OSAS and ephesians 4:30

[christcnection1]

In fact, you didn’t show anything; you posted verses and said, “see, that doesn’t sound like what you’re saying.” How is that showing anything?

(continued)

Perhaps I could buy into much of your reasoning if several passages of scripture did not exist. I think your personal assessment is fair in many areas. However, based on early Church writings, they did not share your belief. Some of these individuals were disciples of the Apostles. I cannot accept that your personal interpretation trumps theirs.

Does that mean the early Church (within 300 years) after the death of the last apostle had the correct view? No, not necessarily. However, I have a very difficult time accepting a God who allows His people to be blinded on the issue of justification for approximately 1,500 without correcting the problem.

Out of curiosity, Is it your view that anyone who believes in infused righteousness is damned? Many “Fundamentalists” do. (This would include nearly every single Christian after the apostles until the Reformation.) I hope and pray you do not take this stance…

This is the bottom line. You have a hard time seeing my reasoning. I have a hard time seeing yours. At this point, neither of us will convince one another. You think I’m blinded. I think your blinded. Quite frankly, I have a hard time believing you are intellectually honest. Maybe you feel the same way about me.

The sad fact is we can continue this interchange until we are nauseated and blue in the face and not get anywhere. I could go on and on with intelligent, reasonable, thoroughly Biblical insights and I might not make a budge in your views. I suspect that’s the case so let’s stop; we are wasting our time. However, maybe we can end on I positive note…

Here is where we likely agree:

We love God the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Jesus Christ died for our sins. It’s only through His death on the cross that we can get to heaven.
He commands us to be holy, as He is holy.
He commands us to love Him.
He commands us to love one another.
He is the final Judge and will sort all these things out.

Feel free to add other commonalities. We probably have more important things in common than differences.

God bless you… All the best…

 

[christcnection1]

The extent of my education, or lack thereof, is irrelevant. I would add, that are, as well, countless non-catholic Christians with a tremendous amount of education, dedication, and holiness that would firmly agree with my interpretation.

This is precisely my point. It’s unreasonable to suggest that individual interpretation can accurately interpret the true meaning of the Bible. It doesn’t matter how holy, educated, or intelligent a person, or group of people are. This ends in contradiction and division, over and over.

This was not God’s plan from the start. He instituted His Church to guide His people. Our Lord’s Church came long before the Bible. He promised that by the Holy Spirit, He would guide them into all truth. (He didn’t wait 1,500 years to fulfill that promise either.)

 

[HailMary]

The judgment spoken of in that passage is referred to as the “Bema” judgment; Bema being transliterated from the Greek.

The word “Bema” means a “step,” or “elevated platform” commonly used for a tribunal, as well as for the platform upon which athletes were awarded medals.

Its not only where Athlete are rewarded, its also where people are condemned, like criminals before a King.

The same word is used in Romans 14:10

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

This word is not used solely for rewarding an athlete, but also for condemng a sinner. Anyhow, the point is you can’t say its one or the other, in the case the latter, its clearly the negative view, in 2 Cor 5:10, its both.

This is a judgment that is only for believers. As such, it is, as the verse states, “so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, whether good or bad.” (cf 1 Cor. 3:10-15).

Says who? Where does it say that?

In your question, you ask, “how God will reward you for evil?”

First, the verse does not say “reward,” but “recompense,” these are two different words in the Greek, as well as in the English, and they have different meanings. As such, the recompense is a requital for things done, both good and bad, rather than a strict reward for good only; and this literally for, “the things through the body.”

These “things through the body,” do not refer to sin, as sin was judged on the cross (cf Eph 1:7 etc.). Rather, they refer to the ministry <what are you referring too? their moral conduct?> performed by the believer while in the body.

In fact, the word “evil” in your translation is incorrect, and should be translated “bad.” Again, different words in the Greek, as well as in the English.

Again, this is a not a judgment of sin, and has nothing to do with a loss of salvation (cf 1 Cor 3:15).

