Orthodoxy, Papacy

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Perhaps Panic, Joseph L Varga. You should be reading other discussion-groups at this very site. We have Catolics comdemning Catolics for

1, Using/not using only Latin
2. Accepting/not accepting Popedom of present pope - calling pope empty seat
3. Using, not using liturgy of 2nd Vatican Consil
4. Accepting/not accepting Papal infallibility (are Old Catolics, not really Catolics??)
Are there stupid, heretic people who call themselves Catholics? Of course, but the question here is not stupid heretics disagreeing with the Church. The issue is Orthodox bishops disagreeing with other Orthodox bishops over essentially nothing out of arrogance, conceit and pride and teaching their faithful to follow them. Surely you understand the difference. Do you see that in the Catholic Church? If you say ‘yes,’ please provide examples. Or just one.
Division and fragmentation is not always the problem only of those with whom you disagree, Even maintaining a dictatorial papacy cannot avoid this problem
Division and fragmentation are ALWAYS the problem. “I pray Father that they may be one, as you and I are one.” (Citation omitted.) The papacy has insured the Catholic Church is one in spite of the heretics of Satan who continue to infect us. Can the Orthodox legitimately claim to be one of anything?

Will you please give me a recent example of a dictatorial papacy? I’ve asked this of several Orthodox and have not gotten an answer. Will you be the first to reply?

Joseph has presented at least half a dozen reasonable, intelligent, factual arguments in the past two months. I have not seen a single intelligent, persuasive Orthodox reply yet. Yours included.
 
And I’m searching the New Testament, and the Early Church Fathers, and I don’t see them telling that disputed issues should be settled with a majority of votes, in an Ecumenical Council, or in a Holy Synod. They DO TELL, however, about Peter the Rock, his Keys to the Kingdom, and the necessity of every Church, everywhere, to agree with him…

I hope we don’t need to prove that the Pope (Bishop of Rome) has the same authority today as Peter the Apostle had back then…
BRAVO!!! Exactly right! You make more sense than anyone on this board. I have no doubt the Spirit of the Lord is guiding you.
 
Joseph, and Ferde,

Your apologetics is, typically Roman, very selective and not historically accurate to simply get your point across;

you ever heard of the council of Jerusalem?! Acts chapter 15 I believe.

How did the Church resolve the issue of the Judaizing Christians? By calling an assembly together that was Presided over by the Apostles and Elders/Bishops of the local churches.

How has the Holy Spirit always guided the mind of the church? By the calling of synods and councils, even those without the Popes permission that were LATER declared ecumenical, when it was seen that the mind of the church and the findings of the councils were in harmony.

Unless you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is the Church’s guide, then you believe that the historical reality of the church’s decision making process is in error, but that is the fundamental Basis for the promulgation of doctrine and the defining of the Faith.

So please, read some church history, and the Acts of the first seven ecumenical councils and acquaint yourself with the circumstances surrounding them.
  1. No Pope called any of the First Seven ecumenical councils.
  2. The emperor did. That is part of the original definition of an ecumenical council, that it was “imperial” having been called by the ruler of the whole “oeconomia”
  3. The Pope Was not personally present at any of the first seven ecumenical councils, and flat out rejected the calling of the first council of constantinople.
  4. The test of a council’s Orthodoxy was not whether the Pope received it, but whether it accorded with the Mind of the Church as a whole and, simply put, if its decrees met with the general unanimous consent of the prelates of the church.
 
