Orthodoxy makes the most sence. protestantism is just man made division. the question is latin or eastern Church?

[Mickey]

I will refrain from making commentaries as it is the season of Lent.

So kind of you.

Yes, NFP is used to avoid pregnancy (no sex) but unlike other forms of contraceptives (such as artificial contraceptives) there is no “spilling of the seed”

Wrong. It is taught to use this method for intercourse during infertile periods using temperature and mucous analysis. It is contraception.

And if NFP is more efficient than condoms and does not violate God’s laws (morally permissible), then why use articificial contraceptives (which require you to waste your seed)?

As I have stated earlier, (I guess you didn’t read it), NFP is a contraceptive method which entails spilling of the seed during infertile periods.

I have not heard of such a study (can you provide the source),

The pope did not get into the specific question of whether in certain circumstances condom use was morally licit or illicit in AIDS prevention, an issue that is still under study by Vatican theologians.

The pope sees condom campaigns as a question of cultural violence, especially in Africa, where there has never been a “contraceptive mentality,” Father Faggioni said.

The question of whether condom use in some circumstances may be morally acceptable is a separate and more difficult question, Father Faggioni told Catholic News Service.

Another source said that after looking more closely at the question, the church experts decided it was premature for the Vatican to make a comprehensive statement on the theological and pastoral aspects of condom use, in part because there was not unanimity of opinion, and in part because many believed that discussion of the theological nuances would only invite confusion in the media and among Catholics.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0901232.htm

 

[Mickey]

the annulment process does not negate the sacrament of marriage because in order for it to be a valid marriage, it must be participated by willing partners of honest demeanor with full faculty of mind.

Corbin!

For example, if the person whom I love does not tell me that he has a huge debt to pay because of a gambling problem he has prior to our marriage, and I only find out after the fact, then I have a right to annul the marriage which took place because of his dishonesty, i.e. he invalidates his wedding vows.

So…dishonesty is a valid reason for the RC divorce?

 

[wynd]

Since I am neither Orthodox nor Catholic and I don’t believe that you need to be a member in order to know the history of either church, (history is my favorite subject) why should a person convert to either or? With my knowledge over the few years I have lived I have read about and read many problems about the Catholic church enough to NOT want to convert, and I have also heard a good share of negative about Protestants too. I just can not make up my mind and I need some good help/advice.

The only reason you should convert to either church is because you believe what it teaches is true. Which has kept the traditions, beliefs, practices of the apostles?

 

[Hesychios]

To Hesychios & gurneyhalleck1,

Hesychios - you seem to be comfortable with the Orhtodox faith and Gurney - you seem to have the same feeling about the RCC. I am thinking about converting to the RCC and I have already began emailing back and forth with my local Catholic Priest.

I am a Protestant (strange how whenever I mention “Protestant” on Catholic.com. I get the feeling like I am saying “bomb” at an airport…).

Since I am neither Orthodox nor Catholic and I don’t believe that you need to be a member in order to know the history of either church, (history is my favorite subject) why should a person convert to either or? With my knowledge over the few years I have lived I have read about and read many problems about the Catholic church enough to NOT want to convert, and I have also heard a good share of negative about Protestants too. I just can not make up my mind and I need some good help/advice.

I am not attacking anyone or any church. I would just like some more answers.

I am ordering the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I own The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know about the Orthodox Church" but I have some problems with the latter.

btw~ I am not a baptist or an evangelical. There are so many different Protestants out there, just don’t think of me as “crazy” …and my brother in law is Orthodox and I have thought about going down that route…

t_t

I commend you for your interest, and I think that you are in the right place to ask questions about the Latin Catholic church. I recommend that you peruse the Traditional Catholic section, and the Apologetics section here as well.

In fact, talking to the Catholic priest (which you have begun to do) is even better!

If you do have direct questions in the context of this thread which can be answered by both Latin Catholics and Orthodox that would be great, I and others can respond as necessary.

