OSAS disturbed once and for all

[deb1]

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined the saving of life of all on the ship to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Due to the fact that I don’t really understand the Church’s stance on predestination, I really can not discuss it. I can look at the verses that you supply but I am not very knowledgeble about Calvinism.

The whole bible is an ongoing example of God’s sovereignty so I am uncertain why you picked these particular verses. Catholics would agree with you.

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under color as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Yes, you must preserve to be saved. You don’t disagree with Catholics.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

You cannot deny this…So, marrying our sets of scriptures together, it seems that we come to a point where we have to admit, the doctrine of election is the result. It is God choosing a people unto himself before the foundation of the world. Did He have to save anyone?? No, he could have let us all go. Did Jesus have to come. No He did not. But, God so loved the world…

I hate it when people take verses out of order. Why is the bible the only book that people feel that they can do this with?

God knows everything. He is beyond time and he understands what choices that we are going to make before we make those choices. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t still have free will to make our own decisions.

 

[deb1]

:banghead:

I think part of your problem might be a misunderstanding of what Roman Catholics believe concerning salvation.

Some of what you post doesn’t sound that different then what Catholics believe. So, it isn’t necessarily new to us.

As far as predestination, I know that the Church isn’t totally against this concept but honestly, I am a bit fuzzy on Catholic teaching in the area. I know that it is different then Calvinism but I don’t know exactly how. So, debating you on this point would be somewhat irresponsible on my part.

.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If?

If we hold fast? IF?

Sounds like not “holding fast” is a definite possibility.

So much for “once saved ALWAYS saved”…

(Here comes the “those who don’t hold fast weren’t really saved to begin with” argument.)

I bet there are going to be quite a few people finding themselves in hell saying, “Damn, I thought I was covered…”

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[FCEGM]

On the contrary…it says - if you have become IN CHRIST…you will persevere. If you say any other thing - you are twisting scripture.

It is like saying - you will persevere if you have become a partaker of Christ. The key words here are HAVE BECOME.

Perfected, justified, forgiven, sanctified (and being sanctified)…Linkowski

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews also says: “As for those people who were brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of God’s message and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away – it is impossible for them to be brought to the freshness of repentance a second time, since they are crucifying the Son of God again for themselves, and making a public exhibition of him. A field that drinks up the rain that has fallen frequently on it, and yields the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, receives God’s blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is worthless, and near to being cursed. It will end by being burnt,” Hebrews 6:4-8.

And, of course, there is no contradiction between either passage, for the Elect are the Elect, but we cannot have absolute faith in our being among the Elect. The Church teaches that the love of Christ will show itself and certain signs can indicate the presence of God’s salvific grace; but we cannot have the certitude of infallible faith about our faith. We can, however, have a moral certitude through manifest love accompanied by fear of God.

Thus the Church recognizes, in accordance with Scripture, that apostasy is a possibility. But in the OSAS scenario apostasy can never be a problem. But, that gives a lie, doesn’t it, to the warnings and examples of it in Scripture. How could one be guilty of it if one were never truly a believer since it is a direct denial of what one had originally embraced – Christ and His salvific mission? We believe in Christ and His work of salvation through the gift of faith, a gift of the Holy Spirit. If we reject that gift which was once accepted, the result of that rejection is testified to by the Lord Himself as recorded in John 12:10. Our Lord brings into the realm of possibility the unpardonable offense which will cause a “saved” person to lose his or her salvation.

“As there were false prophets in the past history of our people so you too will have your false teachers, who will insinuate their own disruptive views and, by disowning the Lord who bought them freedom, will bring upon themselves speedy destruction,” 2 Peter 2:1.

One can only disown what one has possessed. This disowning is apostasy.

“. . . anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world by coming to know our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled and mastered by it a second time, ends up being worse than he was before,” 2 Peter 2:20.

Since there is no other way to escape the entanglement of the world other than through Jesus Christ, the persons referred to are Christians – entangled AGAIN means they had been freed, but returned to their former way of life and are now worse off than if they had not known Christ – sounds pretty grim to me.

“. . .Some people have put their conscience aside and wrecked their faith in consequence,” 1 Tim. 2:29.

One must, then, have had a faith to be wrecked.

Further, St. Paul warns in 1 Cor.10:1-12:

“I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the Cloud and all passed through the sea. Yet God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the desert. These things happened as examples FOR US. Let us not indulge in immorality. Let us not test Christ as some of them did. Do not grumble as some of them did, and suffered death by the destroyer (i.e., Satan). …Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.”