How did the Church resolve the issue of the Judaizing Christians? By calling an assembly together that was Presided over by the Apostles and Elders/Bishops of the local churches.
Yes, there was a council but the members “resolved” the issue by affirming what God had revealed through Peter, i.e., the infallibility of Peter’s revelation did not necessarily need the council’s affirmation. I do not deny that councils are an instrument/organ of infallibility but they can only be confirmed as such when members of the council are in communion with the successor to Peter, i.e., the Bishop of Rome. Just ask yourself when’s the last time Orthodoxy held an ecumenical council?
How has the Holy Spirit always guided the mind of the church? By the calling of synods and councils, even those without the Popes permission that were LATER declared ecumenical, when it was seen that the mind of the church and the findings of the councils were in harmony.
Are you refering to the first council of Constantinople which never originally intended to be ecumenical, and only deemed as such at a later date, i.e., when Pope St. Gregory recognized its dogmatic utterances (Ephesus doesn’t mention Constantinople as ecumenical)? By the way, It was convoked to deal with Eastern problems which explains why there wasn’t any western bishops at the council.
Unless you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is the Church’s guide, then you believe that the historical reality of the church’s decision making process is in error, but that is the fundamental Basis for the promulgation of doctrine and the defining of the Faith.
Yes, ecumenical councils are used for promulgating doctrine and defining the faith, but so is the Pope. The pope confirmed (or revoked) counciliar decisions and promulgated doctrine that was accepted by councils as error-free, i.e., think of Pope Leo the Great’s (your namesake) tome and Pope St. Agatho’s letter. The councils in question declared that their work was error-free, but of course, their declaration wasn’t per se necessary to make it infallible teaching.
  1. No Pope called any of the First Seven ecumenical councils.
I believe a few councils were called on the initiative of popes, but I don’t see how this matters, are you advocating that emperors have a primacy?
  1. The emperor did. That is part of the original definition of an ecumenical council, that it was “imperial” having been called by the ruler of the whole oeconomia"
Are you then advocating caesaropapism?
  1. The Pope Was not personally present at any of the first seven ecumenical councils, and flat out rejected the calling of the first council of constantinople.
He didn’t reject anything because Constantinople was not initially intended to be ecumenical, moreover, the pope did not need to be present because he sent Roman legates in his stead.
  1. The test of a council’s Orthodoxy was not whether the Pope received it, but whether it accorded with the Mind of the Church as a whole and, simply put, if its decrees met with the general unanimous consent of the prelates of the church.
If that were true we’d be either Arians, Monophysites, Monothelites … . .etc., i.e., there were many councils that were conceived as orthodox but for the fact that they were not confirmed by the Pope were we spared. The famous Robber council was also determined to be ecumenical in status, but the Pope never confirmed it. Quite frankly we need a lot more than just a council (the highest organ of infallibility according to the Orthodox) to save us from falling into heresy. We need both popes (albeit popes have authority over councils) and councils as organs of infallibility.
 
Yes, there was a council but the members “resolved” the issue by affirming what God had revealed through Peter, i.e., the infallibility of Peter’s revelation did not necessarily need the council’s affirmation. I do not deny that councils are an instrument/organ of infallibility but they can only be confirmed as such when members of the council are in communion with the successor to Peter, i.e., the Bishop of Rome. Just ask yourself when’s the last time Orthodoxy held an ecumenical council?

Ok, two things, Peter’s vision is not what was promulgated to the Churches, it was instructive for that council coming to a clear decision about what to do, and what needed to be done was for James and the other apostles to draw up an apostolic letter and circulate it among the churches saying “It seemed good to US and the Holy spirit not to impose any other burden on you…”

Also, the terms for a truly ecumenical council in the Orthodox mindset require that the west participate. However, they have had several Pan-Orthodox synods through the centuries that have been received by their church as a whole, so while they may not be ecumenical, they have ecumenical authority and character, because the whole mind of the church has unanimously accepted them.
Are you refering to the first council of Constantinople which never originally intended to be ecumenical, and only deemed as such at a later date, i.e., when Pope St. Gregory recognized its dogmatic utterances (Ephesus doesn’t mention Constantinople as ecumenical)? By the way, It was convoked to deal with Eastern problems which explains why there wasn’t any western bishops at the council.*

Yes. The Synod was held against the Popes wishes, but was later considered ecumenical because of its dogmas, and the fact that it represented the mind of the church.

Yes, ecumenical councils are used for promulgating doctrine and defining the faith, but so is the Pope. The pope confirmed (or revoked) counciliar decisions and promulgated doctrine that was accepted by councils as error-free, i.e., think of Pope Leo the Great’s (your namesake) tome and Pope St. Agatho’s letter. The councils in question declared that their work was error-free, but of course, their declaration wasn’t per se necessary to make it infallible teaching.

