OSAS John 10:28

[Church_Militant]

SobolII:

Paul is talking about the Jews here. They were broken off because of their unbelief. The grafting in again has to do with the Jews being God’s chose people; that is still a fact; that is how they will be grafted in again, through finally believing that Christ is their Messiah.

And you think that is the only application? You wish!

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear. 21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. As usual…OSAS just doesn’t wash…
Pax vobiscum,

 

[SobolII]

Sherlock:

Being safe from being snatched out of our Father’s hands is one thing; having the free will to voluntarily leave His hands is another.

“No one” is a universal: No one, not even the believer himself: No one.

 

[SobolII]

Church Militant:

And you think that is the only application? You wish!

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear. 21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. As usual…OSAS just doesn’t wash…
Pax vobiscum,

I believe God and His promise to me. Salvation is ALL OF GOD and NOTHING OF ME.

My belief is Biblical; yours is not.

 

[Church_Militant]

“No one” is a universal: No one, not even the believer himself: No one.

If it makes ya feel all warm & fuzzy…but it’s still not scriptural in the context of the whole NT.

 

[Church_Militant]

SobolII:

I believe God and His promise to me. Salvation is ALL OF GOD and NOTHING OF ME.

My belief is Biblical; yours is not.

Prove it!

 

[SobolII]

Church Militant:

If it makes ya feel all warm & fuzzy…but it’s still not scriptural in the context of the whole NT.

What is the context of the whole N.T.?

 

[Church_Militant]

SobolII:

What is the context of the whole N.T.?

Ya mean to tell me that you haven’t read it all the way through?

 

[Sherlock]

“No one” is a universal: No one, not even the believer himself: No one.

As pointed out earlier, the issue is not “who”: obviously, I accept, as the passage states, that no believer can be snatched from our Father’s hand against our will. However, because we do have free will we can choose to leave our Father’s hand ourselves, no “snatching” required.

 

[Pax]

“No one” is a universal: No one, not even the believer himself: No one.

The NT authors are constantly warning the early Christians to avoid living in the flesh because they will lose their salvation. If they could not lose their salvation then all of these warnings are pointless. The apostle Peter opens his second letter with the following greeting: “Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.” Now please note that the Christians he is writing to have an equal standing with him in faith. They are believers. In the second chapter of the epistle, Peter begins with a warning about false teachers and how some of them will come from within the ranks of the believers. In 2 Peter 2:2-3 the apostle says, “And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words;” Notice what will happen to some of the believers that have an equal standing in faith with the apostle. Many will follow the licentiousness of the false teachers that come from within their own ranks. Subsequent to this, Peter outlines all of the sins that are committed by these people and what will happen to them. Finally, the apostle says in 2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, the dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.” The opening line of these verses clearly shows that Peter is talking about people that have been saved for they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The problem is that these believers are once again overpowered by the evils of the world and as a result they are worse off than if they had never been saved. That means that they are no longer saved and will go to hell unless they repent. Again in the closing verse of the epistle Peter talks to those of equal standing in the faith and says, “You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.”[2 Peter 3:17] Stability means steadfastness in faith. Something they apparently have in equal standing with Peter, but something they can still lose.

Now the beautiful thing about these verses is that they are written by the same apostle that denied Jesus. Jesus predicted that Peter would deny him. Not only that, Jesus also predicted that Peter would turn back to him in repentance. This is made very clear in Luke 22:31-32 where Jesus says, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” This indicates that Peter could have been sifted like wheat by Satan even though he was already a believer. If Peter could not have lost his salvation than the verses are pointless and there would be no necessity for Jesus to pray that Peter would “turn again.” Peter was justified and then denied Jesus, and then repented to turn again to Jesus.

The author of the book of Hebrews is also talking to believers(Hebrew converts) when he gives a warning. In Hebrews 2:1 it says “Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.” These are Christians that have been justified and they are warned not to drift away or they will suffer the eternal consequences of hell. In Hebrews 6:4-8 it says, For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” Clearly these are justified Christians because they are partakers of the Holy Spirit, yet they do not have the grace to persevere and they go into apostasy. Once in apostasy they are done for.

 

[Pax]

“No one” is a universal: No one, not even the believer himself: No one.

John 10:26-30 is not an unqualified universal statement. You apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the hand of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent.

 

[BlestOne]

Sherlock:

Being safe from being snatched out of our Father’s hands is one thing; having the free will to voluntarily leave His hands is another.

This is exactly what I was goning to say. We have the free will to leave on our own if we choose and in that case we would not be “snatched” from the Father at all.

 

[Kurt_G]

E.E.N.S.:

Without the Holy Spirit we can do no good…but He doesn’t make us puppets, we need to co-operate with His graces and inspirations.

EENS, I chose one of your phrases to repeat, although many others were good. I sense that Sobolll and EA_Man are “afraid” to look at Holy Scriptures which would indicate our response to our Loving God is a lifelong process, not a one time event.

You guys have offered thoughtful answers to their OSAS verses (which we all know quite well), but neither Sobolll nor EA_Man have offered any response to even one of the numerous passages in Scripture alluding to our free wills allowing us to fall away from God. (Lazer, thanks for the Scripture list…I re-read every one of them carefully and will add a few to my list).

