OSAS

[po18guy]

I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

OK, so we can all relax and start believing less?

 

[po18guy]

i will address all of what you quote but what you seem to be afraid to answer is if you are without sin or that you will be perfect like God.

i know that i am a sinner, i know that i am capable of sinning again.

what about you?

Jerry, how about this: You tell us the five most important things that you know about Catholic belief. Based on your answers, we can then see where you are coming from. An awful lot of your posts are already Catholic beliefs, but you are skipping over a LOT of scripture to get to where you are.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

first of all, i try not to get into a personal debate with anyone, i understand that we differ in our belief. some think that i come to attack the catholics but as some of you know that is not what i do here, i only come to here to understand you and hopefully you will walk away with a better understanding of me.

my stance on this issue of always saved isn’t of man’s doing but of God which you have failed to read into my posts of different post and comments. God is the one who saves is not of our doing which i think you all understand this but for some reason most believe that one can work in keeping their salvation but the main question i ask is: if you did nothing to earn your salvation, what can you do to keep it?

i will address all the comments you all put in rebuttal to my stance on salvation. first i would like for you all to chew on this chapter for a while and God willing i’ll start to answer your questions.

**1 Corinthians 5:1 It is widely reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of a kind not found even among pagans–a man living with his father’s wife. 2
And you are inflated with pride. Should you not rather have been sorrowful? The one who did this deed should be expelled from your midst. 3 I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed, 4 in the name of (our) Lord Jesus: when you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not appropriate. Do you not know that a little yeast leavens all the dough? 7 Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. 8
Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, 10 not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. 11 But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. 12 For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? 13 God will judge those outside. “Purge the evil person from your midst.”**

*[5:1-6:20] Paul now takes up a number of other matters that require regulation. These have come to his attention by hearsay (1 Cor 5:1), probably in reports brought by “Chloe’s people” (1 Cor 1:11).

[1-13] Paul first deals with the incestuous union of a man with his stepmother (1 Cor 5:1-8) and then attempts to clarify general admonitions he has given about associating with fellow Christians guilty of immorality (1 Cor 5:9-13). Each of these three brief paragraphs expresses the same idea: the need of separation between the holy and the unholy.

[2] Inflated with pride: this remark and the reference to boasting in 1 Cor 5:6 suggest that they are proud of themselves despite the infection in their midst, tolerating and possibly even approving the situation. The attitude expressed in 1 Cor 6:2, 13 may be influencing their thinking in this case.

[5] Deliver this man to Satan: once the sinner is expelled from the church, the sphere of Jesus’ lordship and victory over sin, he will be in the region outside over which Satan is still master. For the destruction of his flesh: the purpose of the penalty is medicinal: through affliction, sin’s grip over him may be destroyed and the path to repentance and reunion laid open. With Paul’s instructions for an excommunication ceremony here, contrast his recommendations for the reconciliation of a sinner in 2 Cor 2:5-11.

[6] A little yeast: yeast, which induces fermentation, is a natural symbol for a source of corruption that becomes all-pervasive. The expression is proverbial.

[7-8] In the Jewish calendar, Passover was followed immediately by the festival of Unleavened Bread. In preparation for this feast all traces of old bread were removed from the house, and during the festival only unleavened bread was eaten. The sequence of these two feasts provides Paul with an image of Christian existence: Christ’s death (the true Passover celebration) is followed by the life of the Christian community, marked by newness, purity, and integrity (a perpetual feast of unleavened bread). Paul may have been writing around Passover time (cf 1 Cor 16:5); this is a little Easter homily, the earliest in Christian literature.

[9-13] Paul here corrects a misunderstanding of his earlier directives against associating with immoral fellow Christians. He concedes the impossibility of avoiding contact with sinners in society at large but urges the Corinthians to maintain the inner purity of their own community.*

 

[CentralFLJames]

first of all, i try not to get into a personal debate with anyone, i understand that we differ in our belief. some think that i come to attack the catholics but as some of you know that is not what i do here, i only come to here to understand you and hopefully you will walk away with a better understanding of me.

Jerry you need to be honest with yourself. You didn’t come here to understand us - you came here to either reinforce your own beliefs or to persuade us to yours. It serves no one if we understand you better. What matters is if you come into the truth - that is the objective of why GOD has you here.

my stance on this issue of always saved isn’t of man’s doing but of God which you have failed to read into my posts of different post and comments. God is the one who saves is not of our doing which i think you all understand this but for some reason most believe that one can work in keeping their salvation but the main question i ask is: if you did nothing to earn your salvation, what can you do to keep it?

