OSAS John 10:28

[E.E.N.S]

EA_Man:

To unrepent means that you never truly repented to begin with.

Yes and no. Example. Let’s say I am in a state of grace, and I willingly kill an innocent family, brutally even, and then I die without repenting…

…or consider that I do many grave sins, but then I repent, truly repent - I am forgiven, right? What if I sin gravely again (let’s say this time I did different grave sins, so you can’t use that, “you weren’t really sorry” argument.)?

Try reading some of those verses stated above in post #13 and you should easily see that you can be “grafted in” or “cut off”, “spewed out”, etc.

 

[EA_Man]

E.E.N.S.:

Yes and no. Example. Let’s say I am in a state of grace, and I willingly kill an innocent family, brutally even, and then I die without repenting…

…or consider that I do many grave sins, but then I repent, truly repent - I am forgiven, right? What if I sin gravely again (let’s say this time I did different grave sins, so you can’t use that, “you weren’t really sorry” argument.)?

Try reading some of those verses stated above in post #13 and you should easily see that you can be “grafted in” or “cut off”, “spewed out”, etc.

At what point does the power of the Holy Spirit become operative in your scenario?

You sin, repent, lose your salvation, gain it back. Over and over again?

How is the Holy Spirit operative in this scenario? Apparently the Holy Spirit is not very helpful if you’re committing one grave sin after the other and repenting between committing them.

What have you repented of? To repent means ‘to have a change of heart’ or ‘to change your mind’. At the point of salvation you have the life of Christ in you. When does that start working itself out in your Christian life? Where is the ‘power’ in that?

Peace

 

[Lazerlike42]

God’s Word trumps everything any of us can say. Please EA_Man, read it. It is the Word of God and it is the most meaningful thing we can read or hear. It is literally God speaking directly to us.

I posted all sorts of things from God which explain that we can lose our salvation and then get it back again, especially 1 Corinthians 9:27 and James 5:19-20. Please open your heart.

The truth is that you believe what you do because men have told it to you. Men have told you to believe in faith alone, and men have told you to believe in OSAS. It is because perhaps some men who have written a book, or perhaps your pastor who have told you these things. They may be fine people but they are only men. Please EA_Man, read God, and open your heart to Him, and listen to Him. He is all that matters, not the words of men.

Read Phillipians 3:10-15

Read 1 Corinthians 10:12

Read 1 Corinthians 9:27

Read Romans 11.

Read Revelation 3.

Read Luke 6:46-49

Read Romans 2:6-8

Read Phillipians 2:12-13

Read Matthew 19:17-18

Read Revelation 20:12-13

Read James 2:21-22 (you don’t even need to look at 24)

Read James 5:19-20

Read John 5:28-29

Read Galatians 6:6-10

 

[EA_Man]

Lazerlike42:

God’s Word trumps everything any of us can say. Please EA_Man, read it. It is the Word of God and it is the most meaningful thing we can read or hear. It is literally God speaking directly to us.

I posted all sorts of things from God which explain that we can lose our salvation and then get it back again, especially 1 Corinthians 9:27 and James 5:19-20. Please open your heart.

The truth is that you believe what you do because men have told it to you. Men have told you to believe in faith alone, and men have told you to believe in OSAS. It is because perhaps some men who have written a book, or perhaps your pastor who have told you these things. They may be fine people but they are only men. Please EA_Man, read God, and open your heart to Him, and listen to Him. He is all that matters, not the words of men.

How do you know what the meaning of these passages are, if you don’t mind my asking?

I won’t make any assumptions, you can tell me yourself.

Furthermore, I agree that He is all that matters. But since I believe that, I can’t believe that it is my works that MAINTAIN my salvation any more than I can believe it was my works that gained my salvation.

Peace

 

[petra]

EA_Man:

At what point does the power of the Holy Spirit become operative in your scenario?

How is the Holy Spirit operative in this scenario? Apparently the Holy Spirit is not very helpful if you’re committing one grave sin after the other and repenting between committing them.

Excellent question! The Holy Spirit energetically works to convict us when we are straying and to issue a strong warning in our heart when we are about ready to commit a sin that may severe our lifeline. The power of the Holy Spirit is operative continually. He also gives us the grace to resist such sin. Therefore, if we disregard His energetic efforts and profound grace and commit serious sin anyway, it is the same as rejecting the foundation of our salvation formally.