Well, the Tome of Leo was not intended to be an infallible document, and the Pope was not excercising infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council, His Tome was a letter written to another Bishob, Fabian, who later fell victim to Dioscorus. It was presented at the Council because its teaching was perceived as being in harmony with the Mind, or Phronema, of the Church. It was Ratified BY the Council itself. The easterners didn’t just shout out that Leo was awesome and orthodox, Each subscribed his name and signature saying that it was without error, indicating it was subject to conciliar scrutiny and judgement, read the acts of Chalcedon. And Papal infallibility has only clearly been used twice in Church History. If God liked it so much, why aren’t there more examples of it?

Councils don’t MAKE infallible teaching, and neither do Popes. They simply recognize what the Church has always believed. If you say it is otherwise, you support that Rome is the Chief Novelty-monger. You MUST understand, in the Easternecclesiology, the Mind of the Church is the Determinent for all doctrinal matters. The church as a whole is the possesor of the Faith, not just the Bishops, and so councils and popes are not outside authorities who impose NEW BINDING JUDGEMENTS. They are tools that protect the spiritual lives of the People of God in recognizing what has always been held to.

*I believe a few councils were called on the initiative of popes, but I don’t see how this matters, are you advocating that emperors have a primacy? *

No, I am saying that our current concept of an ecumenical council is not what was once called an ecumenical council in the beginning. research the 879 Reunian Synod held by Photius, convoked by the Emperor, with Roman delegates in attendance, which is NOT part of the Roman conciliar patrimony (Even though it was considered ecumenical by pope John VIII ) and you will see what I mean.
 
I]Are you then advocating caesaropapism?

No, simply what I stated above.

He didn’t reject anything because Constantinople was not initially intended to be ecumenical, moreover, the pope did not need to be present because he sent Roman legates in his stead.

See above response to constantinople.

If that were true we’d be either Arians, Monophysites, Monothelites … . .etc., i.e., there were many councils that were conceived as orthodox but for the fact that they were not confirmed by the Pope were we spared. The famous Robber council was also determined to be ecumenical in status, but the Pope never confirmed it. Quite frankly we need a lot more than just a council (the highest organ of infallibility according to the Orthodox) to save us from falling into heresy. We need both popes (albeit popes have authority over councils) and councils as organs of infallibility.

Actually, your last statement is not quite accurate. According to the Catechism The College of Bishops with the Pope at the Head is the Supreme Authority in the Church. Singular Authority, College of Bishops, Pope as the Leader of them.

Actually, the Holy Spirit has done quite well, remember there IS a supernatural dimension to the Church’s governance, it doesn’t all depend on us. That being said, yes, the office of Pope is an aid to Unity, but never at the expense of His brother Bishops, as Pope St. Gregory the Dialogist would put it. But actually, the part where you said we would all be whatever if we just went by the mind of the church is erroneous, because you are admitting that it is possible for the MIND of the church to turn From Christ, and this is impossible. The Sensus Fidei, or Phronema of the Church, is infallible. These “Authorities” are what help us recognize it. NUMBERS, majorities and minorities, sway with the tide, but the CHURCH’S heart is always on track, identifying it requires discernment, but hey, did you think being a Bishop in the fifth century was gonna be easy? You gotta use your head and pray. Besides, it’s CHRIST’S church, not the Popes. CHRIST is the one building on Peter, yet Peter does not build on himself, but on Christ. All in the Power of the Holy Spirit.

God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to hi
 
NUMBERS, majorities and minorities, sway with the tide, but the CHURCH’S heart is always on track
I agree with this statement. But how do you identify where the CHURCH is, when you cannot use the NUMBERS as criterion?

You already know my answer. 😃 The CHURCH is where Peter or his successor is, regardless of whether he finds himself in the majority or in the minority, on a disputed issue.

What’s your answer, and your criterion, when there’s disagreement between groups of Bishops?

