OSAS and ephesians 4:30

[Sean_Boyle]

The elect will always abide in Christ; the elect will always repent of their sin; the elect will not be lost; that is why they are called the elect.

Even your Church teaches election to glorification for some.

No limit to things that cannot separate the elect from God.

Your almost there…

Your definition of the elect is a little off. The “elect” are those who have died in the flesh but are not yet perfect. Purgatory, for lack of a better word, holds the “elect”. The elect cannot be still here in a earthly existance, that would contradict scripture as has been pointed out already.

See, now it all makes sense.

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

Your almost there…

Your definition of the elect is a little off. The “elect” are those who have died in the flesh but are not yet perfect. Purgatory, for lack of a better word, holds the “elect”. The elect cannot be still here in a earthly existance, that would contradict scripture as has been pointed out already.

Do your ever read and study scripture, Sean? Or, do you just read the catechism? Or, do you just make this stuff up?

Where is any of what you said concerning the elect stated in scripture, or in the catechism?

According to your definition of the elect, then, all of the elect saints who have ever died, including the BVM, are in purgatory ; wouldn’t that right, according to what you’ve
stated above?

(I see a back peddle in your future, Sean ).
Sean Boyle:

See, now it all makes sense.

Only in your world.

 

[christcnection1]

Romans 8:35

Who will separate us from the love of Christ?.. No one, not even the believer.

I’m sure you are; but let’s work on understanding the Romans 8 passage first; unless you’re not curious about that.

The notion that one can isolate one verse of scripture, determine its “clear” meaning, and then ignore dozens of other passages is absurd. I know you would agree we should look at scripture as a whole, but you’re sure not acting like it.

I also believe in Romans 8 (and all of the Bible), just not necessarily your fallible interpretation of it. On what basis are you assured that your interpretation of the Bible is the correct one? This is something you must accept as faith; you cannot have absolute assurance about one’s personal interpretation of scripture. The Bible does not support that everyone has equal say in scripture’s meaning.

The only reason I brought up these verses was to show that your interpretation of that passage is plainly in opposition to the many verse I brought to your attention. Do we both agree that scripture cannot contradict itself? If you desire to convince us, you will have to deal with these things…​

1. How could I lose my salvation if Jesus said that no one could snatch me out of God’s hand (John 10:28)?

One mistake that often leads to verse slinging is failing to address a verse that is presented. When we hear a Protestant offer his verse, we think of another verse that seems to argue for our position and we toss it back to him. Then we become frustrated that he never looked seriously as the verse and threw a different one back at us. The remedy for this type of scriptural ping-pong is to take the time to look at each verse that is brought up.

In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why.

Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is “cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned” (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of “once saved always saved.”
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp​

If our Lord wanted to make scripture so clear that it couldn’t be misunderstood, He could have. Unfortunately, personal interpretation has brought profound division.

What kind of degree do you have to prove your point? I ask this because there are countless Non-Catholic Christians with a tremendous amount of education, dedication, and holiness that would firmly disagree with your personal interpetation.

I do not mean this to be mean or harsh, but this is a battle you are losing. In most of our minds, you have already lost. I suggest that you consider spending some more time in prayer, volunteering, or with your family. Perhaps your time would be better spent that way. I plan to do the same…

May the Lord bless and keep you Sandusky

 

[anthony022071]

So, you have no objections to what I’ve said about Rom 8?

I can agree with that. But in light of Romans 11,17-24 I can’t agree with “Once saved,always saved”. Our salvation remains precarious as long as we are alive,because it hinges on our faith. And faith,as we know from James,is dead without works. It stands to reason that a dead faith cannot lead to eternal life. The Catholic view does’nt leave much room for complacency.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Do your ever read and study scripture, Sean? Or, do you just read the catechism? Both. They both contain truth as reveal by God.

Where is any of what you said concerning the elect stated in scripture, or in the catechism?

According to your definition of the elect, then, all of the elect saints who have ever died, including the BVM, are in purgatory ; wouldn’t that right, according to what you’ve
stated above?

Let me try to help you out here.

