OSAS you got a BIG PROBLEM

[rinnie]

I recently heard a pastor say, “We’re as saved as we want to be.” He meant that we cannot lose our salvation but we can forsake it. In my opinion, this seems to make the most sense of the scriptures.

If we cannot lose our salvation then why repent right?

 

[rinnie]

I see this as a parallel of Jesus saying we must be “born again”. Were you born previously? Yes. Were you alive previously? Yes. But were your born in the Spirit? No. But were you alive in the Spirit? No. Now you are born again. Now you are alive again.

There is a bit of truth to what you are saying. Yes we are born and then born again in the spirit. How you may ask? Simple saved from Sin by the death of Christ on the Cross. We call that Baptism.

But is this what no happens in the Prot. son, he was a Jew and was Circumcised. That’s what they did in the O.T. BUT he left the Fathers house.

Now how was we alive again. Remember the Father said he was dead but now alive again. LOST but now he was found.

Now back to what I asked are you saying he was not Born again in the Spirit and not Circumcised BEFORE he left the Fathers house. I think not. SO how do you explain alive AGAIN?

 

[jlhargus]

---

Who then can be saved? We are all lost, condemned and separated from God outside the shed blood of Jesus and His imputed righteousness for all believers. All of our righteous is as filthy rags. There are none righteous, not one.

JL: Why do you think no one can be saved, I don’t see your point could you clarify for me? Anyone can be saved there is no need for anyone to be lost. To believe one can’t lose salvation is unbiblical and self deception.

Have you ever had someone give you something most precious and then take it back?

JL: No, yet I can freely choose to sell or throw away a gift given to me. It’s mine to do with as I will. I am not FORCED to use it for the purpose it was given. God doesn’t force or take the gift back. WE sell or throw it away by our free will choice chosing sin over God. God always extends his grace to the sinner to repent, confess and be restored to grace, that’s why he gave us the Sacrament of Confession.

The fact that we are born in the flesh cannot be changed. The same is true in the spirit.

JL: Not according to scripture, Yes WE are BORN OF FLESH as all babies (original sin). But our flesh is CHANGED being BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit. Our spiritual dead souls are regenerated and indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Now we can overcome the flesh with God’s grace indwelling.

“Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine; Oh what a foretaste of glory divine; heir of salvation–purchased of God; born of His Spirit, washed in His blood…” These words sum it up.

JL: I’ll take scripture over a uninspired song. [Hb6:4 For it is impossible for **THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

2Pt2:20 For if AFTER they have escaped** the pollutions of the world THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN OVERCOME, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit AGAIN; and the sow THAT WAS WASHED to her wallowing in the mire.**

 

[jlhargus]

All of our righteous is as filthy rags.

JL: Notice the beginning of Isa64:6 ALL OF US HAVE BECOME LIKE SOMETHING UNCLEAN.

[Isa64:5 YOU come to the HELP of **THOSE who gladly DO RIGHT, WHO REMEMBER YOUR WAYS. BUT WHEN WE CONTINUED TO SIN against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved? 6 ALL OF US have BECOME LIKE ONE who is UNCLEAN, and ALL OUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS ARE LIKE FILTHY RAGS; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind OUR SINS SWEEP US AWAY. 7 NO ONE CALLS ON YOUR NAME or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away BECAUSE OF OUR SINS.]

I would guess the vast majority of Protestants who quote Is64:6 have never once read anymore than verse six. Most probably haven’t even looked up verse six at all. They HEARD it preached and simply believe and pass it on, in an oral tradition of men, made a doctrine of God, from generation to generation. Teaching ALL WORKS, whether in GRACE (saved) or SIN (unsaved), are as filthy rags before God. I heard it preached when I was Protestant.