You sin, repent, lose your salvation, gain it back. Over and over again?

Hopefully not! God gives us profound grace to abide in Him.

What have you repented of? To repent means ‘to have a change of heart’ or ‘to change your mind’. At the point of salvation you have the life of Christ in you. When does that start working itself out in your Christian life? Where is the ‘power’ in that?

That power starts working immediately. He gives us all the grace and power we need to abide in Him. If we choose to throw it away in favor of a moment’s pleasure, how much more the sin! But no matter what we do, He as a loving Father eagerly awaits our repentence and will quickly forgive a repentent heart.

 

[E.E.N.S]

EA_Man:

At what point does the power of the Holy Spirit become operative in your scenario?

Notice I said I was in a state of grace? At the begining…

EA_Man:

You sin, repent, lose your salvation, gain it back. Over and over again?

By George, I think he’s getting it! Why else would St. Paul have said to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling?” …Or “to run the race to win?”

EA_Man:

How is the Holy Spirit operative in this scenario? Apparently the Holy Spirit is not very helpful if you’re committing one grave sin after the other and repenting between committing them.

Without the Holy Spirit we can do no good…but He doesn’t make us puppets, we need to co-operate with His graces and inspirations.

EA_Man:

What have you repented of? To repent means ‘to have a change of heart’ or ‘to change your mind’. At the point of salvation you have the life of Christ in you. When does that start working itself out in your Christian life? Where is the ‘power’ in that?

We are a fallen race; we have temptaions, we are weak, we fall and fall again…I know from personal experience of this first hand. I can feel the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but sometimes in the heat of temptation I am weak, then I repent, I truly repent - I hate the sin I committed, yet none the less, later on down the road a fall into the same stupid temptation again. Did it mean that I wasn’t truly sorry before? Try telling that to my tears! Do you think that I WANTED to believe the Catholic Church was the True Church? (I am a convert) I didn’t, I liked the idea of OSAS, in fact I argued the point against Cathiolics about 6 years ago…also while I was converting I lost the girl I wanted to marry, she didn’t want to look at the facts, she turned the other way…
Anyway, I am getting off track (but I will leave that little bit in there as a bit of testamony ), there IS ‘power’ in that! I ask you this; if as soon as we accepted Christ as Our Lord and Saviour the Holy Spirit took control, where would the glory be for God?!

 

[EA_Man]

Thanks for the explanations - not buying.

Peace

 

[petra]

EA_Man, are you aware of the definition of “abide?” It means “remain.” Please read the entire book of 1 John with this meaning in mind. When John warns of the consequences of not abiding/remaining in Christ, the implication is that such people were, in fact, “in Christ” to begin with.

 

[E.E.N.S]

EA_Man:

Thanks for the explanations - not buying.

Peace

Heart as hard as a rock…Lord soften this man’s heart!

 

[E.E.N.S]

I think people often forget that these were letter written to christians, telling them how they ought to be…not trying to convert people. OSAS is so unbiblical, I don’t know how I even scarcely believed it! (I read with blinders on once too I guess…)

 

[petra]

E.E.N.S.:

I think people often forget that these were letter written to christians, telling them how they ought to be…not trying to convert people.

That is a very good point. Many Protestant churches use Sunday morning services as an evangelical outreach with sermons being written primarily for the “seeker.” Protestants are accustomed to sermons being delivered to a mixed audience, so it is easy for them to assume that the same was the case for the readership of the New Testament epistles.

But such was NOT the case. The epistles were written to Christians on subjects that were relevant to Christians—to people who had been born again. The admonitions to persevere to the end and to abide (remain) in Christ were for Christians, not the unsaved.

 

[EA_Man]

E.E.N.S.:

Heart as hard as a rock…Lord soften this man’s heart!

It’s the head that’s hard - Jesus is living in my heart.

Peace to you.

 

[E.E.N.S]

EA_Man:

It’s the head that’s hard - Jesus is living in my heart.

Peace to you.

Time will tell.

Peace to you as well brother.

 

[michaelgazin]

Wow, I post this, leave for work, and come back to 33 posts.