I think that if you have questions specifically about Holy Orthodoxy, the best approach would be to go to an Orthodox website, like OCnet, Monachos or Ancient Faith radio and see what they have to say about it themselves. You could also contact a priest at some point if the spirit moves you. I am not shutting you out, I just feel that this approach is far fairer (and more ethical) than me making a pitch for my church on CAF’s bandwidth.

I think that you already know we two churches (Orthodox and Latin Catholic) are close in many ways.

I am moved to recall something I was told many years ago as a young man: “any move in the right direction is a good move”! Of course, that was in another context but I think it may apply in your case.

The important thing is, you are thinking about this. Whether you chose the one church or the other, I feel it will be better for you than staying where you have been, and we will rejoice.

You will be in our prayers.

 

[Madaglan]

To Hesychios & gurneyhalleck1,

Hesychios - you seem to be comfortable with the Orhtodox faith and Gurney - you seem to have the same feeling about the RCC. I am thinking about converting to the RCC and I have already began emailing back and forth with my local Catholic Priest.

I am a Protestant (strange how whenever I mention “Protestant” on Catholic.com. I get the feeling like I am saying “bomb” at an airport…).

Since I am neither Orthodox nor Catholic and I don’t believe that you need to be a member in order to know the history of either church, (history is my favorite subject) why should a person convert to either or? With my knowledge over the few years I have lived I have read about and read many problems about the Catholic church enough to NOT want to convert, and I have also heard a good share of negative about Protestants too. I just can not make up my mind and I need some good help/advice.

I am not attacking anyone or any church. I would just like some more answers.

I am ordering the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I own The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know about the Orthodox Church" but I have some problems with the latter.

btw~ I am not a baptist or an evangelical. There are so many different Protestants out there, just don’t think of me as “crazy” …and my brother in law is Orthodox and I have thought about going down that route…

t_t

Perhaps you can go to both Catholic Mass and Orthodox Divine Liturgy for a period of time and get a feeling for both. A good book that I just finished, which you might find interesting (since it deals in part with history), is You Are Peter, by Oliver Clement.

 

[AMDGtoo]

So…dishonesty is a valid reason for the RC divorce?

Um–there is no such “animal” as RC divorce. There is a Decree of Nullity, in which, after investigation, it is determined that there was no valid vow to God concerning marriage. (There are impediments to a valid marriage vow and it seems that the Bible mentioned that that is so.)

And for that matter, there is no such thing as RC (Roman Church). The official title is Catholic Church. The Catholic Church comprises 22 Rites–only one is “Roman”, while the others are “Eastern”. The term “Roman” was originated as a Protestant insult, which the Church (IMO wisely since it seems to have worked) embraced as a way to take away the sting. (Of course, maybe you are referring to the Roman–(Latin or Western–Rite afterall, since that at least exists.)

 

[josie_L]

.
Wrong. It is taught to use this method for intercourse during infertile periods using temperature and mucous analysis. It is contraception.

I never denied that NFP is a contraceptive but it is morally permissible because you simply abstain from sex during the FERTILE period (about five days).

As I have stated earlier, (I guess you didn’t read it), NFP is a contraceptive method which entails spilling of the seed during infertile periods.

“Spilling of the seed” means to ejaculate outside of the woman or prevent the seed from being injected in the woman, and NFP (during the infertile periods) neither teaches nor allows such a thing. NFP simply involves calculating when your fertile period is so you can avoid sex (and again the reasons need to be serious for you to be practicing NFP). Artificial contraceptives whenever they are used prevents the seed from being injected into the woman (and we know this is bad because of the account of Onan in the Bible), i.e., you are committing a sin (this is why masturbation is wrong as well).

The pope did not get into the specific question of whether in certain circumstances condom use was morally licit or illicit in AIDS prevention, an issue that is still under study by Vatican theologians.

The pope sees condom campaigns as a question of cultural violence, especially in Africa, where there has never been a “contraceptive mentality,” Father Faggioni said.