The “elect” refers to the Church Militant (you and I) and Church Triumphant (in heaven) in the new testment. The Church Militant are call “the elect” in scripture by viture of a double reason, they were freely chosen by God’s goodness and secondly they must show in their conduct that they are choice men (obedience and love working thru faith). summary from Catholic Encyclopedia on “the elect.”

Christ speaking thru his Church declares the Church Triumphant
No one else can. No human can declares themselves among the elect, only God makes that judgement.

Any other questions…

 

[Linkowski]

Yes, I believe all those passages, but I don’t accept your conclusion.
You need to factor in all the many passages that have been mentioned about losing ones salvation. You just can’t ignore them because they seem to contradict how you are interpreting these other passages.

It is quite clear if scripture, that one can walk away from salvation.
If one passage says that God has choosen you, and that you will have enternal life, but another says that you should be careful not to be cut off from the olive tree, Well doggone it, it means that you have to be faithful until the end.

That is why Jesus said to be ready, because the judge will come like a thief in the night.
And Paul said that you (a believing Christian) could be cut off, if you fall away from the faith. They didn’t say this because they were getting paid by the word when they wrote the books of the Bible, they wrote it for a reason. And that is to warn us to live a faithfilled obedient life.

OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine for the Christian, it could lure them into a false security that could adversly affect their salavtion.

I would go as far to say that it is the work of the evil one, because it sounds quite a bit to me like the serpent telling Eve, “Surely you will not die”. And I will not fall for it, I will continue to rededicate my self to Christ daily, by walking the walk, and staying clear of Sin as much as I can, and when I do fall into sin, which I know that I will, I will confess it, ask for God’s forgiveness, and repent. All of this with Christ’s help since I can’t do it on my own.

I will defend my position as I have done in the past…God ordains the end of our salvation as well as the means of our salvation (the elect) and the warnings of scripture work the same way that the warning works in this passage:

Look in Acts 27…A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to **be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. **23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has foreordained this “salvation” to occur (physcial saving of life - not the saving of the soul). This is the type of scripture that I like to bring up…

So, does that mean everyone just sits back to enjoy this decree that God has made and take no action from a human standpoint to make sure that this saving of life actually comes to pass? No…In order for this to take place, human responsibility and action was necessary…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place and has been foreordained by God…He said - DON’T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture with regard to our salvation…YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are of the elect WILL. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Ps 37:24 When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand.

God has planned the salvation of some and this foreordaining of the salvation of the elect also involves the means by which they will be saved.

Jeremiah 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

I believe that these warning passages in God’s Word are the means by which God puts fear in the hearts of the elect - that they not turn from Him.

 

[Linkowski]

I can agree with that. But in light of Romans 11,17-24 I can’t agree with “Once saved,always saved”. Our salvation remains precarious as long as we are alive,because it hinges on our faith. And faith,as we know from James,is dead without works. It stands to reason that a dead faith cannot lead to eternal life. The Catholic view does’nt leave much room for complacency.

Once justified - the end is predetermined…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Please remember scripture passages like this one…

Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If we hold our faith to the end - we have become partakers which tells us that those who do not persevere were not partakers…

For we are become partakers of Christ (metochoi gar tou Christou gegonamen). Second perfect active of ginomai, “we have become,” not the equivalent of esmen (are). For metochoi see Heb 1:9; 3:1; 6:4. We have become partners with Christ and hence (gar, for) should not be tricked into apostasy. If we hold fast (ean per kataschômen). The same condition as in verse Heb 3:6 with per (indeed, forsooth) added to ean. Jonathan Edwards once said that the sure proof of election is that one holds out to the end. The beginning of our confidence (tên archên tês hupostaseôs). For hupostasis see Heb 1:3; 11:1. These faltering believers (some even apostates) began with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. And now?

Robertson’s New Testament Word Pictures

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house** we are**, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

We are…have become…and the evidence is that we hold fast…

AND…

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Clean because of the righteousness of Christ…because of the new standing of “JUSTIFIED” - rather than the previous standing of “CONDEMNED”.

 

[Linkowski]

Let me try to help you out here.