Let’s use ecclesiastical divorce and artificial birth control as examples. Are these gravely sinful, or permissible? Catholic Bishops say that they are gravely sinful. Many EO Bishops permit them. Both positions cannot be correct, at the same time. How do you decide?
 
Oh, Joseph, those are 2 reasons why I am not canonically a member of World Orthodoxy 🙂

I just play devils advocate, I am Catholic, but I want to see more historical honesty from Roman apologists, instead of shotgun quoting taken out of context.

Simply acknowledge that things are not as simple as apologists want them to be.

I would agree thast for the reason you gave, this is why it is necessary to have a central reference for Orthodoxy, but the Orthodox would say our Traditions that we have received are sufficient to determine the mind of the Church. The reason is, that no heretical movement starts all at once, it always starts with an individual before it escalates. So take the movement back to the INDIVIDUAL Like Arius or Apollinaris of Laodicea or Paul of Samosata and see if THEY deviate from the heart of the church according to its tradition. It is a feasible WAY, but already the problem arises, what do you accept as tradition and why. And what is the Answer? That which the church has always believed, the mind of the church…even the Orthodox acknowledge their answer is somewhat unsatisfactory, but they posit it as the best they have. And there are elements that are true, like the Church’s mind being an infallible guide led by the Holy Spirit, but how is that effected in the real world?

The Orthodox even acknowledge the Petrine office as useful for this particular reason, but see, they don’t reject Rome flippantly. They see some of the Choices Rome has made doctrinally as fundamentally flawed, So they NEED an ecclesiology that is decentralized a little more than Roman and eastern Catholic ecclesiology, because they don’t have a sure fooothold, in terms of what visibly is guiding the day to day decisions of the Church.

Of course, like I said, it can be a temptation to rely too much on the Pope, when all depends on the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is HIS church that the Pope is SERVING, not the other way around. And this would be the Orthodox position as well. So you have to navigate the historical reality a bit more. That, and as I said, there is ONE Supreme authority, all Of the Bishops of the World in communion with the Bishop of Rome form a SINGLE teaching authority.
 
Ok, two things, Peter’s vision is not what was promulgated to the Churches, it was instructive for that council coming to a clear decision about what to do, and what needed to be done was for James and the other apostles to draw up an apostolic letter and circulate it among the churches saying “It seemed good to US and the Holy spirit not to impose any other burden on you…”
Yes, Peter was instructing the council but he was doing so on account of a revelation he received, i.e., there was no debating the issue and that is why the Church accepted.
Also, the terms for a truly ecumenical council in the Orthodox mindset require that the west participate. However, they have had several Pan-Orthodox synods through the centuries that have been received by their church as a whole, so while they may not be ecumenical, they have ecumenical authority and character, because the whole mind of the church has unanimously accepted them.
No, they were not ecumenical in authority or character nor accepted as a whole by the Church, in fact, the very same problems that they had then (and were supposedly accepted by the Church as whole) they still have now (phyletism, rebaptism. . . etc.)
Yes. The Synod was held against the Popes wishes, but was later considered ecumenical because of its dogmas, and the fact that it represented the mind of the church.
I have not read that the synod was held against the popes wishes, can you please cite a source?
Well, the Tome of Leo was not intended to be an infallible document, and the Pope was not excercising infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council, His Tome was a letter written to another Bishob, Fabian, who later fell victim to Dioscorus. It was presented at the Council because its teaching was perceived as being in harmony with the Mind, or Phronema, of the Church. It was Ratified BY the Council itself. The easterners didn’t just shout out that Leo was awesome and orthodox, Each subscribed his name and signature saying that it was without error, indicating it was subject to conciliar scrutiny and judgement, read the acts of Chalcedon.
Actually, not exactly so, Leo’s tome was intended to be read at the infamous council of Ephesus but that never happened, in fact, Flavius (not Fabian) who had been beaten wrote to Leo saying:

