OSAS does grace place us above Gods commandments

[Matt16_18]

EA_Man:

The “lesson of the OT” is that man is completely incapable of “keeping the law”.

The “lesson of the OT” is that man is incapable of being wholly pleasing to God without God’s grace since man is born in bondage to sin, and man needs a Savior to free him from that bondage.

Life in Christ is what enables man to perfectly keep the commandments of God. Man IS capable of keeping the moral commandments of God, but he can only do this if he has the Holy Spirit abiding within.You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt. 5:48

… no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit …
1Cor. 12:3

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Romans 6:1-2

 

[Philthy]

EA_Man:

then you are dead. There are only two kinds of people in the world when everything is said and done; there are those that are born again in Christ and those that are dead in Adam. That’s it.

True. But that does not mean someone can at different times be each of those two kinds of people. In fact, we know that we are all born “dead in Adam” and that some are born from above in Christ. The question is whether one who is “in Christ” presently must,of necessity, remain there. 1 John 3:17 " Of someone who has wrldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God REMAIN in him?"

EA_Man:

The question becomes what happens when one get born again in Christ. The answer is that the old man in Adam is put to death.

I Corinthians 4:17: “If any man is in Christ, He is a new creation. Old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new.”

Still does not speak to whether that new creation is in an eternal state.

EA_Man:

Your salvation was never based on anything you did.

Vague, unsubstantiated claim. It is not based on anything you did alone. You must believe, no?

EA_Man:

So, you cannot lose it by anything you do. Salvation is life that, by definition, cannot be lost.

No it isn’t

EA_Man:

It isn’t the KIND of life that can be lost, and neither is it received in a way that can be reversed.

Invalid, unsubstantiated conclusion. For example - and there are many - we must forgive others their sins against us otherwise our Heavenly father will not forgive us ours. Rethink the parable of the unforgiving servant…

EA_Man:

If I am saved, I got that way by giving my life to Christ.

You are failing to distinguish between initial and final salvation. You are talking about being in a state of grace. No one is eternally saved until they have been judged - you haven’t been judged. (Heb 9-27) But you are “in Christ” and have been saved from otherwise certain damnation. Now you must choose to remain “in Him” by Grace, through faith. You should have every confidence that you will and that you will be eternally saved through the merits of Christ at the end of your earthly life, but you must persevere…

EA_Man:

Conversion is a change of direction. Repentance is a change of mind – towards God. By definition, and by their nature, these things are not reversible.

I disagree and so does the vast majority of the OT, NT, early Church Fathers and the theologians both before and since the reformation.

EA_Man:

The Godly sorrow that leads to repentance – if it is real – is not something that is possible to disavow.

You say so, but with no authority to do so…

I judge not,

Phil

 

[Matt16_18]

So then you are saying that “partakers of the Holy Spirit” and those who “fall away from the living God” were NOT believers? This is a perplexing interpretation.

It is an absurd interpretation.

 

[Philthy]

EA_Man:

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (I Jn. 2:1)

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship
one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses
us from all sin. (I Jn. 1:7)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (I Jn. 1:9)

Now notice what it says here: The Blood of Christ cleanses us
from ALL sin. How much sin? ALL of it.
Likewise, we are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness. How much unrighteousness? ALL unrighteousness.

Actually it says that IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT the blood of christ cleanses us. Are you done walking or not? Im not, and I will continue to walk in the light - recommend you do so also.
Same is true for cleansing - IF we confess he forgives. Have you sinned your last sin yet? I hope so, but if not, you must continye to confess your sins. Because the promise is only valid IF you confess your sins…
Your conclusion focuses on the qualitative and quantitative aspects of the promise while igoring the conditional aspect - we must walk in the light/confess, otherwise…deals off!

EA_Man:

.“There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.” (Rom. 8:1) No wonder there is NO condemnation for those
in Christ. There is no sin or unrighteousness there to condemn. It is finished!

Well, Christs work is finished - yet hell remains. Yes it is finished and that becomes critical when we screw up. And if we screw it up so bad that we are no longer “in Christ” - like by “walking in darkness”(and not in the light, or “in Christ”) or by being deceived into believing our sin is not sin (contraception, homosexuality, etc and therefore not confessing it as sin) then we have jetisoned the gift of life freely given by God and earned by Christ out of love for us.