The question of whether condom use in some circumstances may be morally acceptable is a separate and more difficult question, Father Faggioni told Catholic News Service.

Another source said that after looking more closely at the question, the church experts decided it was premature for the Vatican to make a comprehensive statement on the theological and pastoral aspects of condom use, in part because there was not unanimity of opinion, and in part because many believed that discussion of the theological nuances would only invite confusion in the media and among Catholics.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0901232.htm

This theological discussion has been around for years now, but Pope Benedict has not budged on the issue of allowing condoms if one married partner is affected with HIV. This is because the studies that are coming out state that condom use is not fully safe (there is a chance that one can still get infected even if one has sex with a condom).

 

[Mickey]

I never denied that NFP is a contraceptive

I know.

because you simply abstain from sex during the FERTILE period (about five days).

And have intercourse duting infertile periods. Contraception.

“Spilling of the seed” means to ejaculate outside of the woman or prevent the seed from being injected in the woman, and NFP (during the infertile periods) neither teaches nor allows such a thing.

Since NFP is more effective than condoms, it seems that NFP may be more guilty of Onanism.

"NFP simply involves calculating when your fertile period is so you can avoid sex (and again the reasons need to be serious for you to be practicing NFP).

I know about NFP–it is called the sympto-thermal method.

"Artificial contraceptives whenever they are used prevents the seed from being injected into the woman

NFP is more effective in preventing conception!

This theological discussion has been around for years now, but Pope Benedict has not budged on the issue of allowing condoms if one married partner is affected with HIV.

As we know, there are many clergy (including bishops) and the majority of Catholic laity who disagree with the pontiff of Rome on this issue. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the subject is still under study–which would mean that Rome may still allow limited condom use for extra-ordinary circumstances. That would put Rome right in line with Holy Orthodoxy.

This is because the studies that are coming out state that condom use is not fully safe (there is a chance that one can still get infected even if one has sex with a condom).

Oh contrare dear josie! There are many more studies that show the opposite of which you have stated here.

 

[Mickey]

There is a Decree of Nullity, in which, after investigation, it is determined that there was no valid vow to God concerning marriage. (There are impediments to a valid marriage vow and it seems that the Bible mentioned that that is so.)

Yeah I know–the retroactive erasure of the sacrament of marriage due to legalistic proceedings. Corban!

And for that matter, there is no such thing as RC (Roman Church).

Yes there is. I called myself Roman Catholic for more than 38 years–so did my parents relatives, friends, etc…

The title, “Roman Catholic Church” is printed on Church signs of Roman Catholic Churches all over the country.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hey Micky,

I have my own opinions about NFP and I’ll keep them personal. But I think the Catholic argument is that NFP is not contraceptive because it doesn’t actively go ‘against’ conception. By having intercourse during infertile periods, the husband and wife are not actively fighting conception, going against it. With condoms or the pill, there is an active agent fighting off fertility, frustrating the natural cycle, making it so the couple cannot conceive. With NFP there is a lack of fertility, not a frustrative anti force. Contra = against. That’s my take anyway. Like I said, whether I believe in or like NFP I’ll keep to myself. That’s just my understanding of the Catholic belief in it.

Hope you’re having a good Lent. You’re in my prayers!
Scott

I know.

And have intercourse duting infertile periods. Contraception.

Since NFP is more effective than condoms, it seems that NFP may be more guilty of Onanism.

I know about NFP–it is called the sympto-thermal method.

NFP is more effective in preventing conception!
As we know, there are many clergy (including bishops) and the majority of Catholic laity who disagree with the pontiff of Rome on this issue. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the subject is still under study–which would mean that Rome may still allow limited condom use for extra-ordinary circumstances. That would put Rome right in line with Holy Orthodoxy.
Oh contrare dear josie! There are many more studies that show the opposite of which you have stated here.

