OSAS John 10:28

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michaelgazin:
And there we have it, a confession that eternal security can only be true by ignoring certain Scripture passages that are conflicting.

We should consider those passages that are “against it,” while reading those that supposedly support it in context.
You reject because you don’t know God. You know RCC theology, but you do not know God. His word is very clear. He says that HE HAS CHOSEN those HE WILL SAVE, and He will save them. Just because you refuse to believe, does not negate what God says. Trust in God, not in yourself.
 
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dumspirospero:
What do you want me or anyone else to refute…are you trying to imply that God is dishonest and that what he promises us will not be fulfilled??? Or is this an attempt to prove the heretical protestant belief of “once saved, always saved”. Please explain…
Dum Spiro Spero,

Excellent catch!
  • Liberian
 
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SobolII:
You are missing the most important verse (reason) for eternal security: Eph 1:4. Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Also, the Jn 10 verse by itself speaks for itself.
Soboll1,

Unfortunately, the John 10 verse by itself does not speak for itself. Some people interpret it to mean that a person, once he starts following Christ, cannot stop following Christ; other people interpret it differently. So no, it does not speak for itself.
  • Liberian
 
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SobolII:
I’ll take your answer to mean that you haven’t a clue.
Take it to mean anything that you want…but as with eternal security…you’d be dead wrong again.

In the total context of the NT…if one has taken the time to read it all the way through does NOT teach such a comfy error in doctrine that allows people to rationalize away moral obligations and obedience to Christ.

There are indeed some assurances that God loves us and that He is with us in all things, (today’s reading from the epistle to the Romans chapter 8 verses 31 thru 39 is a beautiful example!), but then there are other equally clear statements in the NT that contradict this errant doctrine of men, such as:

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

1st Corinthians 9:27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

There are more…
 
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ChurchMilitant:
In the total context of the NT…if one has taken the time to read it all the way through does NOT teach such a comfy error in doctrine that allows people to rationalize away moral obligations and obedience to Christ.
The idea that OSAS allows people to rationalize away moral obligations and obedience to Christ comes from your prejudiced hatred of Protestant doctrine. If you look at my posts on this thread, you will not find me saying anything about OSAS giving one carte blanche with respect to their behavior. It is God who promises that the ones He chose to save, He will also enable them to persevere to the end. You have missed that in your reading of the N.T.

Again, the idea of OSAS allowing for one to live decadently and still be saved has its seed in your hatred of Protestant doctrine.
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ChurchMilitant:
There are indeed some assurances that God loves us and that He is with us in all things, (today’s reading from the epistle to the Romans chapter 8 verses 31 thru 39 is a beautiful example!), but then there are other equally clear statements in the NT that contradict this errant doctrine of men…
It is not an errant doctrine of men; it is based upon the clear promises of God. You have missed that in your reading of the N.T.

I came back to post this and will now leave your forum.

It seems that they are very protective of all of you.
 
I believe on once saved always saved. Once I’m in heaven, I ain’t leavin’.

I guess the difference is I believe one has to persevere to the end before I am saved. I don’t get saved from sinner’s prayer I say on this earth.
 
Soboll:
There is no Scripture that refutes it. The Scriptures you quote as a refutation you do not understand. You are prooftexting by what you think they say; your interpretation is wrong.
How do you know ours is wrong? I heard a man (I forget his name) on television say tonight, “When you take Scripture as your final authority, that’s actually you being the final authority in interpreting it.” This is what you’re doing. You’re actually putting yourself about Scripture by saying that you can judge it’s meaning whereas we cannot. You are just as fallible as us, why is your interpretation more valid?
Soboll:
I said above, only God knows who they are. I can only go by the fruit that people exhibit. What does knowing who the elect are have to do with eternal security? Both are taught in Scripture. Your beef is with the Word, not with me. By the way, one who is of the elect can know; Scripture is very clear on that also.
If one who is elect can know that he is, then we have a problem. Imagine a person who knows he is elect. Imagine he suddenly becomes Catholic. You would say he is not elect. However, he thought he was elect. This means that a non-elect person could think he is elect even if he’s not. How then can an elect person know if he is elect or if he is just non-elect who mistakenly thinks he is elect?
Again, the Scripture does not teach this. You don’t believe, because you don’t know God. You believe that God is impotent to save those that He clearly says that He has chosen. There is an axiom that says, "If you think you can lose your salvation, you probably will. I think that you never had it in the first place.
Trust in God, not in yourself.
As I pointed out above, you are trusting in yourself to interpret God’s Word. This is not a trust in God. This is a trust in yourself. You are listening to what men tell you the Bible means. This is a trust in yourself, and in men. As Catholics, we listen to the Church, a Church which God promised us, and which He promised He would lead and guide. We are trusting in God. We teach that God Himself is really guiding us all and instructing us through His Church. You believe that various men have in their own fallibility judged the Word of God correctly. How do you know they are correct without yourself posessing the very infallibility you deny the Church of Christ?
 