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

So, the Elect are absolutely a testimony of the power of God to accomplish His will. But a “surety” of being among the Elect only reflects one’s own presumption because of a one-time acceptance of Christ, not God’s power to transform a sinner into one of the Elect through the humility of obedience to Christ. Scripture is rife with warnings about falling out of the salvation one has once enjoyed, so it is clear that perseverance is the key, not assurance.

St. John writes: “They have gone from among us, but they never really belonged to us; if they had belonged to us, they would have stayed with us. But this was to prove that not one of them belonged to us,” 1 Jn. 2:19. Those who have separated themselves from the Body, were never with it. But we can only know this post facto. Up to that time they were seen as being “saved”, one of the Elect, and probably considered themselves to be such, even testifying that they were “eternally secure”. In the OSAS scenario one is supposed to come to this “knowledge” of “eternal security” because one has “accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.” But if one who was among us “knows” he is saved, and yet leaves Christ and His Church, then that person was wrong, wasn’t he, in his estimation of his own salvation? So how does his original proclamation of surety answer his subsequent rejection of Christ?

The OSAS theory gives the believer in it just as much uncertainty as he would bewail among Catholic and Orthodox faithful; in fact, it gives someone who will fall away in the future a false sense of security, since he believes that this cannot happen – then it does.

 

[Pax]

That in some form is the objection I keep coming across - OSAS is presented as necessarily implying a belief on the part of the elect in their own excellence, as a result of which they neglect their obedience to God in favour of idleness & presumption; when these things are wholly opposed to assurance. I came across this very idea about an hour ago . That, is what I mean.​

I dont see that it affects the issue of transformation by grace - I think that Calvinistic monergism is a support to free will. A good deal depends on what exactly one means by FW, of course. The Catholic notion of FW is too vulnerable to the reproach either​

• of Galatianism
• of Synergism (understood as the operation of God’s Will & ours in parallel
• or else as their “intra-operation”)
• or of semi-Pelagianism
  God’s purpose for the predestined is to “conform them to the image of his Son,”[see Rom 8:29] OSAS believers see no necessity in this and believe that no matter what you do after being initially justified you are forever saved.

No Calvinist I’ve read would deny that is God’s purpose. The second part of the remark is (from a Calvinist perspective) true in one sense, false in another. It is false if seen as an excuse for sinful living, but true as a reassurance that even our sins cannot separate us from God. They do at least take Romans 8.32-39 seriously - Catholics are apt to give the imopression that God is so weak a Saviour that a lot of things can & will & must “separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ” - despite St.Paul. ## ## In some sense, salvation is by faith alone - Catholics & Calvinists uses the word in different senses, so they disagree; unsurprisingly. And by “believing”, I don’t mean carnal security without obedience. I recommend Brooks.​

There are lot of issues here, on both sides, & it’s impossible to look at them fairly in two sentences. All I can say is that I’m very impressed with the Biblical basis for their case. That sounds like an evasion, but it’s better to seem evasive than to make a dog’s dinner of the issures involved ## That depends on what we think it is saying about what, in what connection. ##

Michael,

OSAS is an outgrowth of Calvinism’s “Perseverence of the Saints” but they are not identicle.

 

[OneForTruth]

Mr. Carson…

You have become smart - IF you pass this test. Was passing the test the evidence of becoming smart…YES. Was it the means of becoming smart? No! This is the language of Hebrews 3:14…

Now…I will give my illustration that marries God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility…

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined the saving of life of all on the ship to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

You cannot deny this…So, marrying our sets of scriptures together, it seems that we come to a point where we have to admit, the doctrine of election is the result. It is God choosing a people unto himself before the foundation of the world. Did He have to save anyone?? No, he could have let us all go. Did Jesus have to come. No He did not. But, God so loved the world…

 

[porthos11]

Mr. Carson…

You have become smart - IF you pass this test. Was passing the test the evidence of becoming smart…YES. Was it the means of becoming smart? No! This is the language of Hebrews 3:14…

First of all, why are you just merely re-posting Linkowski’s post word-for-word?

But again, that is NOT the language of Heb 3:14, and as I posted earlier:

First of all, your example English statement would never pass the careful eye of any decent editor, because of its logical problems. Smartness is dependent on study, not exams, so this English statement wouldn’t even carry much weight even in English. Your English statement will have to be properly reworded: “Your passing the test MEANS you are smart.”

Moreover, that’s not the language of Hebrews 3:14 contrary to your assertion. Hebrews 3:14 is a 3rd class conditional statement, which is the equivalent of an if…then clause in English. It uses the conjunction “eanper”; if, if only, when. Moreover, the verb “hold fast”, kataschomen, is in the subjunctive. This makes the second clause the protasis (the if clause), and the first the apodosis In a third-class conditional, the apodosis is a future event dependent on the accomplishment of the protasis.