The reason their righteous acts are like a polluted garment, or filthy rags, is because they were done in a state of sin. They had gone astray, were unfaithful to God. Living in a state of sin when they did those works. Their righteous acts were polluted by their sins. Righteous works are pleasing to God if we are in a state of grace (friendship with God). There is no reward (merit) for works, no matter how good, done in a state of sin (enmity with God). [Jer 17:10 I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART and examine the mind, to reward a man according to HIS CONDUCT, according to what his DEEDS deserve.] Scripture tells us many times we will be judged by our DEEDS.

In a state of grace (saved) good deeds exercises faith making faith and God’s grace grow and increase in the faithful believer. [Eph2:10 For WE ARE his workmanship, CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which GOD hath before ORDAINED that WE should WALK IN THEM.] It is totally ridiculous to say, we are God’s workmanship created in Christ to walk in good works, which God himself has prepared and given the grace for those IN CHRIST to do. Then say they are as filthy rags before God.

There are none righteous, not one.

JL: I think you are referring to Ps14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. You might find the Ampflied Bible more clear, biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2014&version=AMP

Ps97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked. 11 Light is sown for the RIGHTEOUS, and gladness for the upright in heart. 12 Rejoice in the LORD, ye RIGHTEOUS; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

Mt13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and RIGHTEOUS men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Lk1:5 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both RIGHTEOUS before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Is scripture in error and contradicting itself or is your interpretation, a tradition of men, in error?

 

[James_Least]

I believe someone may have ignored the qualifying part of the statement: all of our righteousness is as filthy rags WITHOUT THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. This is a truth which will stand through eternity. This applies to everyone, including the self-righteous.

Peace,

James Least

 

[rinnie]

I believe someone may have ignored the qualifying part of the statement: all of our righteousness is as filthy rags WITHOUT THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. This is a truth which will stand through eternity. This applies to everyone, including the self-righteous.

Peace,

James Least

James what does that have do with beiing alive again? No one here disagrees that our Salvation and Baptism is made us clean once again by Christ.

But you have not addressed what it means to be Saved, which is ALIVE and then become Dead which means sin, and then become ALIVE AGAIN which means OSAS does not fit.

Are you saying the Prot. Son was not saved when he left the Fathers house?

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

If we cannot lose our salvation then why repent right?

Well, first of all, I think it still hasn’t registered with you that I don’t subscribe to OSAS, but to answer your question, one should repent because it is the right thing to do—not because you expect a reward for doing so. That goes for whether you believe OSAS or not. For example, if I sin against my earthly father, I apologize because it’s the right thing to do and I value our relationship.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

There is a bit of truth to what you are saying. Yes we are born and then born again in the spirit. How you may ask? Simple saved from Sin by the death of Christ on the Cross. We call that Baptism.

But is this what no happens in the Prot. son, he was a Jew and was Circumcised. That’s what they did in the O.T. BUT he left the Fathers house.

Now how was we alive again. Remember the Father said he was dead but now alive again. LOST but now he was found.

Now back to what I asked are you saying he was not Born again in the Spirit and not Circumcised BEFORE he left the Fathers house. I think not. SO how do you explain alive AGAIN?

Funny. You disagreed “totally” a few weeks ago (post #21) but now there’s a bit of truth to what I’m saying? In post #24, you can read my response to you (#21)… and so on down the thread…

I’ll sum up exactly what I said before: I see this as a potential argument against OSAS, but I hardly see it as anything remotely compelling. If you do, hey, that’s great! I personally find other scriptures to be more compelling arguments against, but we’re different.

Select cliche: a) To each his own. b) Your mileage may vary.

 

[rinnie]

I disagree totally Let me explain why. Was I born previously no. I was dead with sin when I was born. I was reborn in the Spirit saved from sin at the moment of my Baptism. Saved from original sin. I became alive, saved.

Can I become dead like the Pro. son, Yes I can, just like him. I can become dead with sin. How do I become alive again and rid myself of the sin. The same as the Prod. Son, I must repent and confess my sin, be sorry and ask for forgiveness. Then I become once again alive.

Again read the scripture this sonof mine was DEAD that means with sin, hand has come to LIFE Again which means is saved. But the key word here is he is saying his son is SAVED AGAIN. Now if he was saved once, how can he be saved again? That’s my question and I have yet to acquire my answer.