SobolII said:
There is no Scripture that refutes it.
The Scriptures you quote as a refutation you do not understand. You are prooftexting by what you think they say; your interpretation is wrong.
Well enlighten me as to what the “Holy Spirit” - who leads into all truth, has shown you as an lone ranger style Christian- Please share with us all your seemingly infallible interpretation of the passages that were mentioned above as a refutation of OSAS, take them one by one.
I said above, only God knows who they are.
By the way, one who is of the elect can know; Scripture is very clear on that also.
Is this surely not a contradiction?

where in the bible does it say that the elect can know that they are predestined to go to Heaven, whilst still on Earth?Because that verse frm ephesians1 proves nothing like the claims you are making for it.
You don’t believe, because you don’t know God. You believe that God is impotent to save those that He clearly says that He has chosen. I think that you never had it in the first place.
You dont know what you are talking about, I dont believe that God is impotent!:rolleyes: , But let his word have the final say here, look at this scripture above, and deal with it.
Trust in God, not in yourself
I would advise you the same, Because you are trusting solely on yourself.
 
Dear OSAS believers,

This is a very serious matter, because it bears the hallmarks of the sin of presumption. And as it is contrary to the scriptures it is thus Anti-Christ. Just because Christs redeeming act is finished on Calvary, does in no way mean that we can relax and rest on our laurels as OSAS Christians may tend to believe. But rather we must apply this salvation to our selves as individuals and work it out with “fear and trembling”
Paul himself talks about subduing his body in case he himself a believer “should be disqualified” (I Cor9:27) A warning to all us believers! Paul goes on to say that who ever “thinks they are standing take heed lest they fall”(I Cor 10:12), who thinks they stand, Christians do, they believe they stand in grace, so they must be careful they do not fall from grace. So we must stand fast that we don’t fall (Gal 5:1-4).

OSAS presume that they are already finally saved. But not even St Paul himself made this presumption. He says that “he presses on towards the goal” (Phil 3:11-14), because he has not yet “obtained it”. Hebrews 3:12-14 is clear, “Take care, brethren, (ie Christians), least…evil unbelieving hearts… lead you to fall away” Again in Peter’s letters, 2Pet2:15, 20-21, he spells it out clearly; “after they escaped the defilements of the world (ie. Repented, believed, baptised, were born again!) Through Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered.” Peter makes it so clear. I can’t understand for the life of me how a fellow “believer” misses this.

To say that one can loose ones salvation, does not imply that we never had it (as proved by the above scripture, as these back sliders clearly believed and were born again, and later lost it), nor does it imply a weakness in Gods ability to Save his elect. Only God knows who the elect are, and only he knows who will be saved on the last day.His elect will indeed be saved, as they were predestined to glory,and not simply to grace.Problem for us is we just dont know if we are elected or not, It is a grave danger to assume that you as an individual will without being careful be in the saved camp at the end of time.

Scriptures as well as the Magisterium teaches that we can be saved and know that fact, but it is a hopeful knowledge, rather than an absolute certainty. Our venerable Late Pope John Paul II taught in his last Holy Thursday letter to priests, “unless we sense that we are saved ourselves, how can be become convincing heralds?” our lives must manifest this salvation, by attaining “Holiness, which is the fullest expression of salvation”. That is what perseverance is all about.