“When I began to appeal to the throne of the Apostolic See of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and to the whole sacred synod, which is obedient to Your Holiness, at once a crowd of soldiers surrounded me and barred my way when I wished to take refuge at the holy altar. …Therefore, I beseech Your Holiness not to permit these things to be treated with indifference…but to rise up first on behalf of the cause of our orthodox Faith, now destroyed by unlawful acts. …**Further to issue an authoritative instruction…**so that a like faith may everywhere be preached by the assembly of an united synod of fathers, both Eastern and Western. Thus the laws of the fathers may prevail and all that has been done amiss be rendered null and void. Bring healing to this ghastly wound. – Patriarch Flavian of Constantinople to Pope Leo, 449”

Pope St. Leo then sent out his tome throughout the whole church as an authoritative instruction (prior to the council of Chalcedon). When the council in question accepted and affirmed the teachings, the bishops ratified the counciliar decisions but still needed confirmation from the pope before it could be finalized. In fact, there is one particular canon (28) which was not recognized by Pope St. Leo, here is what bishop Anatolius of Constantinople had to say with regard to Leo’s rejection of said canon:

“As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness. – Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132 (on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon).”

to be continued. . . .
 
Councils don’t MAKE infallible teaching, and neither do Popes. They simply recognize what the Church has always believed. If you say it is otherwise, you support that Rome is the Chief Novelty-monger. You MUST understand, in the Easternecclesiology, the Mind of the Church is the Determinent for all doctrinal matters. The church as a whole is the possesor of the Faith, not just the Bishops, and so councils and popes are not outside authorities who impose NEW BINDING JUDGEMENTS. They are tools that protect the spiritual lives of the People of God in recognizing what has always been held to.
Excuse me, where did I say councils or for that matter popes MAKE infallible teachings? Moreover, what councils and popes revealed (through the Holy Spirit) is more than just a simple recognition of what the Church always believed, i.e., doctrines held by the church develop/ed over time enabling us to understand the deposit of faith more clearly (think of the dogma of the Trinity). Furthermore, I never said that bishops were not bound by the deposit of faith, i.e., you are making too many assumptions.
No, I am saying that our current concept of an ecumenical council is not what was once called an ecumenical council in the beginning. research the 879 Reunian Synod held by Photius, convoked by the Emperor, with Roman delegates in attendance, which is NOT part of the Roman conciliar patrimony (Even though it was considered ecumenical by pope John VIII ) and you will see what I mean.
First, it was never considered ecumenical by any pope (that is a historical fabrication), second, how can a council be recognized as ecumenical (by Rome) when it wasn’t even regarded as such by the East? Anyways, here’s an article delineating the many fallacies surrounding this synod: thebananarepublican1.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/the-photian-robber-council-of-879-880/
 
No, simply what I stated above.
Then what was your point, i.e., that just because the bishops of Rome didn’t convoke every council they did not hold the prerogative/right to do so.
Actually, your last statement is not quite accurate. According to the Catechism The College of Bishops with the Pope at the Head is the Supreme Authority in the Church. Singular Authority, College of Bishops, Pope as the Leader of them.
Actually, my statement is accurate, in fact, papal supremacy is clearly delineated in the cathechism (paragraph 882). Please read this article: catholicfaithandreason.org/papalsup.htm

And if you doubt the authority of the pope vis a vis ecumenical councils then please take note of these particular sayings (there are many more):
Macedonius, Patriarch of Constantinople (466-516):
"Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that ‘such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible.’" (Macedonius, Migne PG 108:360a [Theophan Chronogr, pages 234-346])
St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828), writes:
“Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of Headship among the Apostles.” (St. Nicephorus, Niceph Cpl pro s imag c 25)
St. Theodore the Studite (c. 759-826):
“Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See.” (St. Theodore the Studite, Migne PG 99:1420)
St. Peter Chrysologus, Archbishop of Ravenna, writes:
We exhort you, honorable brother, that you obediently listen to what has been written by the blessed Pope of the city of Rome, since blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, offers the truth of faith to those who seek. For we, in our zeal for peace and faith, cannot decide questions of faith apart from consent of the Bishop of Rome. – Peter Chrysologus of Ravenna to Eutyches, Ep 25
Pope St. Gregory the Great
The decrees of councils would have NO FORCE “WITHOUT the authority and consent of the Apostolic See” [ix:156; cf. v:39,41,44].
Actually, the Holy Spirit has done quite well, remember there IS a supernatural dimension to the Church’s governance, it doesn’t all depend on us. That being said, yes, the office of Pope is an aid to Unity, but never at the expense of His brother Bishops, as Pope St. Gregory the Dialogist would put it. But actually, the part where you said we would all be whatever if we just went by the mind of the church is erroneous, because you are admitting that it is possible for the MIND of the church to turn From Christ, and this is impossible. The Sensus Fidei, or Phronema of the Church, is infallible.
Of course, I know there is a supernatural dimension to the Church, how else could I believe that what she teaches is infallible, my point is that there are visible organs of infallibility which are guided by the Holy Spirit, i.e., through popes and ecumenical councils (deliberated by the magisterium in communion with Rome).