You can complain about the translations all you want, even if I stick with bad the point still stands.

 

[anthony022071]

Once justified - the end is predetermined…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul seems to be speaking in the past tense about those who have already died. A man can only be glorified in death and resurrection. And “glorified” may hint at martyrdom.

Please remember scripture passages like this one…

Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If we hold our faith to the end - we have become partakers which tells us that those who do not persevere were not partakers…

The word “if” makes all the difference. As long as we live,we are subject to the passage of time and have free will,and so our faith can falter.Otherwise,Paul would not have not felt obligated to unceasingly exhort,with tears,his disciples to keep the faith and all that faith requires. The tension between God’s will and a man’s free will remains,and our salvation remains precarious.

Instead of “always saved”,it would be “always,and not yet”.

 

[runandsew]

What ever form of predestination we ascribe to, we must keep in mind that free will plays apart of it.
The Catholic church holds that there is some form of predestination, but it rejects double predestination, and believes that we can walk away from the faith. Not only does scripture tells us this, but it was the belief of Christianity from the very beginning, until the time of the Reformation, when new beliefs which were formed outside of sacred Tradition were formulated.

But even in the Catholic church there is debate of exactly what form predestination takes, and how free will and grace exactly play into the matter.
I am new to the subject of predestination, so I might be off a little on my comments, I am trying to read up more on this issue.

 

[sandusky]

HailMary:

Its not only where Athlete are rewarded, its also where people are condemned, like criminals before a King.

The same word is used in Romans 14:10

This word is not used solely for rewarding an athlete, but also for condemng a sinner. Anyhow, the point is you can’t say its one or the other, in the case the latter, its clearly the negative view, in 2 Cor 5:10, its both.

And elsewhere in Matthew, John, and Acts.

This judgment seat is a judgment of condemnation neither here, nor in Rom 14, because the believer ***comes neither into judgment, nor condemnation:***John 3:18

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

HailMary:

Says who? Where does it say that?

Because the letter is addressed to:2 Corinthians 1:1

…the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout AchaiaPaul nowhere refers to unbelievers as saints. And in the immediate context, Paul refers to those to whom he writes as we and us; IOW like-minded saints, as opposed to those, and them, who are neither like-minded, nor saints.

He does not say, every single person in the whole wide world will appear at this judgment seat; neither does he say that in Rom 14.

HailMary:

You can complain about the translations all you want, even if I stick with bad the point still stands.

To which point are you referring?

 

[HailMary]

And elsewhere in Matthew, John, and Acts.

This judgment seat is a judgment of condemnation neither here, nor in Rom 14, because the believer ***comes neither into judgment, nor condemnation:***John 3:18

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Because the letter is addressed to:2 Corinthians 1:1

…the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout AchaiaPaul nowhere refers to unbelievers as saints. And in the immediate context, Paul refers to those to whom he writes as we and us; IOW like-minded saints, as opposed to those, and them, who are neither like-minded, nor saints.

He does not say, every single person in the whole wide world will appear at this judgment seat; neither does he say that in Rom 14.

To which point are you referring?

I disagree with your interpretation of Rom 14.

The judgment seat in 2 Cor. 5:10 is can be a seat of condemnation or of salvation depending on the life this person lives. Isn’t the same word using in Matthew 7:1-2?

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

This statment, “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged” is the same spirit of 2 Cor 5:10 since if you are called to make judgments.

John 7:24

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment

Anyhow, you did give the best answer but didn’t answer the question of how “evil” or “bad” things done in the body can ever be rewarded in heaven.

 

[Linkowski]

Linkowski;2397487:

Once justified - the end is predetermined…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul seems to be speaking in the past tense about those who have already died. A man can only be glorified in death and resurrection. And “glorified” may hint at martyrdom.