 

[Mickey]

Hey Micky,

I have my own opinions about NFP and I’ll keep them personal. But I think the Catholic argument is that NFP is not contraceptive because it doesn’t actively go ‘against’ conception. By having intercourse during infertile periods, the husband and wife are not actively fighting conception, going against it. With condoms or the pill, there is an active agent fighting off fertility, frustrating the natural cycle, making it so the couple cannot conceive. With NFP there is a lack of fertility, not a frustrative anti force. Contra = against. That’s my take anyway. Like I said, whether I believe in or like NFP I’ll keep to myself. That’s just my understanding of the Catholic belief in it.

Hope you’re having a good Lent. You’re in my prayers!

Hi Scott,

Yes. I understand the thinking behind NFP. My wife and I took the classes when we were Roman Catholics. But you see, it is more effective than most other methods of contraception. It is (in my view) going against conception–by having intercourse when you kmow that it is about 99% sure you will not conceive. And don’t get me wrong, Holy Orthodoxy approves of that method. But I foresee the day when Rome also approves of limited condom use for extra-ordinary circumstances (such as one spouse has AIDS).

Over the years, I have seen many times, Catholics get frustrated and immediately start throwing the birth control/divorce stones–in an attempt to denigrate the Holy Orthodox Church. It saddens me.

I lit candles for you Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at Church.
We are in Church five days per week during Lent.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I hear you, friend. My wife and I went through the NFP hoops and hurdles as well. I have my own opinions of it and trust me, I’m not hurling those stones!

You guys go to Church five days per week at Lent! Wow! What do you do each night? Is it fellowship or liturgy/worship? I know Orthodox don’t pray Stations of the Cross so what is an example of a Lenten devotion for Orthodox?

Thanks for those prayers. I need 'em dude! lol Don’t we all!

I don’t know if the Holy See will ever change the b.c. policy. But I do know that they know most people use it anyway. And according to most of the priests I know, they turn a blind eye to it and there’s a de facto acceptance of the reality “out in the field” so my priest calls it.

Scott

Hi Scott,

Yes. I understand the thinking behind NFP. My wife and I took the classes when we were Roman Catholics. But you see, it is more effective than most other methods of contraception. It is (in my view) going against conception–by having intercourse when you kmow that it is about 99% sure you will not conceive. And don’t get me wrong, Holy Orthodoxy approves of that method. But I foresee the day when Rome also approves of limited condom use for extra-ordinary circumstances (such as one spouse has AIDS).

Over the years, I have seen many times, Catholics get frustrated and immediately start throwing the birth control/divorce stones–in an attempt to denigrate the Holy Orthodox Church. It saddens me.

I lit candles for you Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at Church.
We are in Church five days per week during Lent.

 

[AMDGtoo]

I called myself Roman Catholic for more than 38 years–so did my parents relatives, friends, etc…

That doesn’t mean you were correct.

As I said the official name of the Church is the Catholic Church. It consists of 22 Rites–one of those Rites is the Roman Rite. But it is only a Rite and even though the other Rites may be Byzantine, or …and they say that they “in union with the Bishop of Rome”, they are in fact separate Rites of the Catholic Church and I suppose, if I were them, that I might take offense at being referred to as if I wasn’t a separate Rite (having a language and liturgy all of their own–they celebrate the Divine Liturgy you must know.)

Maybe this will help some:

douglawrence.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/when-did-people-start-calling-the-catholic-church-roman/

The title, “Roman Catholic Church” is printed on Church signs of Roman Catholic Churches all over the country.

Did say that the Catholic Church toke the insult and embraced it so as to take the sting out of it. Of course that’s the Latin or Roman Rite. You won’t see that with the 21 other Eastern Catholic Rites.

 

[Mickey]

You guys go to Church five days per week at Lent! Wow! What do you do each night? Is it fellowship or liturgy/worship? I know Orthodox don’t pray Stations of the Cross so what is an example of a Lenten devotion for Orthodox?