Edit: Do you mean Pope St. Gregory the Great who also maintained that all were under the authority of the bishop of Rome because he was the successor to Saint Peter?
[Pope Gregory also appealed to the Emperor Maurice – Epp v:37]
“It is clear to every one who knows the Gospel that the CARE of the WHOLE CHURCH has been committed to the blessed PETER, CHIEF of the Apostles. For him it is said: [quotes from John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32; and Matt 16:18-19]
. Behold, he receives the keys of the kingdom of heaven; to him is given the power of binding and loosing; to him the CARE and PRIMACY of the WHOLE CHURCH is committed; and yet he is never called the Universal Apostle. But that most holy man, my fellow-bishop John, wishes to be called the Universal Bishop. I am compelled to exclaim, O tempora! O mores!”

God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to hi
 
I said, I am Catholic, I acknowledge Papal Supremacy, but I do not acknowledge any Absolute Monarchy in the Popes Spiritual Jurisdiction, and I do not have to absolutely accept anything beyond what was accepted during the 1st millenium by the Christian East. How do I know this? Cardinal Ratzinger says so, now our Holy Father:

“The Ratzinger Proposal”, which then cardinal Ratzinger penned in 1987, in which he proposed a return to the understanding of the Roman primacy which prevailed before the Great Schism, and would not impose the formulas of the recent centuries (ie, Vatican I):

Certainly, no one who claims allegiance to Catholic theology can simply declare the doctrine of primacy null and void, especially not if he seeks to understand the objections and evaluates with an open mind the relative weight of what can be determined historically. Nor is it possible, on the other hand, for him to regard as the only possible form and, consequently, as binding on all Christians the form this primacy has taken in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The symbolic gestures of Pope Paul VI and, in particular, his kneeling before the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch were an attempt to express precisely this and, by such signs, to point the way out of the historical impasse. Although it is not given us to halt the flight of history, to change the course of centuries, we may say, nevertheless, that what was possible for a thousand years is not impossible for Christians today. After all, Cardinal Humbert of Silva Candida, in the same bull in which he excommunicated the Patriarch Michael Cerularius and thus inaugurated the schism between East and West, designated the Emperor and people of Constantinople as “very Christian and orthodox”, although their concept of the Roman primacy was certainly far less different from that of Cerularius than from that, let us say, of the First Vatican Council. In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope’s visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium.** Rome need not ask for more. **Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has always had.

Such a mutual act of acceptance and recognition, in the Catholicity that is common to and still possessed by each side, is assuredly no light matter. It is an act of self-conquest, of self-denunciation and, certainly, also of self-discovery. It is an act that cannot be brought about by diplomacy but must be a spiritual undertaking of the whole Church in both East and West. If what is theologically possible is also to be actually possible in the Church, the theological aspect must be spiritually prepared and spiritually accepted. My diagnosis of the relationship between East and West in the Church is as follows: from a theological perspective, the union of the Churches of East and West is fundamentally possible, but the spiritual preparation is not yet sufficiently far advanced and, therefore, not yet ready in practice. When I say it is fundamentally possible from a theological perspective, I do not overlook the fact that, on closer inspection, a number of obstacles still exist with respect to the theological possibility: from the Filioque to the question of the indissolubility of marriage. Despite these difficulties, some of which are present more strongly in the West, some in the East, we must learn that unity, for its part, is a Christian truth, an essentially Christian concept, of so high a rank that it can be sacrificed only to safeguard what is most fundamental, not where the way to it is obstructed by formulations and practices that, however important they may be, do not destroy community in the faith of the Fathers and in the basic form of the Church as they saw her.
– Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1987), pp. 198-199.
 
