OSAS & Matt 7: 22-23

[Chris_W]

Having a discussion with a friend of mine about OSAS and he argues that Matt 7, 22-23 which says, "On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ confirms his arugment that if one falls into sin after their acceptance of Jesus as Savior, it must not have been a legitmate conversion…they were never really saved to begin with, because God says He never **knew them.

I was aruging that the parable of the vine and the branches provides evidence that one can in fact be born of God thru Baptism and then be cut off from the vine.

His homework is to come up with a good interpretation to the vine & branches parable…mine is to respond to the quote from Matthew…

Any ideas how to respond to this?

 

[Pax]

I think your friend is going to have more difficulties because of this verse than anticipated. It does not argue for OSAS and it argues against faith alone.

The Haydock Bible Commentary says the following:

Ver. 18. A good tree cannot yield bad fruit, &c. Not but that both good and bad men may change their lives. This, according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, is only to be understood while they remain such. If a bad tree begin to produce good fruit, it becomes a good tree, &c. (Witham) — For not those who do one or two good works are just, but those who continue permanently to do good: in the same manner, not those who commit one or two bad actions are wicked, but those who continue in evil. (Menochius)

Ver. 21. Here Jesus Christ shews, that it is not sufficient to believe in him and hear his words, but that in order to salvation, we must join works with faith; for in this shall we be examined at the last day. (Menochius) — Without faith they could not cry out, Lord, Lord. (Romans x.) But the strongest faith without the works of justice, will not be available to salvation. (1 Corinthians xiii.) (Bristow) — Many who have the Lord continually in their mouths, but care little about putting on the Lord, or penetrating themselves with his true spirit, will find their presumption, and the false consciences they have made to themselves, wofully disappointed. (Haydock)

Ver. 22. Have not we prophesied in thy name? The gift of prophecy, and of doing miracles, may sometimes be granted to bad men, as to Caiphas, and Balaam. (Witham) — Under the name of prophets, the Hebrews comprised not only such as predicted future events, but also in general all such as gave themselves out for inspired, or who undertook teaching and interpreting the holy Scriptures; and here by prophesying is understood, in a general acceptation, all public functions, predicting futurity, expounding Scripture, instructing the people, preaching, &c. (Bible de Vence)

Ver. 23. So as to approve and reward your works. Here he shews that even prophecy and miracles will not save us without good works. (Menochius) — How much less will faith, unassisted by good works, preserve us from condemnation. (Haydock) — The gift of miracles is bestowed on men not for their own good, but for the advantage of others. We must not then be surprised if men, who had indeed faith in Christ, but whose lives did not correspond with their faith, should be honoured with these extraordinary gifts, since the Almighty sometimes employs as his instruments in working similar wonders, men destitute both of faith and virtue. Balaam, void of faith and probity, still by the will of God, prophesied for the advantage of others. To Pharao and Nabuchodonosor were revealed future events of the greatest moment; and the wicked Judas himself cast out devils. Therefore St. Paul said, “if I had all faith so as to remove mountains, and if I knew all mysteries, and was possessed of all wisdom, but had not charity, I am nothing.” (St. Chrysostom, Hom. xv.)

I hope this helps.

 

[Chris_W]

Thanks Pax! That does help.

Having contemplated it over night, I’m also thinking that the focus on “never knew” wouldn’t hold up either: If it literally meant God never knew the person, who created that person’s soul? God had to have known the person at some point, for God willfully created that soul. I’m thinking the word never must therefore pertain to the time while the person was performing the prophesy or miracles…God saying in essense, “while you were doing those things I was never with you”.

Thx,
Chris

 

[Pax]

Thanks Pax! That does help.

Having contemplated it over night, I’m also thinking that the focus on “never knew” wouldn’t hold up either: If it literally meant God never knew the person, who created that person’s soul? God had to have known the person at some point, for God willfully created that soul. I’m thinking the word never must therefore pertain to the time while the person was performing the prophesy or miracles…God saying in essense, “while you were doing those things I was never with you”.

Thx,
Chris

That is a good observation.

 

[Vince1022]

Having a discussion with a friend of mine about OSAS and he argues that Matt 7, 22-23 which says, "On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ confirms his arugment that if one falls into sin after their acceptance of Jesus as Savior, it must not have been a legitmate conversion…they were never really saved to begin with, because God says He never **knew them.

I was aruging that the parable of the vine and the branches provides evidence that one can in fact be born of God thru Baptism and then be cut off from the vine.

His homework is to come up with a good interpretation to the vine & branches parable…mine is to respond to the quote from Matthew…

Any ideas how to respond to this?

I would say that this passage from Matthew is not about those who sin following baptism/conversion, but rather those who claim to be following God when in fact they’re not. Hypocrites.

 

[Cathoholic]

Chris,

Matt 7, 22-23 "On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

I would re-affirm what Pax just said. Point out that they were evil DOERS (this argues against Justification by faith ALONE) and that’s WHY they are being rejected here.