Jerry, in your words here you are showing that you are operating under wrong assumptions about Catholic belief which are really prejudices against us that someone taught you. You are inferring in your comments that Catholics think we can earn our way into heaven. This is just old once warmed over Protestant “conditioning” and polemics that somone pumped into you long ago. Yeah, we all know God is the mighty one and we all love God and we can’t do anything without His help but it is just silly to try to prove your love of God by projecting a strawman view of Catholic belief and then set off to defend God’s honor as if He needs anyone to defend His majesty?

Get over the “hang up” with works for Pete’s sakes. Works are part of life as much as any actionable love is a verb and is a work. If somone loves God they MUST express that love through actions. Even speaking of love of God is a work - works are unavoidable to somone in love with God and in a state of grace.“Keeping one’s salvation” is most definately for us to do or loose. God of course helps us but it is entirely OUR choice if we want to remain in a relationship or not. We must remain loyal and have fidelity - if we break loyalty and fornicate with evil and turn our back on God then we are toast. It’s that simple Jerry. God does not keep us on a “salvation leash” like a pet dog. We are free to go anytime just as we are free to repent and come to God anytime.

If you did nothing to earn your salvation, what can you do to keep it?

What can we do? We can remain faithful and keep ourselves out of the occasion for temptation and pray and praise God and do all we can to discern and do His will. We are progressively given more grace as we learn to cooperate with our own salvation – which is a love relationship. How do you keep a girlfriend or a spouse Jerry? Well I can tell you what you don’t do. You don’t run around and have illicit relationships with other women. You don’t spit in her face or disregard her desires. You don’t scream at her and YOU DON"T TAKE HER FOR GRANTED. If you take God for granted you presume upon God and are abusing the relationship Jerry.

OSAS was invented by lazy men who wanted the rewards of Christianity but who could not control their own sinful passions and did not want to take personal responsibility for their own actions. They wanted an easy Christianity and an easy believism that was a guarantee of salvation - a salvation that could be purchased and put on the shelf so they could go on with the regular secular life and not fret over the afterlife. OSAS is one of the gravest errors EVER to be put forth as Christian teaching. There are literally hundreds of scriptures that refute OSAS. It’s an evil doctrine that puts people into false complacency and divorces oneself from personal responsibility.

GET OUT OF OSAS Jerry! It is against all common sense. It was never taught by the apostles and its not supportable by scripture. It leads directly to hell. You can find a few verses that seem like it supports it but literally hundreds of other verses refute it.

James

 

[Philthy]

who on here is without sin?

truthfully answer the question, do you honestly think that one can live on this earth perfect as Christ lived on this earth?

**Which sin - exactly - do you believe we are incapable of resisting when aided by God’s grace? **
Did God inspire Paul to lie when he said: “No trial has come to you except what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength, but with the trial He will provide a way out…” For we have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer us who lives, but Christ who lives in us (cf Gal 2:19-20).
Believe me - I understand where you are coming from, but we need to be careful not to blame our sin on anyone but ourselves. Failing to do so means we can not truly be sorry for having committed them. It’s not because God hasnt provided us with sufficient grace to overcome our sinful habits - its simply because we have chosen sin over God. Fortunately God has provided a means for reconciling us through his Son - but this requires us to truly “confess” these sins - to agree that we have truly sinned by our own free choice. Anything less is to say that Christ’s sacrifice was not enough and that not all things are possible with God.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Jerry -

I’m glad to see you back!
Any chance you’ll actually address this post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5071692&postcount=78

Its post #78 from page 6…

Blessings

 

[Philthy]

I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

Notice, Jerry, that this verse says that those who “believe”. It does not say those who “have believed” or “once believed” or “used to believe” or anything like that. It is a present tense (ie now) affirmation that if you believe now you have eternal life now. It really only addresses the present, not the future. We must “believe” throughout our lives and most especially at the moment of death.

 

[po18guy]

the main question i ask is: if you did nothing to earn your salvation, what can you do to keep it?

**John 15:10 **“If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”

When looking at scripture, concentrate on the verbs. They tell you what you must do to remain in the love of Christ. “obey” (my commands), “deliver” (the flesh to save the spirit), “love” (one another as I have loved you), “persevere” (to the end will be saved), “work out” (your salvation with fear and trembling) “make” (disciples of all nations). THAT’s what we have to do. Nothing merits salvation - it is God;s gift. However, we must do something to merit the keeping of it. I don’t think you see this.