Please remember scripture passages like this one…

Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If we hold our faith to the end - we have become partakers which tells us that those who do not persevere were not partakers…

The word “if” makes all the difference. As long as we live,we are subject to the passage of time and have free will,and so our faith can falter.Otherwise,Paul would not have not felt obligated to unceasingly exhort,with tears,his disciples to keep the faith and all that faith requires. The tension between God’s will and a man’s free will remains,and our salvation remains precarious.

Instead of “always saved”,it would be “always,and not yet”.

What you fail to realize is that this scripture puts perseverance as an evidence and not a condition for being a partaker with Christ(although one certainly must persevere in the faith). The elect will.

 

[anthony022071]

anthony022071;2399013:

What you fail to realize is that this scripture puts perseverance as an evidence and not a condition for being a partaker with Christ(although one certainly must persevere in the faith). The elect will.

I do realize that the scripture puts preseverance is an evidence and not a condition for being a partaker with Christ,because “perseverance” is ongoing though time.
But why should anyone be so bold as to say of himself,“I am one of the elect” when his race is not finished? Paul could say that of himself,because he had seen Jesus Christ in visions,and had been taken up to heaven.

 

[Pax]

Correct, Pax; the elect do not have “soiled garments.”

I don’t believe that I said anything about either soiled garments, or repentance in my reply to your post; and neither did you say anything about either soiled garments, or repentance in your post to which I replied; right?

Your post was about the good things given by Christ to those who conquer; isn’t that correct? But you can check both posts, and correct me if I’m wrong.

If you disagree with what I’ve said in that post, than tear apart what I’ve said, from that post, rather than bringing in another bunch of verses, and raising another bunch of issues, that were raised neither in the post to which I replied, nor in my reply.

Once we’ve settled those objections, we can move on to other issues, and other verses.

Sandusky,

One of the passages I quoted was Rev 3:4-5 which says:

Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

All of Jesus comments concerning “He who conquers” are tied together.

Comments?

 

[Pax]

The elect will always abide in Christ; the elect will always repent of their sin; the elect will not be lost; that is why they are called the elect.

Even your Church teaches election to glorification for some.

No limit to things that cannot separate the elect from God.

I can agree with these statements as presented, but this is not the bone of contention with OSAS. Clearly, those that arrive in heaven are the elect. And yes, the elect “remained” in Christ, always repented of their sins, and were not lost.

OSAS teaches something different and is not congruent with Calvinism from whence it takes its roots. Calvinism says what you have stated and is not much different from Catholic teaching except in the areas of double predestination and irresistable grace.

OSAS disagrees with Calvinism because Calvinists do not believe the following errors of OSAS:

1. Faith alone saves you regardless of what you do afterwards.
2. You can sin seriously over and over and even if you do not repent you are saved.
   3,. You “know” that you are saved and if you die today you “know” that you will go to heaven.

I have read and heard these errors of OSAS over and over again.

Now, back to the word abide/remain as it is used in scripture. Please be advised that a person can have a full understanding and “faith” in Jesus Christ and accept all of Christian teaching. There is nothing in scripture that says that the person I have just described will automatically “persevere.” That is why John uses the word “if” along with the word abide in connection with salvation numerous times[see 1 Jn 2:24, 1 Jn 4:12, 2 Jn 1:9-10]. Likewise, John warns his listeners to “remain/abide” in Christ.

John’s conditional statements and warnings negate OSAS as do the provisional statements of Jesus, Peter, and Paul.

 

[Pax]

Context issue:

I agree…context is extremely important.

If you wish to call the first two saved…may I again assert to you that the those that fell on the rock and those that fell among thorns did not hear properly - and what they THINK they have is taken away from them.