Your friend might say “Well these guys didn’t have faith either because they never knew Jesus”.

OK fine but Jesus still points out the gravity of these guys as evil DOERS so this is integral to their “departure”.

I’d also affirm to him that Jesus DOES say this to people He NEVER knew.

But Jesus ALSO says this to people HE KNEW!

We know this with certainty because the Bible says so. Listen to St. Peter’s admonition in 2nd Peter 2. They knew Jesus as their “personal Lord and savior” (to use likely language your friend would) and were worse off afterward when they fell because of the grace they rejected – The whole principle of “To whom much is given much is REQUIRED (Luke 12:48).

Listen to the words of St. Peter (using the NIV – a Protestant translation) . . . . .

2nd PETER 2:20a 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world
by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

St. Peter is about to tell us about people who have escaped the corruption of the world!
How? How did they escape the corruption of the world?

They escaped the corruption of the world by KNOWING Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, the same way anyone else escapes the corruption of the world.

“Knowing someone” in Scripture is a very intimate term. It signifies an intimate relationship. These guys had an intimate relationship with Jesus.

So some individuals that knew Jesus as Lord as “Lord and Savior” do what?

2nd PETER 2:20a 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by
knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
and are again entangled in it and **overcome **. . .

Now what? These saved people are “overcome” by getting entangled in the corruption of the world! Notice incidentally that saved individuals can be overcome by getting entangled in the corruption of the world! Are these guys going to Heaven anyway? After all they really KNEW Jesus as “Lord and Savior.” Scripture says so!

Are they going to Heaven anyway? No!

2nd PETER 2:20-21 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by
knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end then they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Notice vs. 20 tells us they knew Jesus as “Lord and Savior.”
Notice they are “entangled” then what? Saved anyway!? NO! They are OVERCOME!

St. Peter then says that they would have been better off if they had never known Jesus!

Does this sound like someone who is merely backsliding? No!
Does this sound like someone who is saved (someone who is better off not knowing Jesus in the first place)? No!

And then St. Peter describes these guys who knew Jesus as Lord and Savior with very vivid terms.

2nd PETER 2:22 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”
and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[po18guy]

Thanks Pax! That does help.

Having contemplated it over night, I’m also thinking that the focus on “never knew” wouldn’t hold up either: If it literally meant God never knew the person, who created that person’s soul? God had to have known the person at some point, for God willfully created that soul. I’m thinking the word never must therefore pertain to the time while the person was performing the prophesy or miracles…God saying in essense, “while you were doing those things I was never with you”.

Thx,
Chris

“These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” points to whom our Lord was speaking of. But, I would advise to avoid being drawn into a war of verses. As in all wars, there are no winners. Better, I think, to lift him up before the Holy Spirit. Pray twice. Talk once.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Your friend has another problem I didn’t see mentioned on a skim-through (although you have very good answers already). If your friend was 100% right that these were evildoers who falsely went forth in Christ’s name, then why must we understand the text to mean everyone who goes to hell falsely went forth in God’s name at one point? Why can’t there be a class of people not mentioned in this text who genuinely went forth in God’s name for a time, that He “knew” as His own, who then fell away in a time of temptation or something? Your friend is adding words to the text that are not there.

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

My personal commentary on this passage:

it is quite possible Jesus was using an Rabbinical expression. This is noted by Samuel Tobias Lachs in his A rabbinic commentary on the New Testament, who on page 150 of his book notes that “never knew you” is “An expression of rejection used by the Rabbis, often as a form of a ban,” then cites instances in Talmudic literature, such as MQ 16a (Mo’ed Katan), which has a story about a rabbi that told a person he knew that “I have never known thee.” In addition, St Cyril of Alexandria commenting on Matthew 7:21-23 says:

"There may be some who, in the beginning, believed rightly and assiduously labored at virtue. They may have even worked miracles and prophesied and cast out demons. And yet later they are found turning aside to evil, to self assertive deception and desire. Of these Jesus remarks that he "never knew them." He ranks them as equivalent to those who were never knew by him at all...."--St Cyril of Alexandria, fragment 88

It should also be noted that Prophecy does not even necessarily show proof of salvation since the High Priest that sought the death of Christ in John 11 seems to speak prophecy, and 1 Corinthians 13 says:

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.-1 Corinthians 13:2

Now, some claim these people are bragging about their works, so they cannot be saved. However, look closely, they are not!

Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'

These people are attributing these deeds to GOD, not themselves!

Some will claim these are just false prophets, it could be they became false prophets, however, consider this, can a person fake casting out demons? Jesus accused the Pharisees of blaspheme for saying God is not the one that casts out the demons.

Conclusion: Though there are verses that certainly teach there are false converts,
Matthew 7:21-23 is not likely one of them.

thisholysword.blogspot.com/2010/08/commentary-on-matthew-721-23.html