Vico, I wanted to ask you for a link to a document about the position of the “orthodox catholics” on marian apparitions (ok, there are several “orthodox catholic churches” so I suppose they may have different and even opposing positions). Just something you find representative and current.

I was confused by the original document linked in this thread by the OP because I had thought the Coptic church recognized the apparitions in Egypt and just recently there had been another recognized apparition (in these times of turmoil). I also rather enjoyed some of the original document, although I didn’t appreciate the least the “poltergeist” comparison.
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I don’t know of a particular document for eastern Catholic, but the Eparchy of Parma (Byzantine Catholic Church) this year, made the Eight-Day Pilgrimage to Portugal & Retreat at the Byzantine Catholic Chapel in Fatima With Bishop Milan Lach, SJ Oct. 26-Nov. 2, 2017.
 
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