OSAS you got a BIG PROBLEM

[rinnie]

As I have stated not one person has explained how the Son was DEAD but is not Alive AGAIN.

To say that the Son was dead, anotherwards never Alive in the Spirit in the first place would mean simply he could not be Dead but is now ALIVE AGAIN.

To be reborn or born again means to be born of the Spirit. I agree with that. But the Son was Dead but is not Alive. AGAIN. To be Alive AGAIN means he would have had to be ALIVE in the first place in the spirit. OR he could not be ALIVE AGAIN.

I seem to get no response on this or alot of anger, I do not understand why.

If I am alive im the Spirit meams I am not im a state of sin, If I am in a state of sin, I am dead in spirit. If I repent, confess and quit the sin, I am like the Son ALIVE AGAIN in Christ and in the Spirit.

If you are OSAS how can the Son be dead and then alive AGAIN? You cannot be ALIVE in Christ without ALIVE in the Spirit. You cannot be saved without Being Alive. And you cannot be ALIVE if you in a state of sin.

 

[rinnie]

This is my final reply to you in this thread because I can’t keep stating the same thing over and over again

I did not say that he wasn’t alive. I said that he wasn’t alive in the Spirit. Nicodemus was born but he was not born of the Spirit. If he had been, it would have been said that he was born “again”.

ANd it was said the SON was alive AGAIN.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Nicodemus was born but he was not ALIVE. He was not ALIVE in the spirit until he was born of the Spirit. The Son had to be born in the Spirit to be Alive AGAIN.

If the Father would have said as I will REPEAT myself my son was dead but now he is alive I could accept he was never alive in the first place.

The Father said my son was dead but is now alive AGAIN. You refuse to explain again.

I don’t refuse to explain it. You refuse to read my explanation of it.

See post #113… forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8354791&postcount=113

 

[Pitcharan]

The author of OSAS got everything wrong at the very outset. The term ONCE SAVED is a himalyan error because ‘salvation is a process’ and NOT ‘an event’.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t refuse to explain it. You refuse to read my explanation of it.

See post #113… forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8354791&postcount=113

I have read your explaination loud and clear. You are saying if you have to answer your answer is No, The Pro SOn was NOT saved. He he was not saved he was not alive in the Spirit. But Jesus says.

What is born of the flesh is born of the flesh and what is born of the Spirit is born of the Spirit. Dont be amazed that I told you. You MUST be born from above. The WIND blows where it wills and you can hear the sound it makes but you do not KNOW where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

He said to Nicodemus You are a teacher and YOU do not understand this???

The greek word anothen means both from above and again. Jesus means from Above but Nicodemus understands it as AGAIN.

Do you not understand what Jesus was saying to him. Let me repeat No one can enter the kingdom of heaven without being born of water AND Spirit. You MUST be born from UP ABOVE.

What is born of flesh is flesh and what is borm of spirit IS spirit.

Again do not misunderstand as he did. You are not Born Again in the flesh you are not born AGAIN in the Spirit. You cannot be born AGAIN in the Spirit anymore then in the Flesh. We are born ONCE in the Spirit and once in the flesh.

 

[rinnie]

I have read your explaination loud and clear. You are saying if you have to answer your answer is No, The Pro SOn was NOT saved. He he was not saved he was not alive in the Spirit. But Jesus says.

What is born of the flesh is born of the flesh and what is born of the Spirit is born of the Spirit. Dont be amazed that I told you. You MUST be born from above. The WIND blows where it wills and you can hear the sound it makes but you do not KNOW where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

He said to Nicodemus You are a teacher and YOU do not understand this???

The greek word anothen means both from above and again. Jesus means from Above but Nicodemus understands it as AGAIN.

Do you not understand what Jesus was saying to him. Let me repeat No one can enter the kingdom of heaven without being born of water AND Spirit. You MUST be born from UP ABOVE.

What is born of flesh is flesh and what is borm of spirit IS spirit.

