Orthodox to Catholic

[Hesychios]

… the problem is that in the Byzantine way of thinking even to not fast at all is NOT sinful…now it isn’t good for you but it is NOT sinful.
…

I thoought that this might be nice to insert into the discussion at this point.

St John Chrysostom’s Homily on Pascha

If any be a devout lover of God,
Let him partake with gladness from this fair and radiant feast.
If any be a faithful servant,
Let him enter rejoicing into the joy of his Lord.
If any have wearied himself with fasting,
Let him now enjoy his reward.
If any have laboured from the first hour,
Let him receive today his rightful due.
If any have come after the third,
Let him celebrate the feast with thankfulness.
If any have come after the sixth,
Let him not be in doubt, for he will suffer no loss.
If any have delayed until the ninth,
Let him not hesitate but draw near.
If any have arrived only at the eleventh,
Let him not be afraid because he comes so late.
For the Master is generous and accepts the last even as the first.
He gives rest to him who comes at the eleventh hour
in the same was as him who has laboured from the first.
He accepts the deed, and commends the intention.
Enter then, all of you, into the joy of our Lord.
First and last, receive alike your reward.
Rich and poor, dance together.
You who fasted and you who have not fasted, rejoice together.
The table is fully laden: let all enjoy it.
The calf is fatted: let none go away hungry.
Let none lament his poverty;
For the universal Kingdom is revealed.
Let none bewail his transgressions;
For the light of forgiveness has risen from the tomb.
Let none fear death;
For death of the Saviour has set us free.
He has destroyed death by undergoing death.
He has despoiled hell by descending into hell.
He vexed it even as it tasted of His flesh.
Isaiah foretold this when he cried:
Hell was filled with bitterness when it met Thee face to face below;
Filled with bitterness, for it was brought to nothing;
Filled with bitterness, for it was mocked;
Filled with bitterness, for it was overthrown;
Filled with bitterness, for it was put in chains.
Hell received a body, and encountered God. It received earth, and confronted heaven.
O death, where is your sting?
O hell, where is your victory?
Christ is risen! And you, o death, are annihilated!
Christ is risen! And the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is risen! And the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen! And life is liberated!
Christ is risen! And the tomb is emptied of its dead;
For Christ having risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
To Him be Glory and Power, now and forever, and from all ages to all ages.
Amen!

 

[Formosus]

It’s a reasonable assumption, though - they’re following Latin praxis by setting bare minima, so one would assume that these minima are to be followed on pain of mortal sin as they are in the West.

Then that just proves my point that this is a latinization and that in authentic orthodox praxis it is not sinful to not fast.

 

[Madaglan]

Cecilianus the problem is that in the Byzantine way of thinking even to not fast at all is NOT sinful…now it isn’t good for you but it is NOT sinful.

Now in the West to not follow the minimum fasting set down in law IS sinful, so I’m sure you can see why I call that a Latinization…it is a totally different way of thinking…and MOST of the Byzantine bishops in the US think like Latins…which IMHO stinks.

There is a story told of St. Seraphim of Sarov, about a mother who came to him and asked for advice on what kind of man her young daughter should marry. St. Seraphim responded, the man must keep the fasts, for if he does not, he is not a true Christian, even if he considers himself one.

Everyone ought to strive to fully keep the fast. If, out of weakness and without due reason, one breaks the fast, one probably ought to confess the sin to one’s priest, or first seek counsel regarding it. Yet, one also should not beat oneself over it as if it were a “legal” transgression. Fasting is part of the process of healing, and minor setbacks are not unexpected.

Many persons have medical conditions or living arrangements that make it very difficult to keep the strict fast entirely. In these cases it’s best to speak with your spiritual father or priest about how to best live the fast while attending to medical and other personal needs.

 

[wjp984]

If you are in the United States, even if you are cannonically Byzantine Catholic, it really is not much more of an inconvenience to follow the Byzantine obligations. They are really laxed here for most rites, melkites excluded. But if you are Melkite, my guess is it is not under pain of sin.

Is it really that hard to include Wednesdays as a no meat day in addition to Fridays during Lent? Is it really that hard to go two days of the year without meat or dairy? Is it really that difficult to attend Church on the Theophany/Epiphany, Ascension, Dormition/Assumption, feast of Saints Peter and Paul, and Christmas?

If you are Roman Catholic you have All Saints Day, Immacuate Conception, January 1, Assumption, and Christmas, and I may even be leaving some out.

So my point is that feel free to worship in whichever church or rite you desire, but if you are Byzantine Catholic, it might be nice to keep a little bit of that with you because it’s not that hard to do so in the United States.

 

[ciero]

If you are in the United States, even if you are cannonically Byzantine Catholic, it really is not much more of an inconvenience to follow the Byzantine obligations. They are really laxed here for most rites, melkites excluded. But if you are Melkite, my guess is it is not under pain of sin.

Is it really that hard to include Wednesdays as a no meat day in addition to Fridays during Lent? Is it really that hard to go two days of the year without meat or dairy? Is it really that difficult to attend Church on the Theophany/Epiphany, Ascension, Dormition/Assumption, feast of Saints Peter and Paul, and Christmas?

If you are Roman Catholic you have All Saints Day, Immacuate Conception, January 1, Assumption, and Christmas, and I may even be leaving some out.

So my point is that feel free to worship in whichever church or rite you desire, but if you are Byzantine Catholic, it might be nice to keep a little bit of that with you because it’s not that hard to do so in the United States.

So you think its a good thing to water down the traditions?

 

[wjp984]

I’m not sure where in my post you got that impression from what I stated. I simply said that if you are Canonically Byzantine Catholic but worship in a Roman Rite Church, it is not really any more difficult to follow the obligations of the East in the United States, so why not do so?

But to answer your question, if it is under penalty of sin, then yes, it needs to be watered down to a minimum standard.

That being said, if the eparchies would like to make it clear that there is no penalty of sin, but one should do as much as they can, then I am all for that and then I think more people would be willing to do more, especially if it is encouraged. However, it’s just too much of an obligaton to require more under penalty of sin.

 

[Cecilianus]

But to answer your question, if it is under penalty of sin, then yes, it needs to be watered down to a minimum standard.

That being said, if the eparchies would like to make it clear that there is no penalty of sin, but one should do as much as they can, then I am all for that and then I think more people would be willing to do more, especially if it is encouraged. However, it’s just too much of an obligaton to require more under penalty of sin.

Whether it is under penalty of sin is the question at issue - it seems to be the case though it’s not entirely clear (I’m not entirely sure of it).

 

[new_abc123]

Normally Orthodox Christians don’t need to do anything special- if you were baptized and Chrismated I think becoming Catholic only requires a confession of Faith.

Does anyone know if this also applies to Oriental Orthodox Christians if they want to become Catholic?

 

[Amadeus]

Does anyone know if this also applies to Oriental Orthodox Christians if they want to become Catholic?

If I recall it right, our brother mardukm translated from Coptic Orthodoxy to Coptic Catholicism by “mere” confession of faith.

 

[Aramis]

Even the minimum fasting regulations are not strict legal obligations that must be upheld on the pain of sin . Fasting is meant to help the Christian advance spiritually, not condemn them to hell for not doing it. Your view of fasting is reminiscent of Latin legalism.

Still, the Ruthenian bishops post the minimums as obligation upon the Ruthenian faithful who are elligible to receive Communion.

Not in a latin sense, but in the sense of “This is the minimum needed to be worthy of receiving Him.”