OSAS

[VociMike]

good question, just cause someone says the believe doesn’t make them a ‘true’ believer, they would fall under the category of apostasy.

So you think the preacher-turned-atheist is an apostate, and thus is not saved, correct? Was he ever saved? Did he ever think he was saved? Did those around him ever think he was saved? (The answer to the last two must surely be “yes!”)

If he can apostasize, can’t anybody? So how can anybody know with certainty that they won’t apostasize in the future?

 

[Tomster]

So you think the preacher-turned-atheist is an apostate, and thus is not saved, correct? Was he ever saved? Did he ever think he was saved? Did those around him ever think he was saved? (The answer to the last two must surely be “yes!”)

If he can apostasize, can’t anybody? So how can anybody know with certainty that they won’t apostasize in the future?

Give that man a cigar!

 

[Philthy]

read matthew 5:17-20

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven

Hi Jerry!

IMHO OSAS is a heresy, plain and simple. The verse you quote above is a meaningless diversion. Why dont you present your clearest articulation of why you believe Scripture unquestionably supports OSAS? And I dont mean little tidbits here and there - put together your thoughts and we can discuss it furrther. Now it may very well be that you are not truly prepared to defend your position or you havent really been tested by someone with a little knowledge of Scripture who has also wrestled with this topic, but that will be made readily apparent in short order. Give it your best shot! One of us will learn something if we are humble.
The way I see it, the NT is FULL of warnings to CHRISTIANS to repent, avoid the lure of the world, avoid sin, etc etc etc. IMHO one must FIRST believe in OSAS to be able to miss how many times it is refuted. Even in the book of Romans its clear that Paul warns against “overconfidence”.

 

[elvisman]

good question, just cause someone says the believe doesn’t make them a ‘true’ believer, they would fall under the category of apostasy.

One must be a true believer in order for him to apostacize.
You can’t renounce what you didn’t believe in the first place.

Apostasy:
1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION

 

[Jerry_Marino]

I’ve read many of your posts and have one question for you:
How is it "hard to get to heaven"?

---

no one can live up to God’s standards therefore we are in need of a Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

So you think the preacher-turned-atheist is an apostate, and thus is not saved, correct? Was he ever saved? Did he ever think he was saved? Did those around him ever think he was saved? (The answer to the last two must surely be “yes!”)

If he can apostasize, can’t anybody? So how can anybody know with certainty that they won’t apostasize in the future?

doesn’t matter what one thinks that is why we are just to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless, of course, you fail the test. 6 I hope you will discover that we have not failed. 7 But we pray to God that you may not do evil, not that we may appear to have passed the test but that you may do what is right, even though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9 For we rejoice when we are weak but you are strong. What we pray for is your improvement.

• Paul turns the challenge mentioned in 2 Cor 13:3 on them: they are to put themselves to the test to demonstrate whether Christ is in them. These verses involve a complicated series of plays on the theme of dokime (testing, proof, passing and failing a test). Behind this stands the familiar distinction between present human judgment and final divine judgment. This is the final appearance of the theme (cf 2 Cor 10:18; 11:15; 12:19).*

paul seems to me with the statement in v5 that he had a sense of humor.

God bless

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Hi Jerry!

IMHO OSAS is a heresy, plain and simple. The verse you quote above is a meaningless diversion. Why dont you present your clearest articulation of why you believe Scripture unquestionably supports OSAS? And I dont mean little tidbits here and there - put together your thoughts and we can discuss it furrther. Now it may very well be that you are not truly prepared to defend your position or you havent really been tested by someone with a little knowledge of Scripture who has also wrestled with this topic, but that will be made readily apparent in short order. Give it your best shot! One of us will learn something if we are humble.
The way I see it, the NT is FULL of warnings to CHRISTIANS to repent, avoid the lure of the world, avoid sin, etc etc etc. IMHO one must FIRST believe in OSAS to be able to miss how many times it is refuted. Even in the book of Romans its clear that Paul warns against “overconfidence”.

hello, you say it is heresy but the scripture i quote speaks of assurance this is not me speaking but God. i’ve stated my position but here goes again just for you.

you see i was lost but now i am found by God, He called out to me and i heard the gospel, the good news for faith comes by hearing. so i believe that Jesus died for my sins now i’ve repented from my sins a trust God to finish what He started in me at the beginning i struggled with sin and the more i struggled, i prayed and dug into the Word working out my salvation being sanctified by the Word of God. am i without sin? no. will i ever be without sin? no.