After all the bible clearly speaks of salvation in the past, present and future tense (I will provide proof if needed), We Catholics know we were saved by Grace in baptism, but now presently, we should know that we are saved-that is to say that we are right with God, but in the future, all we have is hope, that we will be graced with the gift of perseverance. Of course we know the Lord will be faithful to us, but the question is will we be faithful to Him. We must persevere and endure, for it is Christ that lives in us, who “is able to make us stand” (Rom 14:4), and thus we may thereby pursue peace with every one and the holiness with which no one will see the Lord, (Heb12:14), for if we endure, we will also reign with him ;( 2Tim2:12).
 
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SobolII:
You reject because you don’t know God. You know RCC theology, but you do not know God. His word is very clear. He says that HE HAS CHOSEN those HE WILL SAVE, and He will save them. Just because you refuse to believe, does not negate what God says. Trust in God, not in yourself.
Because I can not enter your heart, I would never say that you don’t know God. I have no right to judge your salvation. On what basis have you decided that Catholics don’t know or trust God? Is it only because we don’t believe in OSAS?
 
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SobolII:
You reject because you don’t know God. You know RCC theology, but you do not know God. His word is very clear. He says that HE HAS CHOSEN those HE WILL SAVE, and He will save them. Just because you refuse to believe, does not negate what God says. Trust in God, not in yourself.
Sobolll,

You have made some rather bold statements concerning Catholics. It is clear from your posts that you do not know Catholic theology. Your misunderstandings come through loud and clear in the above statements as well as your other posts.

We have quoted scripture and given you extremely clear verses that totally negate OSAS. There are many more as well. I have personally researched over 60 passages of scripture that show the teaching to be false. Moreover, this teaching is a modern construct and has never been the constant teaching within Christianity. Somehow, I don’t think the early Christians and all the Christians that followed them through the centuries got this one wrong.

OSAS is such a significant teaching about salvation that, to be true, it would have to be unequivocally stated in scripture and there would never be any other verses of scripture that would even remotely deny it. This, however, is not the case.

And please give us a little credit. We know scripture too, and you have not cornered the market on grace and guidance from the Holy Spirit. If you wish to be convincing you need to exegetically, linguistically, historically, and logically refute our interpretation. You cannot simply say that we are wrong and that we don’t accept God’s word.
 
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SobolII:



As far as the fellow who stated that Peter was writing to believers, all of the writers of the N.T. epistles assume that they are writing to believers. But the truth is, they don’t know. Only God knows who the true believer is.



I am not going to deal with the Hebrews passages, because you who quoted them simply do not understand them, and I know that it is a waste of my time to write it out for you, knowing that you will only reject what I say. Just know that you are wrong.
Thank you. Peter and the other NT writers are speaking to those whom they know, or at least assume, to be believers. Therefore, all of the instructions and statements concerning salvation made by Peter and all of the NT writers do apply to believers. You have just defeated your own argument. Paul uses provisional statements such as “if” and “provided you continue” [1 Tim 2:15, Gal 6:6-9, Romans 11:20-21, and others] when speaking of salvation. Peter, James, and John use language that indicates that salvation can be lost. Most importantly the words of Jesus in the gospel make it clear that salvation can be lost. Moreover, we have examples in scripture of people losing their salvation or being told that they will.

Ananias and Sapphira are described in the book of Acts and it is clear that they are part of the Christian community of believers. We know precisely from scripture what happened to them and why. In Acts 5:3-4 Peter says “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Ananias and Sapphira did an evil deed by letting Satan into their hearts and lying to the Holy Spirit. Consider the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts and what these two believers must have witnessed before they lied to the Holy Spirit. They turned away from God out of sinful desires and lied to the Holy Spirit. They were justified and then lost their justification.