Luke 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”

OSAS is true and only applied to the elect - all others will never be saved…

Let’s stick to the parable of the sower before moving on.Your reference to Luke 8 which is the parable of the Sower does not mean what you claim it does.” Please note that Luke 8:13 says, “…they believe for awhile,…” It does not indicate that they were not “true believers or that they didn’t THINK correctly.” It would be better to say that they were true believers for awhile or just call everyone who believes “a believer.” Believers can endure to the end or they can abandoned the true faith they once had. Verse fourteen of the parable is also instructive. It says, “And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.” Notice how their faith is not questioned. Instead they are overcome by the riches and pleasures of life and their fruit does not mature. Are there true believers and pseudo believers? Scripture really doesn’t make this distinction and I think this is important. I believe that suggesting that “those kinds of believers never had a true faith” is non scriptural and is adding to scripture. These people were initially justified and had a true faith. Unfortunately, the abandoned the faith, they did not endure, they did not bare fruit, and they fell away from the truth that had been given to them. They may have been given the grace to persevere but rejected it. Or, they may not have been given the grace to persevere. Likewise, a person could receive the grace to persevere and do so, or a person could receive such an abundance of grace to persevere that they could rightly be described as being predestined.

Your theology claims that a person is saved by faith alone. Those described in the parable “believed.” Your theology teaches “once saved always saved based on faith/belief alone.” Clearly, these people believed but they fell away for various reasons. This parable completely disagrees with your theology.

 

[Pax]

…
…
…

Also note…that if one abides or remains not in the doctrine of Christ - He hath not God…He did not lose God - he hath not God…

2 John 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

And, as I mentioned before…

1 John 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

Sorry Link, but you are simply superimposing your view on the text. If you fail to remain in Christ you no longer are in Christ and you have lost your salvation. It is as the scripture says, “If you do not remain, you do not have God.” This in fact means that you have fallen away…it does not mean that you were never in Christ. Understand the word “remain” which means you are to stay where you are in Christ as opposed to separating yourself from Christ.

You do not understand 1 Jn 3:6. Please refer to a Protestant commentary which will show you that this verse, based on the Greek, means something other than falling temporarily into sin as a consequence of sudden temptation. The Greek indicates that this is continuous sin. In other words a person that is living in continual transgression. This may be a a person that never new Christ or one that is described by the apostle Peter when he says:

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire”[See 2 Peter 2:20-22].

Once saved always saved just doesn’t conform to scripture.

 

[Linkowski]

Let’s stick to the parable of the sower before moving on.Your reference to Luke 8 which is the parable of the Sower does not mean what you claim it does.” Please note that Luke 8:13 says, “…they believe for awhile,…” It does not indicate that they were not “true believers or that they didn’t THINK correctly.” It would be better to say that they were true believers for awhile or just call everyone who believes “a believer.” Believers can endure to the end or they can abandoned the true faith they once had. Verse fourteen of the parable is also instructive. It says, “And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.” Notice how their faith is not questioned. Instead they are overcome by the riches and pleasures of life and their fruit does not mature. Are there true believers and pseudo believers? Scripture really doesn’t make this distinction and I think this is important. I believe that suggesting that “those kinds of believers never had a true faith” is non scriptural and is adding to scripture. These people were initially justified and had a true faith. Unfortunately, the abandoned the faith, they did not endure, they did not bare fruit, and they fell away from the truth that had been given to them. They may have been given the grace to persevere but rejected it. Or, they may not have been given the grace to persevere. Likewise, a person could receive the grace to persevere and do so, or a person could receive such an abundance of grace to persevere that they could rightly be described as being predestined.

Your theology claims that a person is saved by faith alone. Those described in the parable “believed.” Your theology teaches “once saved always saved based on faith/belief alone.” Clearly, these people believed but they fell away for various reasons. This parable completely disagrees with your theology.

The devils believe too …and we ARE justified on the basis of faith alone. Not faith that IS alone.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James 2 describes dead, useless, demonic belief…

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can *that faith *save him? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

We ARE justified on the basis of faith alone. Not faith that IS alone.

And, again - they did not hear properly and what they THOUGHT they had was taken away.