Back to the point of this post, Blows OSAS right out of the water does it not?

Now my question to you, how can I be alive, which means saved without Baptism?

This was my response to you, and I still stand by it. I asked you were you reborn in the Spirit before your Baptism? Were you ALIVE which simply mean Born in the Spirit. If being AlIVE does not mean being born again in the Spirit then that means you are dead amd come back alive physically.

I

 

[rinnie]

There is a bit of truth to what you are saying. Yes we are born and then born again in the spirit. How you may ask? Simple saved from Sin by the death of Christ on the Cross. We call that Baptism.

But is this what no happens in the Prot. son, he was a Jew and was Circumcised. That’s what they did in the O.T. BUT he left the Fathers house.

Now how was we alive again. Remember the Father said he was dead but now alive again. LOST but now he was found.

Now back to what I asked are you saying he was not Born again in the Spirit and not Circumcised BEFORE he left the Fathers house. I think not. SO how do you explain alive AGAIN?

I took this as you talking of a physical birth as I stated. IF you read what I wrote in the first line I said are we BORN a physcial birth is what I was talking about. THEN I stated then BORN AGAIN in the SPIRIT. Again please re-read what I wrote and how I stated BORN AGAIN IN THE SPIRIT. I fill I was clear on that.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

This was my response to you, and I still stand by it. I asked you were you reborn in the Spirit before your Baptism? Were you ALIVE which simply mean Born in the Spirit. If being AlIVE does not mean being born again in the Spirit then that means you are dead amd come back alive physically.

I

Well, OK. I stand by my subsequent response to your response. If that doesn’t satisfy you and you stand by your response to my response to your response… head spinning …then please just re-read this thread because I am not going to retype or re-post our entire conversation that responds to these exact same questions.

 

[rinnie]

Funny. You disagreed “totally” a few weeks ago (post #21) but now there’s a bit of truth to what I’m saying? In post #24, you can read my response to you (#21)… and so on down the thread…

I’ll sum up exactly what I said before: I see this as a potential argument against OSAS, but I hardly see it as anything remotely compelling. If you do, hey, that’s great! I personally find other scriptures to be more compelling arguments against, but we’re different.

Select cliche: a) To each his own. b) Your mileage may vary.

Fine them amswer Was the Prot. Son ALIVE in the Spirit when he left the Fathers house simply answer yes or no.

Secondly if he was not how did he die and become ALIVE AGAIN then, Thats all I am asking. But you have not addressed the question. Actually everything but.

I refuse to sit here and argue with you are rather I misunderstood you or you misunderstood me. I see no reason to do so.

You will ether answer the question, or you cannot.

 

[rinnie]

Well, first of all, I think it still hasn’t registered with you that I don’t subscribe to OSAS, but to answer your question, one should repent because it is the right thing to do—not because you expect a reward for doing so. That goes for whether you believe OSAS or not. For example, if I sin against my earthly father, I apologize because it’s the right thing to do and I value our relationship.

It had registered to me that you do not subscribe to OSAS. Where did I ever say that you did agree with it.

Next we are not taught we SHOULD repent because it is the right thing to do. We are COMMADEND to Repent to be forgiven for our sins. I have never seen any teaching from the Apostles that we SHOULD repent, I have seen that we Must repent.

I do not see where when we repent we do it for a reward. Although I guess if one says the reward especially if you are in the state of Mortal sin, is to be reonciled with Christ, I can see that as a Major reward. But we repent because it is a command of God. not just because we feel its the right thing to do.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Fine them amswer Was the Prot. Son ALIVE in the Spirit when he left the Fathers house simply answer yes or no.

Secondly if he was not how die he die and become ALIVE AGAIN then, Thats all I am asking. But you have not addressed the question. Actually everything but.

Actually, I have answered it but I will grant you this ONE final reply to state that much.