I said, I am Catholic, I acknowledge Papal Supremacy, but I do not acknowledge any Absolute Monarchy in the Popes Spiritual Jurisdiction, and I do not have to absolutely accept anything beyond what was accepted during the 1st millenium by the Christian East. How do I know this? Cardinal Ratzinger says so, now our Holy Father:
What is your understanding of the doctrine of papal supremacy as defined by Vatican I if you say you acknowledge it? Are you an Orthodox in communion with Rome? Because if you are not you cannot possibly say that you “do not have to absolutely accept anything beyond what was accepted during the 1st millenium”?

Edit: I do not acknowledge any absolute monarchy either, but I am a Catholic who believes in papal supremacy as defined by Vatican 1. :confused:
 
First of all I have to say I’m absolutely breathless at the implication you are making. Are you seriously saying the Bishop of Rome had more authority than a living Apostle? Really?

Second I would be careful using the argument from silence to try and bolster your position. It really doesn’t play in your favor at all. 😉

Because they weren’t teaching that the pope was infallible or that he had universal jurisdiction. Why would you expect them to be condemned for espousing a position they never held?

Mostly because the pope didn’t have the power to depose a patriarch and had no authority to veto conciliar decisions. 🤷

If you really want to play this game I have a few questions as well.
  • If the pope was indeed the supreme, infallible ruler of the entire Church why was he not present at a single Ecumenical Council?
  • Why was Second Council called without even consulting the pope and chaired by a bishop (St Meletius) who was not in communion with Rome?
  • Why was the Fourth Council called against his expressed wishes?
  • Why did the rest of the Church ignore the supposed “veto” of the 28th canon of the Council of Chalcedon?
  • Why did the Third Council chose to hold a trial of Nestorius after the pope had already “excommunicated” him, even addressing him as a bishop?
  • Why if the pope was considered the measure of Orthodoxy was he struck from the diptychs time and time again?
  • Why if the pope was considered infallible did the Oriental Orthodox bishops have no qualms in breaking communion with him after the Council of Chalcedon and the Eastern Orthodox bishops in 1054?
My friend if you look at the behavior of the early Church it doesn’t bolster your position at all my friend. 😉

Yours in Christ
Joe
Hello josephdaniel29,

What is the “Second Council” you are referring to? (In your second bullet point.)

thanks
 
I do not make a point to disparage Vatican I, but it is not part of my spiritual patrimony that the Popes have called us to return to, and So I do not go out of my way to acknowledge it.

By the way, this is not polemical at all, but after the 2 council nicea in 787 is there any authoritative list declaring which of the General western synods have ecumenical authority? Is there any Authoritative, list that authoritatively defines the western synods after 787 as ecumenical?

Also: Did you read what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote? That is why I do not have to accept it, but neither am I free to reject it as wrong: It does not occur in the history or paradigm of the eastern church, this later understanding of an absolute monarch pope.
 
Here is what Brian W. Harrison [in part] had to say about Constantinople I in this article:

"WITH THE First Council of Constantinople (381) we are dealing with another case in which there are not extant acts. This council also was convoked by an emperor, Theodosius I.[Ibid.] The language of his decree suggests he regarded the Roman see as a yardstick of Christian orthodoxy. He commands all his subjects to practice the religion which Peter the apostle transmitted to the Romans. In calling the Council, Theodosius did not envisage the assembled bishops debating Roman doctrine as thought it were an open question.

