OSAS you got a BIG PROBLEM

[rinnie]

My own opinion of the matter is that while the son was far off living his life…the Father was still loving him…looking for him each and every day…and when “he saw him a long way off”…the Father ran to him. The son was not “dead” to the Father…the son was “dead” to the life the Father had for him…both sons had issues…one son sqandered his “birthright” as a son of the Father…the other “squandered” his “birthright” at home, being found to be angry and jealous that the Father would still love the son that left home.

The story isn’t about the state of the son who left…OR is it about the state of the son who staryed…BUT about the love and faithfulness of the Father…who evidently knew the son would return home since he looked for him each day so he could run to greet him when he returned.

I’m not sure that the story is talking about “mortal sin”…or “venial sin”…but the deep love of the Father for his children…to miss that point is to miss the whole point of the story.

You wish to read other things into the story…that’s fine…but it has nothing to do with OSAS…“states of sin” or the such…it’s part of the parables Jesus told about the love of the Father…it fits right along side the “Shepherd left the 99 sheep to find the one lost lamb”…or the woman “who swept her whole house to find the one lost coin”

The stories are saying…“This is what God is like…a faithful loving Father that you do not have to fear coming to…you will be received with joy…God is like a Shepherd…who will carry you back to the fold when He finds you…God is as thorough as a woman who will clean her whole house to find the one lost coin.”

The author of Luke is speaking toward God’s love and mercy…not directly to the “sin” of either son…and THAT for me is the most wonderful thing about these stories…God searches for “that which was lost”…“that which was dead”…and rejoices when we are found…or when we come home…

To read OSAS or “state of sin” into these very profound simple stories…is to loose sight of the love and faithfulness of the Father in our lostness…

If you find your “take” on the parables more compelling…I’m good…I just don’t see how the title of your thread has any bearing on the parable…OSAS is not a “BIG PROBLEM” in this parable…it’s not addressed at all.

Ah, now I will explain to you why it is. Now according to the teaching’s of the Apostles when a soul in dead it is in sin, when a soul is alive again it is free from sin.

Now if you are one saved always saved you cannot be ALIVE AGAIN, do you get my point. Alive again means to be once again FREE from sin.

The lost sheep in the bible are the sheep who have strayed from the Father, do you not agree? Like myself I can quit going to Church, quit receiving Christ in the Eucharist, and live lets say with a married man, while I myself am married to someone.

I am considered LOST, DEAD in sin.

Now according to the word of GOD when you are in sin you are dead. Remember what Jesus said don’t be afraid of the death of the body, Jesus took away that when he died on the cross. He gave us ETERNAL life of the SOUL which is alive again. But if we are in a state of MORTAL SIN, that means death of the Soul.

How do we become ALIVE AGAIN? What does ST Peter tells us, REPENT.

 

[rinnie]

My own opinion of the matter is that while the son was far off living his life…the Father was still loving him…looking for him each and every day…and when “he saw him a long way off”…the Father ran to him. The son was not “dead” to the Father…the son was “dead” to the life the Father had for him…both sons had issues…one son sqandered his “birthright” as a son of the Father…the other “squandered” his “birthright” at home, being found to be angry and jealous that the Father would still love the son that left home.

The story isn’t about the state of the son who left…OR is it about the state of the son who staryed…BUT about the love and faithfulness of the Father…who evidently knew the son would return home since he looked for him each day so he could run to greet him when he returned.

I’m not sure that the story is talking about “mortal sin”…or “venial sin”…but the deep love of the Father for his children…to miss that point is to miss the whole point of the story.

You wish to read other things into the story…that’s fine…but it has nothing to do with OSAS…“states of sin” or the such…it’s part of the parables Jesus told about the love of the Father…it fits right along side the “Shepherd left the 99 sheep to find the one lost lamb”…or the woman “who swept her whole house to find the one lost coin”

The stories are saying…“This is what God is like…a faithful loving Father that you do not have to fear coming to…you will be received with joy…God is like a Shepherd…who will carry you back to the fold when He finds you…God is as thorough as a woman who will clean her whole house to find the one lost coin.”