If these two are like one of my dear friends, their fear is based on a misconception of our beliefs. How many of us out here believe we alone are responsible for our good works in the Lord? Or that we are trying to “earn” our way to heaven? I hope none.

I wonder if EA_Man and Sobolll think they alone are responsible for their wonderful gift of faith in Jesus Christ and the Trinity. I think they know that their faith is a pure gift, given in grace by God.

Well, that is exactly how I see our good works—as a pure gift, given in grace by God. The good deeds that we do, as we do them as part of Christ’s mystical body, are truly, literally, not our own. They are a result of God’s free gift of grace to us.

Our Faith, Our Good Works… they both come as free gifts, through our “free will acceptance” of God’s wonderful grace.
But we must nurture both of them in our lives, by giving our free will assent to this grace. If we do, we have His guarantee that His grace will continue to flow.

There is a fair amount about our faith in Jesus Christ that we all could agree on, but a fair amount that we cannot agree on as well.

These two folks at least appear to recognize that Truth does exist, that we can search for Truth, and that Truth matters to us in the end. They have evidently come to this forum to try to spread their beliefs, and for that I would commend Sobolll and EA_Man. But for their selective ignorance of certain biblical passages I cannot commend them.

I say let them pick a few of Lazer’s passages, for starters, and we can all discuss them, and why they think their OSAS doctrine is not affected . These verses are also truly God’s word to us, just like “their” verses are, and they deserve to be discussed!

In the mean time, GOD BLESS US ALL!

 

[Lazerlike42]

EA_Man:

How do you know what the meaning of these passages are, if you don’t mind my asking?

I won’t make any assumptions, you can tell me yourself.

Furthermore, I agree that He is all that matters. But since I believe that, I can’t believe that it is my works that MAINTAIN my salvation any more than I can believe it was my works that gained my salvation.

Peace

I don’t know if anyody answerd this yet, but I know for two reasons.

Firstly, most of these are really pretty self explanitory. They’re pretty straightforward.

Secondly, I have an infallible Church to tell me what they mean, aside from the straightforwardness. Now, you may say that only God is infallible and that the Church is not, but if you do, then I have to ask how you know what they mean. It comes down to my fallible interpretation over your fallible interpretation. The difference is that I have a Church which is infallible to teach me, just like St. Peter talks about (2 Peter 3:16).

It’s interesting to note that one of the evidences that is looked for to determine if a piece of Scripture is inspired it to see if it claims to be anywhere. This is because the claim of inspiration is an incredibly bold one, and it is therefore very unlikely that one would claim this if it weren’t true. The Church makes the bold claim of infallibility, which is essentially the same as a piece of Scripture claiming inspiration. Just a side note though, because I thought it was interesting.

Now that I’ve answered that we must get back on topic so we don’t lose the thread.

 

[deb1]

DOes it bother OSAS believers that believing in once saved always saved makes the gospel contradict itself?

 

[Magicsilence]

deb1:

DOes it bother OSAS believers that believing in once saved always saved makes the gospel contradict itself?

When asking my priest why the protestants see through things like that he gave me a brill analogy:

The protestants built a fine looking shed, but when theyd finished they realised the foundations were all wrong, and that the jones had done a perfect one. Instead of rebuilding their shed they kept on repairing it and polishing, and so in the end it looked marvellous, had all the mod cons, and from the outside was more attractive than the joneses. But, floods that didnt affect the joneses shed began to rot the protestant shed because of its poor foundations, and after a length of time it collapsed, no longer being supported by all the changes and modifications previously made. And thus it will be with the churches. The protestants dont see things because of the sin of pride, talk to any one, youll know what i mean.

For example, if we say, “we apologise for something the church did in the past” Immediately they will say, “Look at how perfect our Church is, no bad history or anything”.

To admit they were wrong is TOO HARD.

Admitting that OSAS is wrong means a lifetime of hard work and suffering, thats why they defend it so vigorously and ignore evidence of the opposite.

For that reason alone, it is super rare to actually convince them they are wrong.

 

[SobolII]

Eternal Security is clearly taught in Scripture. As one of the posters here said, you are afraid to look at it. It is a matter of pride that you won’t, really. You all mention Scriptures against it, and yet miss the foundational Scriptures that lead to its support:

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

In the above verses, there are those that God foreknew, and predestined to be conformed to image of His Son; those He foreknew HE ALSO predestined, those He predestined HE ALSO called, those He called HE ALSO justified, those He justified HE ALSO glorified. Notice particularly the use of HE, and HE ALSO. Notice nothing is said of the called ones except the actions which God performs upon them.

Also:

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

In the above verses, God chose out before He said, “Let there be Light,” those whom HE would save. Notice again, HE CHOSE THEM, they did not choose Him. This is seen also in Jn 15:16, Jesus says to the Apostles, “I chose you…” they did not choose Him. No one chooses God; as no one is able to snatch the elect out of God’s hand, so no man is able without God’s hand to believe, or choose Him. The Psalmist also says “How blessed is the one whom YOU choose to bring near to YOU.” Salvation is from God, and it is a free gift (Grace) bestowed by God upon those whom HE CHOOSES.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

In the above verse, Paul says that after hearing the message of truth, the one who believes is “Sealed in HIM (Christ Jesus) with the H.S., who is also given as a pledge (down payment, earnest, etc.).