it is not i that can save myself but it is God who works in me molding me to the likeness of Christ as i surrender my will to His. what is the will of God? to live Holy lives. is this to say that i am Holy? no. as long as i am in the flesh i am subject to sin that is why i walk in the Spirit offering my body as living sacrifice to the Lord.

nothing can separate us (Christians) from God’s love:

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us. 34 Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. 35
What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The all-conquering power of God’s love has overcome every obstacle to Christians’ salvation and every threat to separate them from God. That power manifested itself fully when God’s own Son was delivered up to death for their salvation. Through him Christians can overcome all their afflictions and trials.

God bless

 

[Our_Refuge]

read matthew 5:17-20

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven

Jerry, I asked you a simple question and you did not answer it. I have asked this question of others that believe in OSAS and they also refused to dierctly answer it. So let me ask you again. You believe in absolute assurance of salvation once you have accepted Christ as your personal savior. So Jerry, if you do not keep the commandments will you still be saved.? Please just answer yes or no.

 

[elvisman]

no one can live up to God’s standards therefore we are in need of a Savior, Jesus Christ.

**According to many of your posts on these forums, being saved by simply believing in Jesus is easy. **Now, you’re saying it’s difficult.
The truth is - it’s impossible without Jesus.

Your are right about it being difficult. In the context of the New Testament, Jesus never said it would be easy. As a matter of fact, he said it would be difficult. He said that only those who endure to the end will be saved - not that they already are saved. This is why OSAS is a farce concocted up by flawed men and not by the Holy Spirit.

 

[VociMike]

doesn’t matter what one thinks that is why we are just to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

And after such examination we either think we are living in faith or we think we are not. So it does matter what one thinks.

The point is, this preacher-turned-atheist, or any other person, may examine themselves and think that they are living in faith. And then a week or a month or a year later they may be writing militant atheist books against religion. This can and does happen, so your theology must be able to deal with it. So either they were deceived when they examined themselves, or else they had faith but ended up losing/rejecting it.

Which do you think it is? And whichever one it is, it trashes OSAS. Either the OS part can never be known, or the AS part is false.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Jerry!

hello, you say it is heresy but the scripture i quote speaks of assurance

 

[CentralFLJames]

The reason why “just believe” is utterly false is because even the demons of hell “just believe” - they believe that God is God and Jesus is Son of God but they don’t love Him !

**Change your sola to “sola amor” and you have the sum total of the Christian response to God in one single salvation formula. Love conquers all and always finds its mate. **

Love accepts ever-calling grace and love ever-responds to grace. Love desires to do works of love. Love desires to make reparations for harm. Love compels its own perfection to repent and be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. Love is kind and merciful. Love is not boastful except in its silent boast of its love by private deeds. Love forgives faults. Love loves its fellow creatures. Love is selfless and giving. Love suffers to please. Love is a relationship that transcends its opposites selfishness, contempt, pride, envy and even death. Love never gives up and so love never dies.

Pray for the gift of love and you get it all - but never without suffrage. The more we love the more we suffer; the more we gain grace.

James

 

[fhansen]

Change your sola to “sola amor” and you have the sum total of the Christian response to God in one single salvation formula. Love conquers all and always finds its mate.

Amen

 

[Maranatha33]

This is it? An isolated set of verses from Romans that discusses God’s love? This is the basis for your belief in OSAS? I find that odd - it doesnt even mention salvation at all.

Hebrews 7:20-28

20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he
became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest (singular) forever.’ " 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the **guarantee of a better covenant. 23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives
forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from
sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as a high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 9:24-28

24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25**Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

In Christ Jesus,

M33

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry, I asked you a simple question and you did not answer it. I have asked this question of others that believe in OSAS and they also refused to dierctly answer it. So let me ask you again. You believe in absolute assurance of salvation once you have accepted Christ as your personal savior. So Jerry, if you do not keep the commandments will you still be saved.? Please just answer yes or no.

1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. 2
He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world. 3
The way we may be sure 2 that we know him is to keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: 6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.

*Children: like the term “beloved,” this is an expression of pastoral love (cf John 13:33; 21:5; 1 Cor 4:14). Advocate: for the use of the term, see John 14:16. Forgiveness of sin is assured through Christ’s intercession and expiation or “offering”; the death of Christ effected the removal of sin.