If it said what you assert, then it should be a first class conditional, and the verb katechw in the protasis should be indicative (assumes an existing reality).

Now…I will give my illustration that marries God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility…

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

That’s just the problem. What’s the point of persevering? To persevere means to struggle so as to attain salvation. This requires an act of the will.

But in any case, although I personally have a problem with this last statement about those not being chosen from the foundation of the world, the Church has not also stated that this is wrong.

However, Catholics do not and can not affirm that God pre-destines some people for hell, but I do not infer this from the last statement given here.

As for not being chosen by God from the foundation of the world, this is

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

You cannot deny this…So, marrying our sets of scriptures together, it seems that we come to a point where we have to admit, the doctrine of election is the result. It is God choosing a people unto himself before the foundation of the world. Did He have to save anyone?? No, he could have let us all go. Did Jesus have to come. No He did not. But, God so loved the world…

And as I said, I can’t seem to see where this is inconsistent with the Catholic stance, since the Catholic stance always upholds man’s free will, while God predestines all for salvation, without interfering with man’s free will. As for selective pre-destination, the Church leaves Catholics free to agree, but not double-predestination.

 

[NonDenom]

For me, the concept of OSAS just seems impossible and illogical. Clearly I just don’t understand how OSAS could be a workable path to salvation for a human being.

I’m a sinner and everyone I know are sinners, too. OSAS seems to imply that once saved, your salvation is guaranteed, no matter what you do days, weeks or years after that day you accept Jesus as your "personal " savior. How does the protestant Christian who favors OSAS reconcile the human frailty? Do they never sin, again? Or, if they do sin at any point after they’re saved, were they never saved in the first place? Should the protestant Christian somehow ever fall into sin, do they need to get saved all over again?

Hi All
The first thing that I want to say is that I’m NOT OSAS. I would like to point out that the OSAS crowd for the most part, does’t think that you can go out and do anything you want. Most OSAS people that I know try and follow the laws of God as best they can, just like all Christians should.
The OSAS people that I know don’t go out and willfuly sin. My wife’s family are all Catholic, and when we go stay with my Mother-in-law, some of them will go to mass on Saturday so they don’t have to get up on Sunday and go to church with a hangover. Am I to assume that they feel they can go out and do anything they want to and still go to Heaven? you tell me.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

PAX

I want to thank you for the sixty passages and short essay.

I firmly believe you should post those.

Again, I want to thank you for your kind help!

 

[HailMary]

PAX

I want to thank you for the sixty passages and short essay.

I firmly believe you should post those.

Again, I want to thank you for your kind help!

Yes, I would like them. God Bless all of you.

 

[MariaG]

Hi All
The first thing that I want to say is that I’m NOT OSAS. I would like to point out that the OSAS crowd for the most part, does’t think that you can go out and do anything you want. Most OSAS people that I know try and follow the laws of God as best they can, just like all Christians should.
The OSAS people that I know don’t go out and willfuly sin. My wife’s family are all Catholic, and when we go stay with my Mother-in-law, some of them will go to mass on Saturday so they don’t have to get up on Sunday and go to church with a hangover. Am I to assume that they feel they can go out and do anything they want to and still go to Heaven? you tell me.

Although some who are OSAS believe it, it usually is a caricature of OSAS that they think they are saved but can go out and do anything they want and still be saved. It is also a caricature, though again, you will find those who seem to believe it, that Catholics think they can sin like hell on Friday and just to confession on Saturday. Although it does not appear as if your wife’s family even does that.

In both cases, neither group is actually living a Christian life and will likely find themselves calling out “Lord, Lord” and He will not know them if they continue on this path.

Scripture does tell us to let the weeds and the wheat grow together and you typically find more weeds in the Catholic Church than in other Christian churches, because usually, in other churches, people just stop going when they stop living a Christian life.

Taking the worst examples of the weeds from any denomination, really won’t prove that denomination wrong, it just proves that Christ died for a reason. We are all sinners.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Pax]

PAX

I want to thank you for the sixty passages and short essay.

I firmly believe you should post those.

Again, I want to thank you for your kind help!

Thanks for the positive feedback. Unfortunately, posting all of the material would be too lengthy. If anyone is interested in the material I will gladly email it to them.

 

[Pax]

Although some who are OSAS believe it, it usually is a caricature of OSAS that they think they are saved but can go out and do anything they want and still be saved. It is also a caricature, though again, you will find those who seem to believe it, that Catholics think they can sin like hell on Friday and just to confession on Saturday. Although it does not appear as if your wife’s family even does that.

In both cases, neither group is actually living a Christian life and will likely find themselves calling out “Lord, Lord” and He will not know them if they continue on this path.