The story about Simon the Magician is also helpful in demonstrating that people can turn from God after being justified and what the consequences are. And again Simon is not described as a believer without root or any other such thing. We are told in Acts 8:13 “Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.” The narrative then goes on to say that Simon saw that the gift and power of the Holy Spirit could be granted by the apostles by the laying on of hands. Simon desired to have the power of laying on hands and he was willing to pay the apostles to get it. When he solicited the apostles Peter rebuked him saying, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.”[Acts 8:20-22] This rebuke so frightened Simon that he responds in verse 24 saying, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” Simon was fearful because to perish meant death and damnation. Once again we have a Christian believer that was going to lose his salvation. And please note that this was not as a result of apostasy or loss of faith. Instead it was a grasping at power that God grants through the laying on of hands.

We have another example in scripture that is outlined in Paul’s condemnation of Alexander and Hymenaeus. Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:19-20 that, “By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.” Please notice that Paul indicates that a number of people have made shipwreck of their faith and he names two of them. These folks are Christian believers that have wrecked their faith because they rejected conscience. It does not say that they lacked root or were not true believers. It says that they wrecked their faith by rejecting conscience. It is apparent that faith can be ruined.

One final note…if you wish to claim that we are wrong in our understandings of the passages from Hebrews then the burden of proof is on you to do so. Simply telling us that we are wrong and that we do not know God is not going to convince anyone of anything.
 
In what ways does this verse not support eternal security?

**1 John 2:19 “**They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”
 
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michaelgazin:
In what ways does this verse not support eternal security?

**1 John 2:19 “**They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”
It doesn’t do as much as you wish it to do, especially in light of St. Paul’s exhortations to the faithful to persist until the end. If anything, it shows that though we cannot be snatched from the Father’s hand, we can leave—notice it says that these people “went out from us”, indicating their free will to reject the message they had received. In like manner, the friends I mentioned above “went out”. To spare you having to look up my post, I’ll copy it again:
“I have a number of friends who were, at one point, very committed born-again Evangelical Christians. They believed. However, they let the thorns of daily life (think of Jesus’ story about sowing the seed) choke out their once-fervent belief, and now there’s no indication that they have any faith at all. Frankly, it’s simply easier not to, and unfortunately human nature slides towards the easiest route (which is why Jesus warns us about the wide and easy path to hell). If my friends really believed in heaven and hell, they wouldn’t live as they do now. One is now an avowed atheist, but the others are what could be called “practical atheists”: they wouldn’t call themselves atheists, but their spiritual life is dead. They used to be on fire as believers, though—then they simply walked away when it became easier to do so.”

Now, it may be that they “were not of us” from the beginning, but I can assure you that they thought they were. They were true “born again” Evangelicals. Obviously, then, they THOUGHT they had absolute assurance of salvation, but they were mistaken. Which means that anyone who has the audacity to say that they have “absolute assurance” of heaven" may be, in fact, mistaken. One can have moral assurance of salvation, but to have “absolute assurance” presumes to be omniscient, and is denying free will. Does John say that he knows that they didn’t repent and return? No, he doesn’t—because he doesn’t pretend to be God. All he seems to be saying is that these people left, and by leaving showed that they they were not of the flock anymore. I could say the same for my Evangelical friends who were convinced of their absolute assurance. If anything, the verse reinforces St. Paul’s admonitions to persist.
 
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michaelgazin:
In what ways does this verse not support eternal security?

**1 John 2:19 “**They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”
The meaning and purpose of this verse is best understood in the larger context of John’s letter. Because of time and space I will enlarge the passage to encompass only a few extra verses.

1 John 2:18-25
“Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.”

The main point of the apostle is to warn the early Christians to beware of false teachers that are in the spirit of the anti-Christ. This is not in any way shape or form a proof text and foundational verse for supporting OSAS. In fact the context would suggest something quite different. If OSAS is true and if that is what John is really teaching, then there is simply no need to warn the faithful about it. Moreover, John exhorts his listeners to let what they heard from the beginning abide * in them. He then uses the provisional term “if” and states that “If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.”

Does this really sound like eternal security?*
 
1Co 4:3 It is of little importance that I should be evaluated by you or by a human court. In fact, I don’t even evaluate myself.
1Co 4:4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself, but I am not justified by this. The One who evaluates me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore don’t judge anything prematurely, before the Lord comes, who will both bring to light what is hidden in darkness and reveal the intentions of the hearts. And then praise will come to each one from God.
 
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