Keep in mind, I do not claim my answer to be hard and fast fact. That would be arrogant and prideful. You seem to assert that there is no plausible counter argument and I disagree. You can choose not to like my counter argument or disagree with it, but you can’t pretend that it doesn’t exist.

Q: “Was the Prot. Son ALIVE in the Spirit when he left the Fathers house simply answer yes or no.”

A: You want to “simply” box me into “Yes” or “No” with no explanation? If the parallel does exist as I’ve put it forth, the answer is “No”. The reason is, as I’ve explained, is that there would be two meanings to the word “alive” just like there are two meanings to the word “born” in John 3. Nicodemus was born [physically] without being “born” [of the Spirit]. In a similar way, the Prod Son was alive [physically] without being “alive” [spiritually]. Jesus said that we must be born “again” so clearly we can be born physically and spiritually and use the word “again” within this context. In the same way, the word “again” makes logical sense with the Prod son being alive “again”.

Q: “Secondly if he was not how die he die and become ALIVE AGAIN then, Thats all I am asking.”

A: See above answer.

 

[rinnie]

Actually, I have answered it but I will grant you this ONE final reply to state that much.

Keep in mind, I do not claim my answer to be hard and fast fact. That would be arrogant and prideful. You seem to assert that there is no plausible counter argument and I disagree. You can choose not to like my counter argument or disagree with it, but you can’t pretend that it doesn’t exist.

Q: “Was the Prot. Son ALIVE in the Spirit when he left the Fathers house simply answer yes or no.”

A: You want to “simply” box me into “Yes” or “No” with no explanation? If the parallel does exist as I’ve put it forth, the answer is “No”. The reason is, as I’ve explained, is that there would be two meanings to the word “alive” just like there are two meanings to the word “born” in John 3. Nicodemus was born [physically] without being “born” [of the Spirit]. In a similar way, the Prod Son was alive [physically] without being “alive” [spiritually]. Jesus said that we must be born “again” so clearly we can be born physically and spiritually and use the word “again” within this context. In the same way, the word “again” makes logical sense with the Prod son being alive “again”.

Q: “Secondly if he was not how die he die and become ALIVE AGAIN then, Thats all I am asking.”

A: See above answer.

Okay thank-you. Now here is where I believe you have a problem. You said NO he was not Alive. Now Please go back and read the story. If he was not ALIVE how can he be alive AGAIN.

Please think what I am saying here. If he was dead, which would of course mean as we both agree I hope, NOT ALIVE in the Spirit he could not be Alive at all in the first place.

Then how could he be ALIVE AGAIN, AGAIN as I stated is the key word.

If the saying stated my son was dead but now he is alive. I would agree 100% with you. Then he was not saved but then became saved in the Spirit.

But it say my son was dead, but is alive AGAIN. Explain again. In the Catholic CHurch we are BORN into the Spirit, until our baptism we are not BORN in the Spirit.

Now according to the story the son HAD to be born in the Spirit to be ALIVE and the DEAD and the ALIVE AGAIN.

Once more you are saying the son was not ALIVE in the Spirit, if not how was he DEAD and then alive AGAIN. Explain AGAIN.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

It had registered to me that you do not subscribe to OSAS. Where did I ever say that you did agree with it.

Next we are not taught we SHOULD repent because it is the right thing to do. We are COMMADEND to Repent to be forgiven for our sins. I have never seen any teaching from the Apostles that we SHOULD repent, I have seen that we Must repent.

You’re playing a game of semantics. Because we are commanded to do so, we should do so, but not everyone does. Everyone MUST repent but not everyone does repent.

I do not see where when we repent we do it for a reward. Although I guess if one says the reward especially if you are in the state of Mortal sin, is to be reonciled with Christ, I can see that as a Major reward. But we repent because it is a command of God. not just because we feel its the right thing to do.