The “elect” refers to the Church Militant (you and I) and Church Triumphant (in heaven) in the new testment. The Church Militant are call “the elect” in scripture by viture of a double reason, they were freely chosen by God’s goodness and secondly they must show in their conduct that they are choice men (obedience and love working thru faith). summary from Catholic Encyclopedia on “the elect.”

Christ speaking thru his Church declares the Church Triumphant
No one else can. No human can declares themselves among the elect, only God makes that judgement.

Any other questions…

1 John gives us a good litmus test as to whether or not we are of the elect…

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, **they would no doubt have continued **with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Sounds like reassurance that they KNOW.

1Jo 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Cross-ref with James 2…
1Jo 3:17 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him…REF 1John 5:13

1Jo 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

**1Jo 5:13 *These things ***I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

2Jo 1:2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Others:

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

And we are told…

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

The elect will persevere and never fall utterly into unbelief. Once saved always saved - those who fall away lose what they THINK THEY HAVE (Luke 18:8)…what they perceive to have only through mere intellectual knowledge - sitting in a church pew indifferent to the message of the gospel:

1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. - The salvation that never was…

 

[HailMary]

I don’t suppose that anyone of the protestant faith would mind answering a question I’d like to get answered

If OSAS were true, what is the point of God’s judgment after you die?

keeping in mind

2 Cor 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

which leads me into the next question:
How God will reward you for evil?

Thanks, again

 

[Linkowski]

I don’t suppose that anyone of the protestant faith would mind answering a question I’d like to get answered

If OSAS were true, what is the point of God’s judgment after you die?

keeping in mind

2 Cor 5:10

which leads me into the next question:
How God will reward you for evil?

Thanks, again

Why did Jesus weep before He raised Lazarus? Why does God do anything that He does?

The judgment brings forth the righteous who will shine as the sun as the wheat is separated from the tares…

Matthew 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed (elect), these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age…
43 "*Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN *in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

As the bad fish are separated form the good fish…

Mt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is no credit I would take at the judgment but will cast my crown at the feet of the lamb that was slain. God was the one that did the work and will perform it until the day of Christ…

Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[HailMary]

Why did Jesus weep before He raised Lazarus?

Because He had sorrow and was fully-human and goes through a mourning process as well.

Why does God do anything that He does?

Because He has free will and does things to spread His Kingdom, for His Glory, and because of Love, etc

Anyhow, Linkowski, you didn’t answer the questions.

 

[christcnection1]

.

I’m not quoting anything specifically from you, but just in a blanket way. You are correct on a number of things.

Bear in mind many of the things you mentioned, Catholics do believe in. Often we believe the same or similar things, but in different ways. Would the Calvinist view below accurately portray your understanding? Or do you have another view?

CALVINISM AND CATHOLICISM CONTRASTED

Calvin : God’s sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God’s sovereignty includes free will.

Calvin : Predestination as predetermination.
Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge.

Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect.
Catholic : God desires the salvation of all.

Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect.
Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it.

Calvin : Christ died only for the elect.
Catholic : Christ died for all men.

Calvin : God predetermines some for hell.
Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness.

Calvin : The elect include all those born-again.
Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end.

Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will.
Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates.

Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can’t fall away.
Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace.

Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere.
Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered.

Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.

Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt.
Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt.

from bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm

Concerning salvation, Catholics do believe they are saved. We also believe we are being saved, and will be saved, if we endure to the end.

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

It’s nonsense to say “if you endure,” if there is no chance that a person won’t. And if the person is “ordained” in the way you described it, asking them to endure becomes nonsense too. It’s just not something they should concern themselves with. Again, we believe all the elect will go to heaven without question; however, only God ultimately knows who they are.

Would you say that your salvation is dependent on you continuing in your walk with Christ? On what basis do you believe that you will never fall away? How do you explain the countless former believers who were once “on-fire” with the Lord, who now have a radically different worldview and may not even believe in God at all?

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (how does he win Christ if it’s already won for him?)
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.(If by any means? Stop joking Paul. You have nothing to worry about!)
12Not as though I had already attained (umm… yes you have), either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.(Philippians 3:8-14) (why press for the prize?

If Saint Paul wasn’t assured his spot in heaven, I’m not sure you should view it that way. He saw his salvation as a goal to be won. (Saved, being Saved, and will be Saved… past, present, future… only God knows.)