Judge not that you may not be judged -

Phil

 

[Gene_C]

EA Man,

Once saved, always saved? Would that it were true!

Now, please, reconcile this teaching with Scripture:

Luke 15:24 (The Prodigal Son):

“‘For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.” He is alive…again!

James 1:13-15:

*“When tempted, no one should say, ‘God is tempting me.’ For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” *This can’t be talking about unbelievers who are already dead in their sins.

1 John 5:16-17:

*“If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.” *Does this mean that they physically die or spiritually die?

Romans 8:12-14:

“Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” Again, is Paul talking about physical or spiritual death? And how about that little detail at the end; only those who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Galatians 5:19-21:

“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Why is Paul warning believers if they cannot lose their state of grace?

Gene

 

[vern_humphrey]

EA_Man:

Your salvation was never based on anything you did. So, you cannot lose it by anything you do.

If that’s true, there is no such thing as sin. For there is no penalty, and without a penalty, nothing can be sinful.

If that’s true, you can steal, cheat, murder, curse Christ and worship Satan, and you’re still saved.

What you’ve stumbled into backwards is a heresy called antinomianism which claims those saved are “above the law” and cannot sin,

 

[Richard_Hurtz]

Philthy:

Judge not that you may not be judged -
Phil

Looks like he’s gone.

 

[sandusky]

Matt16_18:

Please tell us how a non-Christian could ever commit the mortal sin of apostasy!

By renouncing his said faith.

Matt16_18:

Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

What about Moses, David, Paul?

 

[Matt16_18]

sandusky:

By renouncing his said faith.

Please explain how a person that never was a Christian can renounce his faith in Christ!

What about Moses, David, Paul?

Moses, David, and Paul were all repentant murderers, so in God’s eyes, they are not murderers at all.

John is speaking about Christians are that are full of hate, that is, Christian that are unrepentant for their hatred of their brothers. Such people abide in death because they hate, not love.

The Catholic Church certainly understands that repentant murderers can be forgiven, and that sincere repentance and contrition restores to the soul the eternal life abiding within that had been lost by mortal sin, even the mortal sin of murder.

It is that antinomian Protestant Evangelicals that think that a Christian can live in unrepentant hatred and also have the Holy Spirit dwelling in their temple. The antinomian heretics believe that one can have faith at the same time one is unfaithful. Such is the absurdity of the antinomianism.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I beg you. On my knees I beg you PLEASE heed Paul’s warning:

“For know and recognize this: no sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient.” Eph. 5:5-6

This is without a doubt the single most important Bible verse for OSAS Christians to read. These are faithful Christians that Paul was warning. He commended them in verses 1:15-16 for having such strong faith. If they had to make a one time profession of faith, he wouldn’t warn them. He also doesn’t warn them to make sure they never lose faith, but to make sure they don’t sin because sin will get God’s wrath… It’s such an important warning. OSAS is a bunch of empty arguements that deceive us and have cast countless souls into torment.

Here’s the same thing: “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.” Heb. 10:26

Please with all my heart I beg you to read St. Paul’s words…

 

[sara888]

**EMAN saidSo, you cannot lose it by anything you do. Salvation is life that, by definition, cannot be lost. It isn’t the KIND of life that can be lost, and neither is it received in a way that can be reversed.

Eman you statement above is what you teach NOT what Jesus teaches.

seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13)

Since communion is one of the few means by which we have close fellowship with Christ, why do you think some men have limited it observance? Perhaps it is because some denominations desire their members to be more closely attached to the denomination than to Christ
**
**
John1:53 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves****.
54 The one partaking of My flesh and drinking of My blood has everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is truly food, and My blood is truly drink.

Eman what do you have to say to those verses above, ? can we just omit them

Sara**

 

[sara888]

**"Why do you call Me Lord and not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46). This mean what it is to be a disciple of Christ.

John 15:10) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love].”

John 14:15) “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

(1 John 5:3) “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matt.5:17 NIV).

---

Eman this verse is for you

“Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (v19).
Sara**

 

[sandusky]

Matt16_18:

Please explain how a person that never was a Christian can renounce his faith in Christ!