Monday eve = Great Compline (prayer service)(about one hour)

Wed eve = Liturgy of the Presanctified gifts (about 1 hour 30 minutes) followed by Bible study and lenten meal to break the Eucharistic fast.

Friday eve = Small Compline with Akathist to the Most Holy Mother of God (1 hour)

Saturday eve = Great Vespers (about 1 hour)

Sunday = Divine Liturgy ( about 1 hour 45 minutes) followed by coffee and fellowship.

And there is Holy Week! We are in Church every day for hours. I usually take vacation days from work. It’s great!

And according to most of the priests I know, they turn a blind eye to it and there’s a de facto acceptance of the reality “out in the field” so my priest calls it.

Yes. This was my experience also when I was in communion with Rome.

Blessings to you!

 

[josie_L]

And have intercourse duting infertile periods. Contraception.

Don’t you think this is rather redundant.

Since NFP is more effective than condoms, it seems that NFP may be more guilty of Onanism.

Your still not getting it, NFP is morally permissible because it does not obstruct the act, i.e., you are not wasting your seed by deliberately ejaculating outside of the woman and/or preventing it from being released inside her. Moreover, one can only use NFP for serious reasons (not superficial ones). I would like to ask does Orthodoxy consider masturbation a sin?

NFP is more effective in preventing conception!

Again, what’s the point of this statement if NFP is only meant to be used for purposes of a serious nature and/or doesn’t involve spilling your seed wastefully? And you haven’t answered why all Christians prior to 1930 believed that using artificial contraceptives was immoral?

As we know, there are many clergy (including bishops) and the majority of Catholic laity who disagree with the pontiff of Rome on this issue. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the subject is still under study–which would mean that Rome may still allow limited condom use for extra-ordinary circumstances. That would put Rome right in line with Holy Orthodoxy.

It doesn’t matter if the laity and/or “many” bishops disagree with him, what matters is truth and ensuring that the truth will help people.

Oh contrare dear josie! There are many more studies that show the opposite of which you have stated here.

There have been some studies that state condoms are less effective than 90%, so I’m not sure what to think about studies in general. Suffice it to say unless ALL studies can show that condoms are 100% effective, then we have a problem Houston.

 

[AMDGtoo]

You guys go to Church five days per week at Lent! Wow!

You know that you can too–if you want. I know that the Latin or Roman Rite of the Catholic Church has Mass everyday all through the year–with the exception of Good Friday, then there’s only a Church service. (And you can be of any Catholic Rite and still attend since it is one Church.)

 

[josie_L]

So…dishonesty is a valid reason for the RC divorce?

Misrepresenting yourself is a serious issue and is therefore a valid reason to annul your wedding vows (Orthodoxy has both the annulment process and divorce so you cannot imply that they are one and the same).

 

[Mickey]

Don’t you think this is rather redundant.

Since you are not understanding, I suppose I must repeat.

Your still not getting it, NFP is morally permissible because it does not obstruct the act

You are obstructing conception! What on earth are you talking about!?!

you are not wasting your seed

You most certainly are!

Moreover, one can only use NFP for serious reasons (not superficial ones).

Same with condom use.

There have been some studies that state condoms are less effective than 90% so I’m not sure what to think about studies in general. Suffice it to say unless ALL studies can show that condoms are 100 % effective all the time, then we have a problem Houston.

I think it is you who have the problem josie. I believe you will see the allowance of condom use for extra-ordinary circumstances in the near future.

By the way, is prohibition of condom use an infallible papal doctrine?

 

[Mickey]

Misrepresenting yourself is a serious issue and is therefore a valid reason to annul your wedding vows

Corban!

 

[the_typist]

The only reason you should convert to either church is because you believe what it teaches is true. Which has kept the traditions, beliefs, practices of the apostles?

If I am wrong then please let me know but I believe that both the Orthodox and Catholic church’s have kept the traditions of the apostles.