Check on page three to try and counter the verses I used, dismissing OSAS. I don’t think the other OSASer wanted to touch it with a hundred foot pole.

If I misrepresented anything you believe, please clarify. This can be a tricky topic to follow.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

1 John gives us a good litmus test as to whether or not we are of the elect… Yep he does

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, *if we keep his commandments. You would be guareeteed amoung the elect if you never sinned and kept all his commandments. *

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. So more than “Faith alone” is required?

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, **they would no doubt have continued **with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. We have those groups today set apart from Christ’s Church.
1Jo 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. Baptism? infant or otherwise.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Sounds like reassurance that they KNOW. Again IF they follow his commandment and love thy neighbor

1Jo 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him. True righteousness, yep agreed

1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Prove my points for me

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. You don’t sin? If you do how can you be born of God. You can’t contradict scripture on this one.

1Jo 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Again the love thing is placed above Faith alone

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Proves the point, again. Do you read these passages first.

5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. Sounds like a bishop speaking here doesn’t it

1Jo 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

**1Jo 5:13 *These things ***I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
you have the possibility of eternal life, without Christ, no possibility

1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. So you don’t sin. Or do you call it something else?
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

2Jo 1:2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: Yes the Truth will be with us forever. The Church

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Again no sin?

And we are told…

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; as far as you never practice these things, love, have faith, follow commandments

1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. - The salvation that never was…

Have you ever sinned? Then explain to my how it is that you claim to be amoung the elect?

 

[HailMary]

1Jo 3:6

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him

Very nice point!

 

[Linkowski]

Sean:

The elect are not sinless - that is not what those scriptures mean - they simply mean that one does not wallow in premeditated sin with enjoyment and without conviction or chatisement from God.

 

[mikeledes]

I believe that to understand the issue of salvation, Catholics must understand their Church’s teachings on predestination first.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

HailMary:

I don’t suppose that anyone of the protestant faith would mind answering a question I’d like to get answered

If OSAS were true, what is the point of God’s judgment after you die?

The judgment spoken of in that passage is referred to as the “Bema” judgment; Bema being transliterated from the Greek.

The word “Bema” means a “step,” or “elevated platform” commonly used for a tribunal, as well as for the platform upon which athletes were awarded medals.

HailMary:

which leads me into the next question:
How God will reward you for evil?

This is a judgment that is only for believers. As such, it is, as the verse states, “so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, whether good or bad.” (cf 1 Cor. 3:10-15).

In your question, you ask, “how God will reward you for evil?”

First, the verse does not say “reward,” but “recompense,” these are two different words in the Greek, as well as in the English, and they have different meanings. As such, the recompense is a requital for things done, both good and bad, rather than a strict reward for good only; and this literally for, “the things through the body.”

These “things through the body,” do not refer to sin, as sin was judged on the cross (cf Eph 1:7 etc.). Rather, they refer to the ministry performed by the believer while in the body.

In fact, the word “evil” in your translation is incorrect, and should be translated “bad.” Again, different words in the Greek, as well as in the English.

Again, this is a not a judgment of sin, and has nothing to do with a loss of salvation (cf 1 Cor 3:15).

 

[sandusky]

christcnection1:

The only reason I brought up these verses was to show that your interpretation of that passage is plainly in opposition to the many verse I brought to your attention. Do we both agree that scripture cannot contradict itself?

In fact, you didn’t show anything; you posted verses and said, “see, that doesn’t sound like what you’re saying.” How is that showing anything?

christcnection1:

In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation.

*It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out.*This is the same argument deb1 stated, and I answered in post #47.

christcnection1:

Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is “cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned” (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

As your article writer writes generally, I will respond generally to the question that he poses.

He asks why Jesus would tell anyone to remain in his love, if it were a done deal. What should Jesus have said? What your writer seems to be unaware of, is that we are dealing with things that are unseen, though eternally fixed, and we are observing them being performed in time (Acts 2:22-23; Acts 4:27-28; Lk 22:22); things that God in the flesh knew from both the eternal, and the temporal side (cf Mt 26:75, 34). I would submit that, at that time, the apostles were pretty clueless as to what was going on, and what was ahead, and that they would remain so until Pentecost, when the fullness of the Spirit was given, as promised in chapter 14. Witness Peter’s denial; obviously, he wasn’t getting it, as well as their scattering at the time of His arrest and crucifixion.