Read Mt 13:24-30; Lk 8:11-15; Jas 2:14. In the areas listed people do embrace, profess, and then renounce.

A true believer, by scriptural definition, will never completely fall away, he has as his mediator God the Son (cf Lk 22:31-32), and God don’t make promises that He don’t keep.

Matt16_18:

John is speaking about Christians are that are full of hate, that is, Christian that are unrepentant for their hatred of their brothers. Such people abide in death because they hate, not love.

You are taking an extreme literalist understanding of one verse. You have not plucked out your right eye, and cut off your right hand, have you? A true Christian repents and confesses.

A hate-filled Christian is an oxymoron.

Matt16_18:

It is that antinomian Protestant Evangelicals that think that a Christian can live in unrepentant hatred and also have the Holy Spirit dwelling in their temple. The antinomian heretics believe that one can have faith at the same time one is unfaithful. Such is the absurdity of the antinomianism.

Antinomianism is indeed absurd.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I think we can safely say that Paul was a true believer, yet he was constantly worrying that he might fall away.

And James 2:14 is NOT about a person renouncing faith or falling away. It’s about a person with faith who doesn’t do any works. The only way to say it’s about a person renouncing faith, or without true faith, is to completely read things into the text or make assumptions, because there is nothing even close in the text that says that this is what’s going on, and I challenge a single person to show me anything anywhere in the BIble that does say such a thing.

 

[sandusky]

Lazerlike42:

And James 2:14 is NOT about a person renouncing faith or falling away. It’s about a person with faith who doesn’t do any works…

James is talking about a “said” faith. The point being, that not everyone who professes faith has a true faith.

Lazerlike42:

…I challenge a single person to show me anything anywhere in the BIble that does say such a thing

I don’t know what your challenge is; could you be more specific?

 

[Matt16_18]

sandusky:

.

A true believer, by scriptural definition, will never completely fall away …

There is no “scriptural definition” that says a “true believer” will never fall away. The OSAS heresy that you are preaching is not supported by scripture.

 

[sandusky]

Matt16_18:

There is no “scriptural definition” that says a “true believer” will never fall away. The OSAS heresy that you are preaching is not supported by scripture.

In the very least, a true believer is called, and justified. By that basic definition, he will never completely fall away.

 

[Matt16_18]

sandusky:

In the very least, a true believer is called, and justified.

That is true.

By that basic definition, he will never completely fall away.

There is NOTHING in scriptures that allows one to draw such a conclusion. Jesus taught that many would fall away, and only those that endure to the end will be saved.

 

[verismo]

sandusky:

In the very least, a true believer is called, and justified. By that basic definition, he will never completely fall away.

Are we keeping in mind the difference between Justification, and (final) Salvation? Is part of your argument that even though he has free will still, it is impossible to conceive that he would renounce Christ once baptized/redeemed/justified etc.?

 

[sara888]

**Eternal Security is dangerous because it causes people to take the attitude I don’t have to be careful, I don’t have to discipline myself, I can’t be lost any way, therefore many are cold and indifferent about God and his work, and the kind of daily lives they live

1. This is a dangerous doctrine because it causes backsliders to be eternally lost. Many have gone back in sin, and yet they are taught and believe they will be saved anyway.Either by God forcing them back of destroying their works at judgement. Therefore people will go to judgment deceived, believing they are saved when they are not. They
   testify…Does a person who testifies of this know what you are actually saying—I am–indicates present tense–I am now a sinner. You can’t be a sinner and a Christian. If you are walking like Christ --You are a Christian.
2. This doctrine takes away man’s free moral choice. Many people who believe this doctrine believe God will force men and women back to repentance if they backslide from God, by severe chastisement on them. If this were true, after a man is saved he would become a robot or a zombie, with no power of choice for his own life.

God made man from the beginning to be free to choose his own God to worship in life. Why did God put a tree of life and death in the Garden of Eden…Simply to give man a choice to choose from.

God put some things in this world to be left alone. We need this things to choose from.We show our love to God by choosing the right things. In choosing the right things we say I had rather have Jesus than the evil things of this world…If me cannot backslide and be lost, why does the devil continues to waste his time at such. Yet he hasn’t ceased to trouble God’s people since the Garden of Eden**