You guys got the ball rolling. Sorry for the ambiguity of the original post, but it has been responded to appropriately. This verse is used over and over (to the exclusion of romans 11) to “prove” eternal security, and I get a bit exhausted refuting it over and over, so I was interested in your guys’ polished refutations of it, against those of the OSAS camp.

 

[michaelgazin]

EA_Man:

How do you unbelieve something once you have believed it?

EA_Man… you are brave coming in here with so many crazy, fervent Catholics.

As for the question:

Romans 11:20 “They were broken off because of their unbelief” (note they could only be broken of, if at one time they were attatched. One is only attatched or “grafted” in through belief also. That should answer your question)

Romans 11:23 “And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” (notice the word “again.” Belief preceded the unbelief, and can potentially be resumed again resulting in their re-grafting as a result of “God’s power”)

 

[Sherlock]

EA_Man:

How do you unbelieve something once you have believed it?

I have a number of friends who were, at one point, very committed born-again Evangelical Christians. They believed. However, they let the thorns of daily life (think of Jesus’ story about sowing the seed) choke out their once-fervent belief, and now there’s no indication that they have any faith at all. Frankly, it’s simply easier not to, and unfortunately human nature slides towards the easiest route (which is why Jesus warns us about the wide and easy path to hell). If my friends really believed in heaven and hell, they wouldn’t live as they do now. One is now an avowed atheist, but the others are what could be called “practical atheists”: they wouldn’t call themselves atheists, but their spiritual life is dead. They used to be on fire as believers, though—then they simply walked away when it became easier to do so.

“To unrepent means that you never truly repented to begin with.”

No, it means that it’s possible (and even easy) to repeat our past transgressions. It’s so easy, that if we allow our faith to wane, we may find it easier to simply give in instead of committing ourselves to a holy life.

 

[Timidity]

michaelgazin:

What is your best refutation of this:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

I’m not going to refute anything, but I hate it when someone snatches a sentence out of a paragraph and leaves it dangling there as if it supports an arguement all by itself.

In this case, who are the “them” the He will give eternal life to? Let’s read the whole passage:But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. I and the Father are one.

John 10:26-30
​

Ah! So in context we see that Jesus is promising life everlasting to His “sheep”. And we also see that to be His sheep we must meet the following conditions:

1. 
   *]We must believe.
   *]We must hear His voice.
   *]He must know us.
   *]We must follow him.
   
   Seeing that a sheep can stop following the shepherd and fall prey to wolves, I would say that the metaphor is this scripture does not support OSAS at all.

 

[SobolII]

michaelgazin:

What is your best refutation of this:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

There is nothing to refute. It is one of many verses stating the believer’s eternal security. “No one can…” no one, not even the believer himself.

 

[SobolII]

Timidity:

I’m not going to refute anything, but I hate it when someone snatches a sentence out of a paragraph and leaves it dangling there as if it supports an arguement all by itself.

In this case, who are the “them” the He will give eternal life to? Let’s read the whole passage:But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. I and the Father are one.

John 10:26-30
​

Ah! So in context we see that Jesus is promising life everlasting to His “sheep”. And we also see that to be His sheep we must meet the following conditions:

1. 
   *]We must believe.
   *]We must hear His voice.
   *]He must know us.
   *]We must follow him.
   
   Seeing that a sheep can stop following the shepherd and fall prey to wolves, I would say that the metaphor is this scripture does not support OSAS at all.

1. 
   You are missing the most important verse (reason) for eternal security: Eph 1:4. Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.
   
   Also, the Jn 10 verse by itself speaks for itself.

 

[SobolII]

michaelgazin:

EA_Man… you are brave coming in here with so many crazy, fervent Catholics.

As for the question:

Romans 11:20 “They were broken off because of their unbelief” (note they could only be broken of, if at one time they were attatched. One is only attatched or “grafted” in through belief also. That should answer your question)

Romans 11:23 “And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” (notice the word “again.” Belief preceded the unbelief, and can potentially be resumed again resulting in their re-grafting as a result of “God’s power”)

Paul is talking about the Jews here. They were broken off because of their unbelief. The grafting in again has to do with the Jews being God’s chosen people; that is still a fact; that is why they will be grafted in again, through finally believing that Christ is their Messiah.

You cannot refute what Christ is saying in Jn 10:28; it is clearly that the believer is secure, eternally.