The author of Luke is speaking toward God’s love and mercy…not directly to the “sin” of either son…and THAT for me is the most wonderful thing about these stories…God searches for “that which was lost”…“that which was dead”…and rejoices when we are found…or when we come home…

To read OSAS or “state of sin” into these very profound simple stories…is to loose sight of the love and faithfulness of the Father in our lostness…

If you find your “take” on the parables more compelling…I’m good…I just don’t see how the title of your thread has any bearing on the parable…OSAS is not a “BIG PROBLEM” in this parable…it’s not addressed at all.

How do you see that the Son that obeyed his Father to be lost? I do not understand. He did not understand how his Father could forgive, but he learned that a Fathers Loves never dies.

The Other SON Said he sinned against heaven and against you. HE repented to the Father did he not? The Father was filled with compassion he FORGAVE him.

You do not see that the son was in a state of SIn? Then why did he say it, He said I SINNED? What state do you feel he was in? I mean he said it in black and white. He said I SINNED? How can you miss him being in a state of Sin if he stated it?

Back to my question is talking you inheritence a sin? Or is squandering it with a life of dissipation a sin.

If taking your inheritence is a sin why was the other son not in a state of sin? If he was why did the Father state my Son you are here WITH ME ALWAYS, which states he did not sin.

Because he said YOUR BROTHER WAS DEAD but has come back to LIFE AGAIN. come back to LIFE again. Not home again come back to LIFE again. AGAIN, he had to be alive once do you not agree? DId he die to sin? As the Church teaches, if not what does it mean to COME back to live AGAIN?

 

[Publisher]

Friend Rinnie,

I don’t disagree necessarily with anything you’ve written…my point was the parable does not address the Calivnistic doctrine of OSAS…nor is it about the sons…but more is it about the Father…we could discuss the son who stayed with the Father and saw himself as his Father’s slave and even accused his Father…“you never gave me…”…parables have meaning when they address what they were given for…in this case the love and faithfulness of the Father. Jesus was saying…as with the “Lost Sheep” and “Lost Coin”…“This is what God is like.” To miss that point is to miss the depth of the love of the Father…IMO.

As I said before…if you see other meanings…I’m good.

 

[rinnie]

Friend Rinnie,

I don’t disagree necessarily with anything you’ve written…my point was the parable does not address the Calivnistic doctrine of OSAS…nor is it about the sons…but more is it about the Father…we could discuss the son who stayed with the Father and saw himself as his Father’s slave and even accused his Father…“you never gave me…”…parables have meaning when they address what they were given for…in this case the love and faithfulness of the Father. Jesus was saying…as with the “Lost Sheep” and “Lost Coin”…“This is what God is like.” To miss that point is to miss the depth of the love of the Father…IMO.

As I said before…if you see other meanings…I’m good.

I sure do buddy. But would you say that the Son was saved before he left the Fathers house?

 

[Publisher]

I sure do buddy. But would you say that the Son was saved before he left the Fathers house?

Depends on what you mean by “saved”…he was living in his father’s house…I’m not OSAS by the way…I’m a “hopeful universalist”.

 

[rinnie]

Depends on what you mean by “saved”…he was living in his father’s house…I’m not OSAS by the way…I’m a “hopeful universalist”.

Okay do you agree or disagree that to be saved means to not be in a state of sin, Simply because we cannot enter into heaven with sin.

What does being Saved mean to you

 

[Publisher]

Okay do you agree or disagree that to be saved means to not be in a state of sin, Simply because we cannot enter into heaven with sin.

What does being Saved mean to you

Christians are not to “live in states of sin”…being “saved” to me is being regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit by God’s astounding grace through faith in the work of Christ, which he did for us which we could not do for oursleves. It is Christ alone who cleanses us from sin…through Him we are baptized into His Body by the Spirit…a “saved” person lives like a “saved” person…if one does not live in the Newness of Life given freely to us by Christ…Life is not in us…being “saved”…aka “eternal life”, is for this world…“I have come that you may have life, and have it more abundantly.”…We are people of God NOW…to live like People of God…Eternal Life begins now…not later. We are now partakers of the divine nature…the Work is begun in us now…we are members of His Body now…we are cleansed from sin now…and through fellowship with Christ, He continues to cleanse us from all sin…

Being “saved” is both temporal and spiritual…as one Friend said…“If you plan on playing the piano when you die…you better start practicing now.”