Warnings, admonitions, exhortations and the like are repeatedly given to the churches throughout the NT epistles. It must be remembered that the NT writers were not omniscient, neither do the elect have an identifying mark on their forehead broadcasting who they are. It must be considered as well, that within the churches reading the epistles, there were many “professing believers” who had not fully committed to Christ and the gospel, and others who professed falsly. There were in the churches as well, sinning, elect believers, and some of them sinning badly (witness the church at Corinth).

An elect believer is not free from the law of evil, and sin that still dwells within him, despite his regeneration (Rom 7:21-25); when in sin, he faces the possibility of intense discipline from God (cf 1 Cor 11:27-32; Heb 12:4-11), thus the warnings and such given to the Churches.

The article writer appeals to Gal 5:4 and says a believer can fall from grace; but, what does that mean? He loses his salvation? If that is what he believes it means, he should support it. This is the only time that phrase appears in the NT, and therefore, it is very specific as to how one “falls from grace.” One falls from grace, Paul says, when he attempts to return to the law to obtain righteousness from the law, and faith (cf Rom 10:1-4; Php 3:8-9). That cannot be done; righteousness is obtained either by faith, or by keeping the law perfectly.

The writer raises 1 Cor 9:27, a standard verse used to assert that eternal security is false; does he offer any reason why? Not really, just that one can be “disqualified.” But what does disqualified mean? Loss of justification? Where does he support that? In context, Paul is talking about his rights as a minister of the gospel; could it be that gross sin disqualifies one from the preaching ministry? There is more that can be said about that passage, but I’ve at least offered more of a reason why that verse does not disprove eternal security than the article writer offered to prove that it does.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #77)

Nowhere in the NT is it said that one of the elect can lose salvation/justification. It is said that one can lose faith, and one can fall from grace, and one can be disqualified, and so on, and so forth, but nowhere is it said that one loses salvation. That is not an argument from silence, but an argument that reinforces the veracity of the statements made by Paul in Rom 8:30ff, and elsewhere—there is no limit to the things that cannot separate the elect from Christ.

Lastly, the appeal to Rom 11:22; does the writer offer any reason why that verse disproves eternal security? Not really; he just says, “this is not the language of ‘once saved, always saved.’” How convincing. If you accept that reason, you are nothing more than an easy mark.

The context leading up to that verse begins in Rom 9, where Paul begins his explanation of election, both national, and individual, and the basis upon which God saves—His sovereignty. Paul uses Pharoah, and Jacob and Esau to illustrate that election is not on the basis of anything done by the elect; he uses Pharoah to illustrate the hardening of the individual heart, as well as the national heart of Israel with respect to bringing the Gentiles into the promises of the new covenant, and how that involved the “cutting off” of Israel, and the “grafting in” of the gentiles.

Apparently the gentiles were boasting in and of themselves of God’s acceptance of them, and His rejection of Israel; that is pride; God hates pride, and will deal with it harshly. Paul reminds them of the severity of God in cutting off Israel for unbelief. Paul’s admonition to the gentiles is to “stand by your faith, and don’t be conceited; but fear” (v20); he states his reason for telling them all of this: so that they would not be ignorant of the mystery (cf Mt 13:11; Rom 16:25; 1 Cor 2:7-10; Eph 3:3-5, 9), and, so that they would not be wise, (proud), in their your estimation of themselves. The admonition was to “knock off the boasting, or else,” Though harsh, it cannot mean that they could lose their salvation if they didn’t stop being conceited; after all, just two chapters earlier, he assured them that they could not lose their salvation—if they were elect. Nevertheless, I’m certain they took the warning to heart.

