OSAS John 10:28

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What is your best refutation of this:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."
 
What do you want me or anyone else to refute…are you trying to imply that God is dishonest and that what he promises us will not be fulfilled??? Or is this an attempt to prove the heretical protestant belief of “once saved, always saved”. Please explain…
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michaelgazin:
What is your best refutation of this:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."
 
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michaelgazin:
What is your best refutation of this:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."
But this verse doesn’t say that we can’t leave of our own free will. It is very comforting in that no one outside of ourselves can take us from God’s love. But I don’t see it as saying that we ourselves can’t still make decision, right or wrong, concerning our salvation.
 
The verse only says that nothing can snatch someone out of his hands. In other words, Satan, for instance, can’t do anything whatsoever to those whom are Christ’s.

Check out Romans 11, where Paul talks about being cut of the tree of life (Christ’s body).

Also, read this:
Phi 3:10-15 “My goal is to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, assuming that I will somehow reach the resurrection from among the dead. Not that I have already reached the goal or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead, I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God’s heavenly call in Christ Jesus. Therefore, all who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will reveal this to you also.”
St. Paul tells us that even he doesn’t know if he is going to reach the resurrection. If Paul doesn’t even know, then we certainly can’t claim to know! He tells us how he makes an effort to take hold of his salvation. In fact, we know he has “true faith” as Protestants say, and that he is already in Christ’s hand, just as the Matthew quote says, because he says, “I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus.” So here we have Paul telling us he is already Christ’s, yet he is unsure of whether he will have salvation!

Protestants might try to argue that Paul is just being humble, but this is pretty large stretch of the text. Even that claim falls flat though, because at the end Paul tells us we should all think this way, and warns that if we think differently “God will reveal this” to us also. I’m not the biggest expert on the meanings of Biblical phrases, but I believe this is a reference to getting punished in Hell, or more likely a reference to Purgatory where this incorrect belief will be revealed by the purifying “fire” of Purgatory and burnt up. Compare to 1 Corinthians 3:13-15:
each one’s work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.
So it doesn’t matter at all why Paul is saying he isn’t sure: he tells us that we must all think this way too, regardless of our reasons, and gives us a fearful warning against doing otherwise, which would include believing in OSAS.
 
Being safe from being snatched out of our Father’s hands is one thing; having the free will to voluntarily leave His hands is another.
 
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Sherlock:
Being safe from being snatched out of our Father’s hands is one thing; having the free will to voluntarily leave His hands is another.
Wouldn’t “no one” also include the individual?

He doesn’t say “no one except…”.

“My Father is greater than all…” than who? Everyone except the individual? Absolutely not.

Peace
 
In order to except OSAS, we must ignore every single verse that contradicts it. Yes, you can find some verses that taken out of context seem to support OSAS but the key to understanding the bible is to read it in context.
 
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EA_Man:
Wouldn’t “no one” also include the individual?

He doesn’t say “no one except…”.

“My Father is greater than all…” than who? Everyone except the individual? Absolutely not.

Peace
The question isn’t about who might leave the hand, but how. A person can’t snatch himself away, but he can leave. They are two completely different things. The passage says nobody can be snatched. This means nobody can be taken. It never says anything about someone leaving on their own, nor does it say the Father won’t cast them out of His hand on His own. In fact, Romans 11 and Revelation 3:16 would indicate that Jesus/The Father can and may do this.
 
Thanks, Lazerlike—you made my point and saved me some typing.
 
This verse is refering to Christs sheep, if we look at the preceeding verse-- My sheep hear my voice and they FOLLOW me. This word “follow” is in the Continuous Greek tense thus is not a once off profession of faith as some protestants think, but a endurance and requires the gift of perserverance, (there is a load of scripture to back this point up).

Also remember sheep can wander of their own free will, as I believe will have been stated already. Look at luke 15 if you need evidence that sheep can wander.

God bless

M
 
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Lazerlike42:
The question isn’t about who might leave the hand, but how.
Okay, how does a person “leave the hand”?

But first, I would suggest that we need to know how you got into “the hand” to begin with.

We repent.

But what are we repenting of?

At the root of all sin is unbelief. (repent and believe)

That’s how we get into the hand. So how do we get out of the hand?

By not believeing after we believed? By unrepenting? Of course not. For that to be the case you would have had to not have repented or believed to begin with.

If you can’t do anything to save yourself, how can you undo what Jesus has done?

We are saved by faith once and for all, not in salvation, then out, in then out, ad infinitum.

Peace
 
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EA_Man:
Okay, how does a person “leave the hand”?

But first, I would suggest that we need to know how you got into “the hand” to begin with.

We repent.

But what are we repenting of?

At the root of all sin is unbelief. (repent and believe)

That’s how we get into the hand. So how do we get out of the hand?

By not believeing after we believed? By unrepenting? Of course not. For that to be the case you would have had to not have repented or believed to begin with.

If you can’t do anything to save yourself, how can you undo what Jesus has done?

We are saved by faith once and for all, not in salvation, then out, in then out, ad infinitum.

Peace
Wow, this is ‘starting’ (and I use the world lightly) to get old…do people who believe OSAS read the Bible with blinders on or what?!
 
Read Phillipians 3:10-15

Read 1 Corinthians 10:12

Read 1 Corinthians 9:27

Read Romans 11.

Read Revelation 3.

Read Luke 6:46-49

Read Romans 2:6-8

Read Phillipians 2:12-13

Read Matthew 19:17-18

Read Revelation 20:12-13

Read James 2:21-22 (you don’t even need to look at 24)

Read James 5:19-20

Read John 5:28-29

Read Galatians 6:6-10

I can provide more if necessary 🙂
 
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EA_Man:
Okay, how does a person “leave the hand”?

But first, I would suggest that we need to know how you got into “the hand” to begin with.

We repent.

But what are we repenting of?

At the root of all sin is unbelief. (repent and believe)

That’s how we get into the hand. So how do we get out of the hand?

By not believeing after we believed? By unrepenting?
Yes, someone may “leave the hand” by reverting to unbelief and/or unrepentance.
 
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petra:
Yes, someone may “leave the hand” by reverting to unbelief and/or unrepentance.
How do you unbelieve something once you have believed it?

To unrepent means that you never truly repented to begin with.

Peace
 
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EA_Man:
How do you unbelieve something once you have believed it?
Through deception. It is within the realm of possibility for someone to lose his/her faith and abandon belief in exchange for a lie. I have also seen people lose their faith by becoming angry at God for something that happened in their life that they thought He shouldn’t have allowed.
To unrepent means that you never truly repented to begin with.
Not true. Someone could revert to a seriously sinful life without repentence. Just because someone repents of sins at a certain point in time in life doesn’t mean that future sins will be repented of. The Bible is clear that there are some sins that sever the lifeline with God. If that person does not repent to be restored to God’s grace and then dies in that state of separation, that person will be lost.
 
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EA_Man:
How do you unbelieve something once you have believed it?

To unrepent means that you never truly repented to begin with.

Peace
Read Paul. He specifically says that it is possible for believers to become unrepentant. This is why he is contstantly warning people not to fall out of their salvation. He is very specifically concerned with those who already have found salvation falling out of it. This means they did truly believe to begin with.

In fact, Paul is even worried that this may happen to him (1 Corinthians 9:27). Clearly Paul truly had repented and believed!

Furthermore, James very, very explicitly speaks about this:

James 5:19-20 said:
“My brothers, if any among you strays from the truth, and someone turns him back, he should know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

He is speaking to brothers, which always refers to fellow believers, and makes mention that this person can stray from the truth and be brought back to it.
 
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