Again do not misunderstand as he did. You are not Born Again in the flesh you are not born AGAIN in the Spirit. You cannot be born AGAIN in the Spirit anymore then in the Flesh. We are born ONCE in the Spirit and once in the flesh.

To clarify what I am saying here is this. We are born 2 ways. One is of the flesh and One is of the Spirit. That means human birth you could say or physical birth, and Spiritual birth which is our Baptism. That is why in the RCC no matter what faith you are you can only be Baptised once if you are Baptised in the name of the Trinity.

Batpism saves us from Original sin. A sin we could not be forgiven from without the death of Christ on the Cross.

That is why we always say ONE BAPTISM for the forgivenss of sins.

But now back to the point of the thread. Just wanted to clarify what this scripture was about. We are not born again, as Nick, was thinking.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

I have read your explaination loud and clear. You are saying if you have to answer your answer is No, The Pro SOn was NOT saved. He he was not saved he was not alive in the Spirit. But Jesus says.

What is born of the flesh is born of the flesh and what is born of the Spirit is born of the Spirit. Dont be amazed that I told you. You MUST be born from above. The WIND blows where it wills and you can hear the sound it makes but you do not KNOW where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

He said to Nicodemus You are a teacher and YOU do not understand this???

The greek word anothen means both from above and again. Jesus means from Above but Nicodemus understands it as AGAIN.

Do you not understand what Jesus was saying to him. Let me repeat No one can enter the kingdom of heaven without being born of water AND Spirit. You MUST be born from UP ABOVE.

What is born of flesh is flesh and what is borm of spirit IS spirit.

Again do not misunderstand as he did. You are not Born Again in the flesh you are not born AGAIN in the Spirit. You cannot be born AGAIN in the Spirit anymore then in the Flesh. We are born ONCE in the Spirit and once in the flesh.

Exactly! This is exactly what I’m saying! Jesus says you must be born “again” and he means that you must be born once in the flesh and once in the Spirit.

Now, my point is to take this same principle and parallel it to the Prod Son. The son was alive once in the flesh and alive “again” in the Spirit. Jesus uses the word “again” in reference to two types of births, similarly, it could be argued that the father of the Prod Son does the same with living.

Even if you disagree, surely you see how a parallel could be drawn? This is why I don’t see it as compelling as other scriptures against OSAS.

 

[rinnie]

Exactly! This is exactly what I’m saying! Jesus says you must be born “again” and he means that you must be born once in the flesh and once in the Spirit.

Now, my point is to take this same principle and parallel it to the Prod Son. The son was alive once in the flesh and alive “again” in the Spirit. Jesus uses the word “again” in reference to two types of births, similarly, it could be argued that the father of the Prod Son does the same with living.

Even if you disagree, surely you see how a parallel could be drawn? This is why I don’t see it as compelling as other scriptures against OSAS.

I just expained it to you in the previous post. When you sin do you become dead in your sin Yes or No?

I just told you Jesus died for ORIGINAL SIN once and for all. Its over. If we sin no matter what sin we do, do we get RE-BAPTISED? NO. Once we are born in the Spirit all Original Sin is over, its paid for.

Then come Actual SIN, the sin we have been talking about ALL ALONG. We we sin we CUT ourself OFF from God.

Come lets us celebrate with a feast, because this Son of mine was DEAD and has COME to LIFE AGAIN. he was LOST but has been FOUND.

You said the Son was never ALIVE, FOUND, because you said the Son was never saved in the first place. If he was never saved in the first place AGAIN may I ask you how can he be ALIVE AGAIN.

You are saying we must be Born AGAIN, Did you completely ignore post 123. I explained to you Jesus said you must be born from above, not again. Nick, is who took the word out of context. Jesus is who explained it. You are once again confusing Original sin in that scripture with actual sin in this scripture.

To be BORN again means to be BAPTISED in the Spirit. Are you saying that once we sin we have to be Re-Baptised in the Spirit? Jesus paid for all sin, except for sin against the Holy Spirit.

The prot. son was Dead in the Spirit because he separated his SOUL from Christ in his sin. We can DIE in our sin we are dead, when we REPENT we are not BORN AGAIN, which means to be Baptised that is a whole different meaning.