Paul further states that the hardening of Israel would cease when the “fullness of the gentiles” came in (cf Lk21:24; Jn 10:16; Rom 11:12). The “times of the gentiles” referred to in Lk 21:24 is the church age. Many believe that the “fullness of the gentiles” is that time when the last of the elect of the church age is brought in, and then the church will apostatize (2 Thess 2:1ff) and the grafting back in of the Jews to the new covenant begins; the cutting of Rom 11:22 could be an allusion to that prophesied denial of the faith in 2 Thess 2.
christcnection:

What kind of degree do you have to prove your point? I ask this because there are countless Non-Catholic Christians with a tremendous amount of education, dedication, and holiness that would firmly disagree with your personal interpetation.

The extent of my education, or lack thereof, is irrelevant. I would add, that are, as well, countless non-catholic Christians with a tremendous amount of education, dedication, and holiness that would firmly agree with my interpretation.
christcnection:

On what basis are you assured that your interpretation of the Bible is the correct one? This is something you must accept as faith; you cannot have absolute assurance about one’s personal interpretation of scripture. The Bible does not support that everyone has equal say in scripture’s meaning.

Your contention is that I cannot be assured that my “private interpretation” of the bible is correct because I am fallible; you are as fallible as I am. You have decided that the RCC is the true church; how did you come to that conclusion? Did you read, examine, study, and “privately interpret” church history, church documents, and the bible? If so, how are you assured that your “private interpretation” is correct, and mine is not? You’re fallible, and you could be wrong; correct? If “private interpretation” is the method you employed to reach your decision, then you’ve also set up a double-standard in which “private interpretation” is fine for you to use, but bad for anyone else; why is that?

The explanation of the verses I’ve offered are purposely not very extensive; it’s your move to explain how they disprove my position; after all, you’ve offered them for that purpose; you do the work, and then I’ll deal with your explanations.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1. Moreover by any one who carefully uses his reason it will be found that even at the moment of the expected appearance of the Lord from heaven the Holy Spirit will not, as some suppose, have no functions to discharge: on the contrary, even in the day of His revelation, in which the blessed and only potentate 1 Timothy 6:15 will judge the world in righteousness, Acts 17:31 the Holy Spirit will be present with Him. For who is so ignorant of the good things prepared by God for them that are worthy, as not to know that the crown of the righteous is the grace of the Spirit, bestowed in more abundant and perfect measure in that day, when spiritual glory shall be distributed to each in proportion as he shall have nobly played the man? For among the glories of the saints are “many mansions” in the Father’s house, that is differences of dignities: for as “star differs from star in glory, so also is the resurrection of the dead.” 1 Corinthians 15:41-42 They, then, that were sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption, and preserve pure and undiminished the first fruits which they received of the Spirit, are they that shall hear the words “well done thou good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things.” Matthew 25:21 In like manner they which have grieved the Holy Spirit by the wickedness of their ways, or have not wrought for Him that gave to them, shall be deprived of what they have received, their grace being transferred to others; or, according to one of the evangelists, they shall even be wholly** cut asunder**, Matthew 24:51 —the cutting asunder meaning complete separation from the Spirit. The body is not divided, part being delivered to chastisement, and part let off; for when a whole has sinned it were like the old fables, and unworthy of a righteous judge, for only the half to suffer chastisement. Nor is the soul cut in two,—that soul the whole of which possesses the sinful affection throughout, and works the wickedness in co-operation with the body. The cutting asunder, as I have observed, is the separation for aye of the soul from the Spirit. For now, although the Spirit does not suffer admixture with the unworthy, He nevertheless does seem in a manner to be present with them that have once been sealed, awaiting the salvation which follows on their conversion; but then He will be wholly cut off from the soul that has defiled His grace. For this reason “In Hell there is none that makes confession; in death none that remembers God,” because the succour of the Spirit is no longer present. How then is it possible to conceive that the judgment is accomplished without the Holy Spirit, wherein the word points out that He is Himself the prize Philippians 3:14 of the righteous, when instead of the earnest is given that which is perfect, and the first condemnation of sinners, when they are deprived of that which they seem to have? But the greatest proof of the conjunction of the Spirit with the Father and the Son is that He is said to have the same relation to God which the spirit in us has to each of us. “For what man” it is said, “knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man but the Spirit of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11

newadvent.org/fathers/3203.htm