Scripture does tell us to let the weeds and the wheat grow together and you typically find more weeds in the Catholic Church than in other Christian churches, because usually, in other churches, people just stop going when they stop living a Christian life.

Taking the worst examples of the weeds from any denomination, really won’t prove that denomination wrong, it just proves that Christ died for a reason. We are all sinners.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

I would agree that there are caricatures on both sides of the argument. My OSAS believing friends live what would appear to be good Christian lives. The problem is that they also say “that nothing can undo their salvation regardless of what sins they may commit.” They live differently from what their doctrine actually teaches. This is very odd, but it does attest to the truth of what is written on their hearts as it pertains to “living” as Jesus said we “must.” Their hearts are right, but their doctrinal understandings have been compromised.

 

[MariaG]

I would agree that there are caricatures on both sides of the argument. My OSAS believing friends live what would appear to be good Christian lives. The problem is that they also say “that nothing can undo their salvation regardless of what sins they may commit.” They live differently from what their doctrine actually teaches. This is very odd, but it does attest to the truth of what is written on their hearts as it pertains to “living” as Jesus said we “must.” Their hearts are right, but their doctrinal understandings have been compromised.

I agree completely.

But I bet if you really pushed your friends, at least some of them would argue that a person was never really saved to begin with if they acted in a manner contrary to Christian morality Maybe not, but I know everytime I push the point with any of my OSAS friends, that is the conclusion they always come to. Sometimes, it seems as if they have never really even thought through the question at all, which always strikes me as odd.

But it also reinforces my view that really, for people who are critical thinkers, they gravitate towards Catholicism, or the Sacramental Protestant denominations.

It seems as if many people in the fundamental arena believe that to walk by faith, we must cast aside all reason and critical thinking because that is what faith demands.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Seamus_Sully]

MariaG

I do not have the time to read all of the posts.

Do you believe in once saved always saved?

I am sure you stated that in earlier posts, but I just do not have the time to read today.

To quote you: “But I bet if you really pushed your friends, at least some of them would argue that a person was never really saved to begin with if they acted in a manner contrary to Christian morality Maybe not, but I know everytime I push the point with any of my OSAS friends, that is the conclusion they always come to.”

What are the Biblical passages for “a person was never really saved”?

I will not agrue against you, I just want to know: What are the passages that teach once saved always saved?

If I have offended in any way with these questions, please forgive me. I have no desire to be rude, I am just curious.

In God’s love and beauty…

Thank you.

 

[MariaG]

MariaG

I do not have the time to read all of the posts.

Do you believe in once saved always saved?

I am sure you stated that in earlier posts, but I just do not have the time to read today.

To quote you: “But I bet if you really pushed your friends, at least some of them would argue that a person was never really saved to begin with if they acted in a manner contrary to Christian morality Maybe not, but I know everytime I push the point with any of my OSAS friends, that is the conclusion they always come to.”

What are the Biblical passages for “a person was never really saved”?

I will not agrue against you, I just want to know: What are the passages that teach once saved always saved?

If I have offended in any way with these questions, please forgive me. I have no desire to be rude, I am just curious.

In God’s love and beauty…

Thank you.

Well you and I can’t really argue at all because I do not believe in once saved always saved and never have even as a Protestant.

Offended me? No, but if you would have critically read my signature, or read my profile , you could have (hopefully) seen your mistake immediately

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mikeledes]

First of all, why are you just merely re-posting Linkowski’s post word-for-word?

Because he is Linkowski!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Ezekiel 3:20-21

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Can a righteous person turn away from righteosness?

1 Kings 11:1-10

1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:
2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods. **
** 9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

Paul warns the people in the ship not to leave the ship or they will not be saved. However, in the ship analogy you love to use, Linkowski/OneforTruth, the men never leave the ship. This is not the case among all of the righteous. Despite the fact that the righteous are warned not to commit idolatry, adultery, etc. because those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, many still commit these sins. They have been warned and still do what they are not supposed to do, unlike the men in the ship. That is why you are comparing apples with oranges when you use the ship analogy to defend OSAS and perseverance of the saints.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I think part of your problem might be a misunderstanding of what Roman Catholics believe concerning salvation.

Some of what you post doesn’t sound that different then what Catholics believe. So, it isn’t necessarily new to us.

As far as predestination, I know that the Church isn’t totally against this concept but honestly, I am a bit fuzzy on Catholic teaching in the area. I know that it is different then Calvinism but I don’t know exactly how. So, debating you on this point would be somewhat irresponsible on my part.

.

The major differences are that we don’t believe that God only offers justifying grace to the elect and that God incorporates free will in the salvation of His elect.

God bless,
Michael