When we REPENT we are ALIVE AGAIN in the spirit. How can we be ALIVE AGAIN in the Spirit if we were never ALIVE in the first place.

What Baptism does for us is give birth to our soul not our body. But Jesus made it possible for US to become ALIVE, and he has made it possible for us to become ALIVE AGAIN when we sin by our repentance.

You are saying you do not believe in OSAS, then you are saying the Prot Son could become alive Again when according to you he was never Baptised in the first place. I am asking you to explain to me how this could be possible.

The Father did not say my son was dead but is now alive. He said my son was dead, but has come to LIFE AGAIN. How did he come to life originally then? We are ALIVE when we are baptised in the SPIRIT as Christ told Nick. But we can die in our sin, but when we do we do not have to be as I said RE-Baptised, we can’t. But we can repent and become ALIVE AGAIN in our original baptism by repentance and confession made possible by Christ.

You continue to say the prot. Son was not born in the spirit in the first place, again I ask the how has he come to life again? If you cannot see what I am asking then go to the other son is he born or the Spirit? How could he not be when the Father said my son you are with me always? That means that the other son never fell to sin, so he was never dead, he was alive in Christ for he never fell to mortal sin and separated himself from Christ.

So in order for you to make your opinion of the story fly you must show me how one Son was Baptised as you claim Born again and then other was not then. You must also show me proof that the Pro. son was never alive. Which means baptised. and then if he never was, how he was alive again. SHow me where he was baptised in the Spirit?

Even according to the Protestant faith when you are born again you confess your faith for God. I never seen him do that. He did not accept God, he already did because he KNEW he sinned against the Father and Heaven. So if you KNOW you sinned against God you had to have been born again in the faith as far as accepting God as in baptism.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

I just expained it to you in the previous post. When you sin do you become dead in your sin Yes or No?

I just told you Jesus died for ORIGINAL SIN once and for all. Its over. If we sin no matter what sin we do, do we get RE-BAPTISED? NO. Once we are born in the Spirit all Original Sin is over, its paid for.

Then come Actual SIN, the sin we have been talking about ALL ALONG. We we sin we CUT ourself OFF from God.

Come lets us celebrate with a feast, because this Son of mine was DEAD and has COME to LIFE AGAIN. he was LOST but has been FOUND.

You said the Son was never ALIVE, FOUND, because you said the Son was never saved in the first place. If he was never saved in the first place AGAIN may I ask you how can he be ALIVE AGAIN.

You are saying we must be Born AGAIN, Did you completely ignore post 123. I explained to you Jesus said you must be born from above, not again. Nick, is who took the word out of context. Jesus is who explained it. You are once again confusing Original sin in that scripture with actual sin in this scripture.

To be BORN again means to be BAPTISED in the Spirit. Are you saying that once we sin we have to be Re-Baptised in the Spirit? Jesus paid for all sin, except for sin against the Holy Spirit.

The prot. son was Dead in the Spirit because he separated his SOUL from Christ in his sin. We can DIE in our sin we are dead, when we REPENT we are not BORN AGAIN, which means to be Baptised that is a whole different meaning.

When we REPENT we are ALIVE AGAIN in the spirit. How can we be ALIVE AGAIN in the Spirit if we were never ALIVE in the first place.

What Baptism does for us is give birth to our soul not our body. But Jesus made it possible for US to become ALIVE, and he has made it possible for us to become ALIVE AGAIN when we sin by our repentance.

You are saying you do not believe in OSAS, then you are saying the Prot Son could become alive Again when according to you he was never Baptised in the first place. I am asking you to explain to me how this could be possible.

The Father did not say my son was dead but is now alive. He said my son was dead, but has come to LIFE AGAIN. How did he come to life originally then? We are ALIVE when we are baptised in the SPIRIT as Christ told Nick. But we can die in our sin, but when we do we do not have to be as I said RE-Baptised, we can’t. But we can repent and become ALIVE AGAIN in our original baptism by repentance and confession made possible by Christ.