Luke 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”

 

[Linkowski]

Sorry Link, but you are simply superimposing your view on the text. If you fail to remain in Christ you no longer are in Christ and you have lost your salvation. It is as the scripture says, “If you do not remain, you do not have God.” This in fact means that you have fallen away…it does not mean that you were never in Christ. Understand the word “remain” which means you are to stay where you are in Christ as opposed to separating yourself from Christ.

You do not understand 1 Jn 3:6. Please refer to a Protestant commentary which will show you that this verse, based on the Greek, means something other than falling temporarily into sin as a consequence of sudden temptation. The Greek indicates that this is continuous sin. In other words a person that is living in continual transgression. This may be a a person that never new Christ or one that is described by the apostle Peter when he says:

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire”[See 2 Peter 2:20-22].

Once saved always saved just doesn’t conform to scripture.

Thank you - I understand that - and that is what mortal sin is and is only commited by those who have not seen God nor known Him…

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

And that is the gist of 1 John 5:18…

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If you want this to mean that those born of God never sin, this is hardly the case.

 

[sandusky]

**Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim.
2:11–13)."

It’s nonsense to say “if you endure,” if there is no chance that a person won’t. And if the person is “ordained” in the way you described it, asking them to endure becomes nonsense too. It’s just not something they should concern themselves with.** Again, we believe all the elect will go to heaven without question; however, only God ultimately knows who they are.

Of course you think it’s “nonsense” for the Lord, and the apostles, to encourage one, who is assured his salvation to “endure.” The reasonable mind fully understands that nothing is free.

You don’t get, what you don’t earn. Right?

Even as a stout believer in eternal security, I know that salvation is not free, it is earned:Acts 20:28

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd ***the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.***God paid the price; that is why He may freely give it to whomever He chooses (Jacob I loved, Esau I hated).

That’s why Paul says, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”

Why?Philippians 2:13

FOR [or BECAUSE] ***it is God who is at work in you…***and if you are taking the gift for granted, He will rap your spiritual knuckles, to get you back in line, and that hurts. If your walking right, you have no need to fear and tremble; it’s when you know that you aren’t walking right that you have the need.Hebrews 12:7

It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

and discipline is unpleasant

Hebrews 12:11

All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.God disciplines His children, and so should you, and if you don’t, it’s because you hate your children. The same is true with God.Proverbs 13:24

He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

Hebrews 12:8

**But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.**God’s requital for the sin of His children, whom He’s chosen, and whom He loves is not eternal disinheritance, but temporal discipline.

christcnection1:

Would you say that your salvation is dependent on you continuing in your walk with Christ? On what basis do you believe that you will never fall away?

Certainly (Mt 10:22).

Many assurances are given for not falling away, here is a particular favorite of mine:1 Peter 1:5

…[YOU] are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.And since your faith is a possession of God, given to you, whom He’s chosen, He protects not only you, but the faith as well.

christcnection1:

How do you explain the countless former believers who were once “on-fire” with the Lord, who now have a radically different worldview and may not even believe in God at all?

Quite simple; if they never repent, it’s because God didn’t choose them.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #95)

Php 3:8

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,You ask:

How does he win Christ if it’s already won for him?

The believer lives in a tension that theologians call, the already/not yet tension. The prize for the believer is Christ, whom they have already won, but not yet finally attained.

Php 3:11

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.You state:

If by any means? Stop joking Paul. You have nothing to worry about!

Paul’s not joking, already/not yet. Do you really believe that Paul is unsure of the final outcome of his life? ***Read on:***Philippians 3:20-21

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.What do you think? ls Paul really doubtful of his salvation? Could it be you that it’s you who doesn’t understand, and not the others? Perhaps you should heed Peter’s admonition in 2 Pet 3:17; that verse which Catholics always say non-catholics should heed.

Moving on:Php 3:12

Not as though I had already attained…You state:

Umm… yes you have [attained]

Already/not yet.

Paul commands, be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Paul was a very diligent, and hardworking apostle. He taught that God elects to salvation those He intends to save, and that He does that perfectly.