 

[rinnie]

Christians are not to “live in states of sin”…being “saved” to me is being regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit by God’s astounding grace through faith in the work of Christ, which he did for us which we could not do for oursleves. It is Christ alone who cleanses us from sin…through Him we are baptized into His Body by the Spirit…a “saved” person lives like a “saved” person…if one does not live in the Newness of Life given freely to us by Christ…Life is not in us…being “saved”…aka “eternal life”, is for this world…“I have come that you may have life, and have it more abundantly.”…We are people of God NOW…to live like People of God…Eternal Life begins now…not later. We are now partakers of the divine nature…the Work is begun in us now…we are members of His Body now…we are cleansed from sin now…and through fellowship with Christ, He continues to cleanse us from all sin…

Being “saved” is both temporal and spiritual…as one Friend said…“If you plan on playing the piano when you die…you better start practicing now.”

Eternal life begins now? I have to think about that. I would say if you WANT eternal life IN CHRIST it depends on how you live now. But I do not see this life as eternal. Beings it is human life and it will end.

Eternal life to me is the life of your SOUL that will not end. It will be either in heaven Forever with Christ or in hell forever Without him.

Yes Jesus did come so that we may have life. A very good point. Did he not die so we could have eternal life. LIFE means what? Death means what? to you?

Did Christ not come for one reason and one reason only? To die right? But why did he HAVE to die?

 

[rinnie]

First John 5:11 And this is the testimony:
God gave us ETERNAL LIFE and this life is IN HIS SON. Whoever possesses the Son has life whoever DOES NOT possess the SON OF GOD DOES NOT have LIFE.

Think about that Pub, and put it together with the Prot. Son. ALIVE AGAIN!! Do you see where the Church is getting this truth now?

Also check this out.

First John 4. We are taught as I told you to listen to the Church. Now here is what the word says, We belong to God, and anyone who KNOWS GOD listens to US. While anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear US. This is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

Who is US Pub? Is it not the Apostles and their successors? Who was given authority to teach? US or the Apostles? Just something to think about is all.

 

[rinnie]

Christians are not to “live in states of sin”…being “saved” to me is being regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit by God’s astounding grace through faith in the work of Christ, which he did for us which we could not do for oursleves. It is Christ alone who cleanses us from sin…through Him we are baptized into His Body by the Spirit…a “saved” person lives like a “saved” person…if one does not live in the Newness of Life given freely to us by Christ…Life is not in us…being “saved”…aka “eternal life”, is for this world…“I have come that you may have life, and have it more abundantly.”…We are people of God NOW…to live like People of God…Eternal Life begins now…not later. We are now partakers of the divine nature…the Work is begun in us now…we are members of His Body now…we are cleansed from sin now…and through fellowship with Christ, He continues to cleanse us from all sin…

Being “saved” is both temporal and spiritual…as one Friend said…“If you plan on playing the piano when you die…you better start practicing now.”

After thinking what you said, I do pretty much agree with what you are saying.

But what happens when we screw up? Are alive in our sin, or dead in our sin?

 

[Publisher]

After thinking what you said, I do pretty much agree with what you are saying.

But what happens when we screw up? Are alive in our sin, or dead in our sin?

The Amplified Bible translates 1 John 1:9 “If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].”

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, **we have **an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” 1 John 2:1

We have an Advocate before God to “plead our case” as it were…He is all about reconcilliation and forgiveness…“For God so loved the world…” “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”

We share His nature…when we sin, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin…that’s His job…then He moves in us to complete His work.

As a Catholic, even you don’t believe that ‘venial’ sins separate you from God…you have an Advocate…and “mortal” sins can be forgiven through your sacrament of confession…“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just(right) to forgive us our sins and cleans us…”

We’re in Good Hands.

 

[onenow1]

Hi, All !. In the beginning man had no personal sin, till the fall of Adam. {Original sin } Jesus has redeemed us of this first tragedy to human kind,with obedience of Jesus, to the Father through Baptism by the blood of the cross.However ! Knowledge of evil remains, this is our cross and we must conquer it,as the Father explains to Cain in:

Gensis 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz1XCfy0RzO

Short form : Redemption for humanity has been accepted by the Father. Salvation is also accomplished in fear and trembling as St . Paul states.