Earlier you asked, “If we cannot lose our salvation then why repent right?” You seem to state the only reason to repent is not to lose salvation. In other words, if salvation is not able to be lost, there is no other reason to repent. That is not true. Further, I did not state that the ONLY reason we repent is because we feel it is the right thing to do. But it would seem to me that a repentance due solely to command but no movement of the heart would be no repentance at all.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Okay thank-you. Now here is where I believe you have a problem. You said NO he was not Alive. Now Please go back and read the story. If he was not ALIVE how can he be alive AGAIN.

Please think what I am saying here. If he was dead, which would of course mean as we both agree I hope, NOT ALIVE in the Spirit he could not be Alive at all in the first place.

Then how could he be ALIVE AGAIN, AGAIN as I stated is the key word.

If the saying stated my son was dead but now he is alive. I would agree 100% with you. Then he was not saved but then became saved in the Spirit.

But it say my son was dead, but is alive AGAIN. Explain again. In the Catholic CHurch we are BORN into the Spirit, until our baptism we are not BORN in the Spirit.

Now according to the story the son HAD to be born in the Spirit to be ALIVE and the DEAD and the ALIVE AGAIN.

Once more you are saying the son was not ALIVE in the Spirit, if not how was he DEAD and then alive AGAIN. Explain AGAIN.

This is my final reply to you in this thread because I can’t keep stating the same thing over and over again

I did not say that he wasn’t alive. I said that he wasn’t alive in the Spirit. Nicodemus was born but he was not born of the Spirit. If he had been, it would have been said that he was born “again”.

 

[rinnie]

You’re playing a game of semantics. Because we are commanded to do so, we should do so, but not everyone does. Everyone MUST repent but not everyone does repent.

Earlier you asked, “If we cannot lose our salvation then why repent right?” You seem to state the only reason to repent is not to lose salvation. In other words, if salvation is not able to be lost, there is no other reason to repent. That is not true. Further, I did not state that the ONLY reason we repent is because we feel it is the right thing to do. But it would seem to me that a repentance due solely to command but no movement of the heart would be no repentance at all.

No, is we need to REPENT and confess our sin and are in a state of Mortal sin we ALREADY lost our Salvation. Repentance and Confession is the ONLY way to gain it back.

Now next question because you have lost me here. Why would I repent and confess my sin if I was not truly sorry? Where would that gain me forgivmess from God.

GOD knows a heart and I can confess and repent on the outside all I want. If it does not come from the inside and reflect on the outside it is in vain.

Back to the moral of the story if the Son was not SAVEd, which means ALIVE how could he be ALIVE AGAIN if he was not saved, or as we say ALVE in the first place.

It would be like me saying I am going to have another child. I could I have another Child AGAIN if I never had one to begin with?

 

[rinnie]

This is my final reply to you in this thread because I can’t keep stating the same thing over and over again

I did not say that he wasn’t alive. I said that he wasn’t alive in the Spirit. Nicodemus was born but he was not born of the Spirit. If he had been, it would have been said that he was born “again”.

And I continue to ask you if he was mot ALIVE in the SPIRIT how could he be ALIVE AGAIN? You refuse to answer the question.

You keep stating he was NOT alive in the first place. THen how can he be ALIVE AGAIN? Just because you cannot answer the question is not need to be angry with me.

You continue to say, the way I see it he was never born again. OKAY I accept that, then if he was never BORN, ALIVE, BAPTISED, what we call born again or alive in the Spirit how could he be alive in the Sprit AGAIN.

Explain to how we was dead once, but is alive again, if dead does not mean dead in sin?

 

[rinnie]

This is my final reply to you in this thread because I can’t keep stating the same thing over and over again

I did not say that he wasn’t alive. I said that he wasn’t alive in the Spirit. Nicodemus was born but he was not born of the Spirit. If he had been, it would have been said that he was born “again”.

Nicodemus was born but he was not ALIVE. He was not ALIVE in the spirit until he was born of the Spirit. The Son had to be born in the Spirit to be Alive AGAIN.

If the Father would have said as I will REPEAT myself my son was dead but now he is alive I could accept he was never alive in the first place.

The Father said my son was dead but is now alive AGAIN. You refuse to explain again.