**The fact that Meletius of Antioch presided at Constantinople I, and the absence of any Roman legates, might appear to be evidence against the Roman primacy. It must be remembered that the Council was not originally intended to be ecumenical in the same sense as Nicaea. **

It included, after all, only 150 bishops from Thrace, Asia Minor, and Egypt and was convoked to deal with certain Eastern problems.[New Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. ‘Constantinople, First Council of.’] In fact, it was not recognized as ecumenical by the Council of Ephesus half a century later, and it was left to Pope Gregory the Great to elevate it to that status.[Rivington, 256-68.]" (Emphasis mine.)

He goes on, if I’m not mistaken, to explain how the Canons themselves give evidence that it is more of an Eastern Council in it’s original intent. It seems to me to be a good answer to the question posed by jd29.
 
Are there stupid, heretic people who call themselves Catholics? The issue is Orthodox bishops disagreeing with other Orthodox bishops over essentially nothing out of arrogance, conceit and pride and teaching their faithful to follow them.
Division and fragmentation are ALWAYS the problem.
Will you please give me a recent example of a dictatorial papacy? I’ve asked this of several Orthodox and have not gotten an answer. Will you be the first to reply?

.
Dear Ferde Rombola: Of course there can only be your opinion - others are “stupid”. You attack bishops you do not know for disagreeing out of arrogance, conceit, pride. I am an old man and have seen my holy bishop martyred for his faith at the hands of Bolsheviks. You sit in your wonderful Catolic country and complain of my bishop being arrogant!! You are a most un-Christian fellow, Ferde!

The dictatorial papacy is seen in such sites in a site which gives English language description of Piujs IX Pope at time of Vatican Council Number1:

The doctrine of Papal Infallibility was guaranteed to pass because had the deep personal involvement of Pius IX himself and the intimidating coercive tactics he used. A measure of his resolve is the statement he made to the chief editor of La Civilta Cattolica, My mind is so made up that if need be I shall take the definition upon myself and dismiss the Council if it wishes to keep silence. 15 In a brief to Dom Gueranger, Abbot of Solesmes, a leading French Ultramontane (on the other side of the Alps; one who advocates supreme papal authority), Pius IX, while demonstrating no lack of confidence in his own infallibility, attacks and brands the bishops who oppose the definition as men, who show themselves completely imbued with corrupt principals and who no longer know how to submit their intelligence to the judgment of the Holy SeeTheir folly mounts to this excess that they attempt to remake the divine constitution of the Church in order to bring down more easily the authority of the supreme Head whom Christ has set over it and whose prerogatives they dread.16 Pope Pius IX was so bent on having the office of the Papacy declared infallible he used the power and prestige of his office to intimidate and upbraid even bishops who adopted a neutral or moderate line. The Reverend T. Mozley, special correspondent to The Times of London writes that bishops who adopted a neutral or moderate line:
find themselves sorely tried in a personal interview. They find it vain to declare their devotion or their sincerity. His Holiness tells them plainly they are not on his side; they are among his enemies; they are damaging the good cause; their loyalty is not sound. It is enough that they have signed what they should not, or not signed what they ought.17
Ullathorne, Bishop of Birmingham wrote, The Pope, takes every opportunity of expressing his views on the infallibility both in audiences and letters that at once get into the papers.18 Again Ullathorne writes, The Pope, I believe, is bent on the definition, if he can, as the crowning of his reign, and I think it will in some shape probably pass. 19 To a group of vicars apostolic and Oriental bishops, Pius IX reminded them, It is necessary for you to defend the truth with the Vicar of Jesus Christ.
 
Are you an Orthodox in communion with Rome?
Aren’t you? Isn’t that what “Catholic” means?

If Eastern Christians (which is what you presumably mean by “Orthodox”) don’t have to believe what Western Christians have to believe, then your Communion’s pretensions to unity are bogus.

I say this as a Western Christian who would happily unite with Rome if I had to believe only what the Orthodox believe. At this point I’m convinced both of the need for union with Rome and of the generally greater faithfulness of the Orthodox to Sacred Tradition. Which leaves me in a bit of a pickle, since each side insists that they have nothing lacking.

Edwin
 
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