My :twocents:worth.

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

The Amplified Bible translates 1 John 1:9 “If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].”

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, **we have **an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” 1 John 2:1

We have an Advocate before God to “plead our case” as it were…He is all about reconcilliation and forgiveness…“For God so loved the world…” “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”

We share His nature…when we sin, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin…that’s His job…then He moves in us to complete His work.

As a Catholic, even you don’t believe that ‘venial’ sins separate you from God…you have an Advocate…and “mortal” sins can be forgiven through your sacrament of confession…“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just(right) to forgive us our sins and cleans us…”

We’re in Good Hands.

Good and you are SO right my dear Friend. But now what happens if you REFUSE to repent.

Do you see where we are heading with this story now. The Son Repented. He said he sinned against heaven and his Father. So of course he was forgiven, But back to the question at hand OSAS, Impossible with this story.

Was the Son free from sin when he left. Yes he was. It was shown he did nothing wrong. But he then SInned, he admitted his sin, confessed it, he was in a state of mortal sin, as the Father stated my son was dead but is ALIVE AGAIN. He could not be ALIVE AGAIN if he was not alive in the first time.

Alive in the story has to mean without sin, then ALIVE again means without sin ONCE again.

 

[rinnie]

P.S. you are correct Pub venial sins do not separate us from God. But mortal sin does. The Prot.Son was in a state of Mortal sin, or he could not be alive again

 

[rinnie]

Found another one also
Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ set us free, so stand firm and do not SUBMIT AGAIN to the yoke of slavery.

How can you SUBMIT AGAIN if OSAS??

 

[jlhargus]

Found another one also
Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ set us free, so stand firm and do not SUBMIT AGAIN to the yoke of slavery. How can you SUBMIT AGAIN if OSAS??

JL: There are several good scriptures that refute OSAS. One I find most effective is Hb6:4-6
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8114790&postcount=324

 

[guanophore]

Also if this parable is meant only for the Jews why does it start out the tax collectors and sinners were ALL drawing near to listen to him. Does being a Jew all it requires to be a sinner? I think not.

Not all Jews are Tax Collectors and sinners, but those to whom He was preaching were.

Luke 15:1-2
15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

What would make you think they were NOT Jews?

Matt 15:24
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matt 10:5-7
5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[guanophore]

JL: If they would say, “he would have RETURNED no matter what”. I would say, he had to LEAVE first. If he RETURNED to a state of salvation he had to have first lost salvation to RETURN. Even if God FORCED him back. Also if God’s grace is irresistalbe how could he have resisted and left in the first place?

They say that God allows the sheep to wander, but calls them back, and disciplines them when they go astray.

Heb 12:7-11

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[guanophore]

JL: My response to dispensationalist would be, where is your scriptural evidence? Didn’t Jesus come to save Jews and Gentiles? Is there more than ONE OLIVE TREE, are Gentiles not grafted into that ONE olive tree? Yes Jesus preached only to the Jews, that was his mission. But the gospel he preached was the same gospel preached to the Gentiles.

Yeah, been there, done that!

They are taught that Jesus came to minister to the Jews, then sent the Apostles for the Gentiles. The Jews were blinded,and we are now in the “age of the Gentiles” after which, the Jews who are to be saved will be converted and at that time there will be one olive tree.

As far as Hebrews, this is not written for Gentiles, but to and for the Jews. I have also heard some very wild interpretations of these verses in Hebrews.

 

[guanophore]

Simple “yes” or “no” isn’t an answer…he was STILL his Father’s son even while he ate with the pigs…the story concerns the faithfulness and love of the Father. The son who stayed at home had become angry and bitter at how the Father bestowed his love to the son “that was dead”…was the son who harbored such anger, jealousy and “hatefulness” “saved”?

The parable has nothing to do with “OSAS”…to read it into the parable looses the impact of the amazing depth and love the Father had for both sons…IMO.

Of course, you may ascribe any meaning you wish to the parable…

Surely you arent’ suggesting that Jesus used false concepts in his parables? Do you think he used “poor theology” to illustrate the love of the Father? Did you slack a little on the details, just to make the story “work”?