You continue to say the prot. Son was not born in the spirit in the first place, again I ask the how has he come to life again? If you cannot see what I am asking then go to the other son is he born or the Spirit? How could he not be when the Father said my son you are with me always? That means that the other son never fell to sin, so he was never dead, he was alive in Christ for he never fell to mortal sin and separated himself from Christ.

So in order for you to make your opinion of the story fly you must show me how one Son was Baptised as you claim Born again and then other was not then. You must also show me proof that the Pro. son was never alive. Which means baptised. and then if he never was, how he was alive again. SHow me where he was baptised in the Spirit?

Even according to the Protestant faith when you are born again you confess your faith for God. I never seen him do that. He did not accept God, he already did because he KNEW he sinned against the Father and Heaven. So if you KNOW you sinned against God you had to have been born again in the faith as far as accepting God as in baptism.

I’m not sure what Baptism has to do with anything in this parable or why it should? But if you want to start mixing in Baptism into this discussion, I think I’m just going to surrender and bow out because there really is no point in continuing. I thought we were beginning to get some understanding but after reading this post… pardon the pun… “again” I can see that’s not happening.

We can still be friends, though. :hug1:

God Bless.

 

[rinnie]

I’m not sure what Baptism has to do with anything in this parable or why it should? But if you want to start mixing in Baptism into this discussion, I think I’m just going to surrender and bow out because there really is no point in continuing. I thought we were beginning to get some understanding but after reading this post… pardon the pun… “again” I can see that’s not happening.

We can still be friends, though. :hug1:

God Bless.

Of course we can

But what I am trying to get acrossed is to be Born Again in the Spirit is Baptism is it not. Why are we baptised?

If you look up Apostles Creed you will see that we believe in ONE BAPTSIM for the forgiveness of sins. That is what we call ALIVE in the Spirit being forgiven for our sins. We need Jesus to die to pay for Original sin and he did.

He paid for all sin, but Original sin is the sin or Adam and EVe. Once we were saved from that its over, ended. We can never have the stain of Original sin upon us again. Its over wiped clean. We have at our Baptism a clean slate.

Then comes Actual sin, the sin the Son commited. He fell from the Grace of God because we cannot be in a state of Grace and sin at the same time. But then he REPENTED and by his repentance he was forgiven by the Father and once AGAIN put back into a state of Grace.

Now if we are OSAS he could not fall from Grace and then return to the Grace of God once again. That is my point.

Now back to the story you need to show me that the Protocal sin was not baptised or circumcised its the same meaning in the O.T or New. Only God fulfilled the O.T and replaced Circumcism with Baptsim is all. Was the Prot.Son saved before he left the Fathers house. You said NO.

Okay I accept that, but as I stated how did he become Alive in the Spirit then without it.

The story states my son was dead but is ALIVE AGAIN. He could not be alive in the first time without being alive in the Spirit. We are not ALIVE at all before we are Alive in the Spirit we are dead in the spirit until our Baptism or Cir. in the O.T.

 

[rinnie]

I’m not sure what Baptism has to do with anything in this parable or why it should? But if you want to start mixing in Baptism into this discussion, I think I’m just going to surrender and bow out because there really is no point in continuing. I thought we were beginning to get some understanding but after reading this post… pardon the pun… “again” I can see that’s not happening.

We can still be friends, though. :hug1:

God Bless.

Or to make a long story short What is Baptism in your faith. Can you be dead and then alive again in your faith if you are not baotised?

You claim you do not agree with OSAS so you are saying you believe we can fall from grace, Agreed?

Unless of course you believe the son was dead, truly dead and thats what the story meant in a physical aspect and then became alive again. Because you can’t have it both ways. He was either alive in the Spiritual aspect as the story states and sinned and became dead in his sin, repented was forgiven and became alive again in the Spirit.

You are trying to say he was never alive in the spirit only physical and then became alive AGAIN in the spriit. How is this possible if you were never alive in the spirit in the first place. I cannot think of any other way to make this any more simple to show you what I am saying.