The great difficulty that you who are indigenous to this forum have, is that you don’t believe that God has done what He says that He has done (chose whom He will save), and you also don’t believe that He has the power to save those that He has chosen to save, because you believe that your will is greater, and more precious than the will of the one who made you. You believe that God does not, nay, CANNOT violate the will of the creature. That is because you spend too much time reading the ECF’s and the catechism, and not enough time reading the Bible. In short, you do not know God. You cannot, because Paul tells us in 1 Cor 2 that the spiritual man understands these things, and you do not understand them; that is why you fight against them so much.

As far as the fellow who stated that Peter was writing to believers, all of the writers of the N.T. epistles assume that they are writing to believers. But the truth is, they don’t know. Only God knows who the true believer is. The apostles, as well as the everyday man, is left to looking at the fruits anyone exhibits, that is what James is saying about faith and works. Not that works save, but that works SHOW who is bearing fruit. Only God knows the heart; men look for evidence, as James says.

Salvation is all from God. James 4:12 tells us that there is only One who is able to save, and able to destroy; that one is God.

Not you; not your works; but, God who saves.

I am not going to deal with the Hebrews passages, because you who quoted them simply do not understand them, and I know that it is a waste of my time to write it out for you, knowing that you will only reject what I say. Just know that you are wrong.

As far as the exhortations to persevere, they are necessary. Perseverance of the believer is a must. That is what people of my persuasion call “sanctification.” But you must understand that it is also God who gives the true believer perseverance, and it is also God who sanctifies.

As far as the one who said that Protestants don’t want to work, you couldn’t be more wrong. Your attitude is self-righteous, and not realizing that it is God who is at work in the believer to will and to work for His good pleasure (Php 2:13). So much for your free will notion. It is God who works the believer’s will.

 

[SobolII]

Church Militant:

Ya mean to tell me that you haven’t read it all the way through?

I’ll take your answer to mean that you haven’t a clue.

 

[blackfish152]

Eternal Security is clearly taught in Scripture. As one of the posters here said, you are afraid to look at it. It is a matter of pride that you won’t, really. You all mention Scriptures against it, and yet miss the foundational Scriptures that lead to its support:

I wish you would look at the scripture already quoted that Refutes it and attempt to show us all how it is wrong.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

In the above verses, there are those that God foreknew, and predestined to be conformed to image of His Son; those He foreknew HE ALSO predestined, those He predestined HE ALSO called, those He called HE ALSO justified, those He justified HE ALSO glorified. Notice particularly the use of HE, and HE ALSO. Notice nothing is said of the called ones except the actions which God performs upon them.

Great piece of Scripture, read at Mass last week If I remember correctly, answer this would you? How do absolutely know, Currently,at this moment in time (remember the context of the verse is past tense) as you sit in front of your computer, know those whom He, The Almighty, Foreknew and predestined to spend eternity with him, etc…?

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

In the above verse, Paul says that after hearing the message of truth, the one who believes is “Sealed in HIM (Christ Jesus) with the H.S., who is also given as a pledge (down payment, earnest, etc.).

Can one loose the Grace bestowed by the presence of the Holy spirit? can One loose the Holy spirit after receiving it? The answer from scripture is YES!

God show you the Answer, I humbly pray.

M.

 

[michaelgazin]

SobolII:

You all mention Scriptures against it, and yet miss the foundational Scriptures that lead to its support.

And there we have it, a confession that eternal security can only be true by ignoring certain Scripture passages that are conflicting.

We should consider those passages that are “against it,” while reading those that supposedly support it in context.

 

[SobolII]

blackfish152:

I wish you would look at the scripture already quoted that Refutes it and attempt to show us all how it is wrong.

There is no Scripture that refutes it. The Scriptures you quote as a refutation you do not understand. You are prooftexting by what you think they say; your interpretation is wrong.

blackfish152:

Great piece of Scripture, read at Mass last week If I remember correctly, answer this would you? How do absolutely know, Currently,at this moment in time (remember the context of the verse is past tense) as you sit in front of your computer, know those whom He, The Almighty, Foreknew and predestined to spend eternity with him, etc…?

I said above, only God knows who they are. I can only go by the fruit that people exhibit. What does knowing who the elect are have to do with eternal security? Both are taught in Scripture. Your beef is with the Word, not with me. By the way, one who is of the elect can know; Scripture is very clear on that also.

blackfish152:

Can one loose the Grace bestowed by the presence of the Holy spirit? can One loose the Holy spirit after receiving it? The answer from scripture is YES!

Again, the Scripture does not teach this. You don’t believe, because you don’t know God. You believe that God is impotent to save those that He clearly says that He has chosen. There is an axiom that says, "If you think you can lose your salvation, you probably will. I think that you never had it in the first place.

Trust in God, not in yourself.