The way we may be sure: to those who claim, “I have known Christ and therefore I know him,” our author insists on not mere intellectual knowledge but obedience to God’s commandments in a life conformed to the example of Christ; this confirms our knowledge of him and is the love of God . . . perfected. Disparity between moral life and the commandments proves improper belief.*

refuge, a repented Christian will keep the commandments but like john writes if we do fall we have an advocate. there has got to be a change in a person who has come to know the Lord as their savior but your question is misleading cause of the way you pose it.

let me tell you what happen today, if i may. it has to do with anger, and what did Jesus say about anger.

21 "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

today i got angry at work, now am i going to hell? no.

did i learn from this? yes.

did i confess it to God? yes.

everyday one breaks a commandment, that is why we should be grateful for what God has done for us, PRAISE JESUS!

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Hi Jerry!
Jerry Marino;5050557:

Assurance of Salvation and OSAS are related but separate.

Definitions of ‘assurance’ (ə-shŏŏŕəns)
Dictionary.com · The American Heritage® Dictionary - (6 definitions)
(noun)

The act of assuring. A statement or indication that inspires confidence; a guarantee or pledge: gave her assurance that the plan would succeed. Freedom from doubt; certainty: set sail in the assurance of favorable winds.

Synonyms
covenant
engagement
guarantee
guaranty
pledge
plight
promise
solemn word
vow
warrant
word
word of honor
assuredness
certainty
certitude
confidence
conviction
positiveness
sureness
surety
safeness
safety
security
aplomb

 

[CentralFLJames]

today i got angry at work, now am i going to hell? no.

did i learn from this? yes.

did i confess it to God? yes.

everyday one breaks a commandment, that is why we should be grateful for what God has done for us, PRAISE JESUS!

Jerry minor anger is a human emotion that in and of itself is not a sin - our Lord got angry - there us such a thing as just anger. It is how we deal with anger that can be sinful. More than likely your anger is venial sin if it was sinful unless you slandered somone and harmed or abused somone in your anger.

You were right to confess this and you were forgiven of it as well.

ALL VENIAL SINS CAN BE CONFESSED AND FORGIVEN THROUGH SIMPLE PRAYER IF ONE SINCERELY IS SORRY.

Sacramental confession is not absolutely necessary for venial sins.

James

 

[Our_Refuge]

=Jerry Marino;5055720]**
[refuge, **a repented Christian **will keep the commandments but like john writes if we do fall we have an advocate. there has got to be a change in a person who has come to know the Lord as their savior

But Jerry, you said you believe in Once saved always saved. Repentance is a work. If you sin and do not’ confess and repent then you will not be saved. Agree?

but your question is misleading cause of the way you pose it.

How is it misleading?. You say that once you accept Christ you are assured salvation. Nothing can take it away becasue you have been saved. Your sins past prestent and future have been covered by the blood of Christ. This is the premise of OSAS. Let me ask you this so that I may be perfectly clear on your belief… . If you accept Christ as your personal savior and then you commit adultery ten times a day will you still be saved without a sincere confession and the desire to sin no more? There is no need to add details to your answer. Just a simple yes or no. Thanks and God bless.

 

[elvisman]

Hebrews 7:20-28

20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he
became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest (singular) forever.’ " 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the **guarantee of a better covenant. 23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives
forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from
sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins *once for all ***when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as a high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 9:24-28

24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared **once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

In Christ Jesus,

M33

This is precisely what the Catholic Church has always taught.
What’s your point?

 

[Philthy]

Hi M33!

Hebrews 7:20-28, Hebrews 9:24-28

28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
In Christ Jesus,
M33

I’m trying to understand this concluding verse and how it relates to the concept of OSAS. You chose not to comment, so I can’t know your thoughts, but you must believe it somehow supports OSAS. I see exactly the opposite: it says that salvation will be brought to those who are waiting for him.

The first contradiction with OSAS is that salvation is spoken of as a FUTURE EVENT rather than a past event. OSAS holds to salvation as instantaneous, permanent and complete at the time one comes to faith in Christ. The author here is speaking of salvation as a future event.

The second contradiction with OSAS is that “waiting for him” is a part of “persevering to the end” in faith. Do you accept that only those who persevere to the end in waiting for Christ will be saved? Again, the OSAS crowd would maintain that persevering in faith is not a requirement, nor is waiting for him - they would claim that once you accepted Christ and were born again that your salvation is assured even if they didnt wait or persevere. What say you?