We often fail; God never does.

The doctrine of eternal security nowhere teaches that the elect are to be complacent, and sin so that grace may abound (Rom 6:1); but that the believer, though secure, must imitate Christ.

 

[sandusky]

HailMary:

Anyhow, you did give the best answer but didn’t answer the question of how “evil” or “bad” things done in the body can ever be rewarded in heaven.

You’re right; I missed this:

These “things through the body,” do not refer to sin, as sin was judged on the cross (cf Eph 1:7 etc.). Rather, they refer to the ministry <what are you referring too? their moral conduct?> performed by the believer while in the body.

Your question is, ”does their ministry refer to their moral conduct?”

The answer is, no; it does not.

Judgment of moral conduct is judgment of sin; as I stated earlier, a believe does not come into judgment/condemnation (cf the verses I cited in my earlier post: Jn 3:18, Jn 5:24, I think it was).

The entirety of the believers sin was judged at the Cross:Colossians 2:13-14

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, ***having forgiven us ALL our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, *HAVING NAILED IT TO THE CROSS.**It was the practice of the Romans to write out the crime, or crimes of the one crucified, and then, to nail it to the cross upon which the criminal was crucified.

Paul is saying that God did the same for the believer: He listed the crimes against him, and nailed the list of crimes to the Cross of Christ (the substitution of Christ for us, cancelled the debt, as the passage above states (cf, the end of your original passage: 2 Cor 5:21, which states: He made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us); therefore, no punishment for sin awaits the believer. (One must first understand the cross for what it is—a penal-substitutionary act—in order to grasp this).

The judgment seat of Christ is concerned with deeds done ”through the body”, as I said, those temporal works of the believer, such as: identifying, and using his spiritual gifts for the edification of the body, practicing the “one anothers”, being a good steward of his possessions, and money, and giving it not only to the church, and missions, but also to other believers who have need (your money is not yours, but God’s given to you to care for yourself, and your family, both physical, and spiritual), and so on.

IOW, the bema judgment is concerned with: ***how you lived your life with respect to Christ, and His body:*****Did you live your life:

All for Christ, and none for yourself?
The greater part for Christ, and the lesser part for yourself?
Half for Christ, and half for yourself?
The lesser part for Christ, and the greater part for yourself?
All for yourself, and none for Christ?**That list is, from top to bottom, good to bad.

The one who did good gets a great reward.

The one who did bad(ly) does not get a great reward.

The reward is not heaven, which is a gift.

The reward consists of the crowns mentioned in scripture, and whatever else of which we have not been told.

Does that answer your question?

 

[mikeledes]

The one who did good gets a great reward.

The one who did bad(ly) does not get a great reward.

The reward is not heaven, which is a gift.

The reward consists of the crowns mentioned in scripture, and whatever else of which we have not been told.

Does that answer your question?

This is very interesting. When the day of judgement is actually described in the Bible, there is actually no mention of the giving or taking away of crowns:

Romans 2:5-8

5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

John 5:26-29

26"For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Galatians 6:7-10

**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. **

Matthew 25:31-43, 46

**31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35’For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38’And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39’When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ **
**46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." **

In all of the verses that descibe what is explicitly given at judgement, they all discuss either the giving of - or entrance into - “eternal life” or eternal damnation. In my next post, I will address the “crowns” issue.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

This is very interesting. When the day of judgement is actually described in the Bible, there is actually no mention of the giving or taking away of crowns:

Romans 2:5-8

5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

John 5:26-29

26"For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Galatians 6:7-10

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Matthew 25:31-43, 46

31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35’For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38’And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39’When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

In all of the verses that descibe what is explicitly given at judgement, they all discuss either the giving of - or entrance into - “eternal life” or eternal damnation. In my next post, I will address the “crowns” issue.

God Bless,
Michael

Were I you, Mike, I would take what I have said, and throw it away.