Look at Revelation 20:12-13. We will be judged according to what we have DONE, not what we have believed. Love, which IS God, requires action, work if you will, on our parts. Will you enter the Kingdom if you keep Christ’s love to yourself? That’s a risky path.

And, as to your bible footnotes, as a Catholic, I generally distrust them., as they are editorial comments made by man - and are not inspired. They can and sometimes do lead one astray from the truth.

Since the bible is a Catholic book, do you not think we have read the very same passages you quote? Just wondering at this point…

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Notice, Jerry, that this verse says that those who “believe”. It does not say those who “have believed” or “once believed” or “used to believe” or anything like that. It is a present tense (ie now) affirmation that if you believe now you have eternal life now. It really only addresses the present, not the future. We must “believe” throughout our lives and most especially at the moment of death.

finally someone who gets it, wtg, great comment you “philthy” rascal

that is the key if you believe not have believed or once believed or used to believe, only those who truly believe the Gospel, Amen.

now i will get to answering all of your questions about sin and the commandments to which you all have posted on here.

God calls people to salvation and upon answering the call with an affirmative, resounding YES, we are saved, justified by faith.

please excuse me while i travel back in time to answer some very good questions that have been posted.

God bless you all.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

The reason it’s so hard for a rich man to enter heaven is because he’s attached to his wealth and material things-over and above God. We must make a choice for God at some point and He, being the Potter and all, can help arrange this so that even rich people can lose their sense of self-dependency and become humble enough to make this decision. It can have to do with becoming poor enough in spirit, as Jesus referred to in the Beatitudes, due to the circumstances life throws at us in combination with our own nature/character and ultimately the grace of the Almighty who can perfect us and make us worthy-according to His standard-prior to entrance into eternal life. This perfection is nothing other than to be totally sold out to Gods will, loving Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength-IOW to fulfill the commandment to love. This is a process of conversion during which we can have a confidence that God is working in us to the end of our salvation but not 100% certainty.

oh my brother hansen, why can’t it be 100% certainty?

surely it is not cause God can’t finish what He started in us?

i agree with what you have stated with the changing of one of your lines in the above quote in which you state, ‘it can have to do with becoming poor in spirit.’ i say, ‘it has to do with becoming poor in spirt,’ because with a proud spirit there would be no repentance of sin.

paul writes in chapter 7 of romans of the struggle with sin and the law. who is writing to? non-believers? no, he is writing to Christians who have come back to live by the law instead of by faith.

my friends, there is certainty of salvation not in what you can do but what God can do for you if you just submit to His perfect will. i do not come to here to try to entice you in leaving the catholic church like some have proclaimed, but to point you to Jesus Christ.

do you not agree of the statements in italics that i have posted as commentary, such as:

[5] Deliver this man to Satan: once the sinner is expelled from the church, the sphere of Jesus’ lordship and victory over sin, he will be in the region outside over which Satan is still master. For the destruction of his flesh: the purpose of the penalty is medicinal: through affliction, sin’s grip over him may be destroyed and the path to repentance and reunion laid open. With Paul’s instructions for an excommunication ceremony here, contrast his recommendations for the reconciliation of a sinner in 2 Cor 2:5-11.

this is in reference of 1 corinthians 5 which talks of a ‘Brother’ who has sinned, paul clearly states what do with him. no where in the passage does it say he will perish but on the contrary that ‘his spirit may be saved.’

100% certainty my friends that what is impossible for man is possible with God!

God bless you

 

[JRKH]

oh my brother hansen, why can’t it be 100% certainty?

surely it is not cause God can’t finish what He started in us?

i agree with what you have stated with the changing of one of your lines in the above quote in which you state, ‘it can have to do with becoming poor in spirit.’ i say, ‘it has to do with becoming poor in spirt,’ because with a proud spirit there would be no repentance of sin.

paul writes in chapter 7 of romans of the struggle with sin and the law. who is writing to? non-believers? no, he is writing to Christians who have come back to live by the law instead of by faith.

my friends, there is certainty of salvation not in what you can do but what God can do for you if you just submit to His perfect will. i do not come to here to try to entice you in leaving the catholic church like some have proclaimed, but to point you to Jesus Christ.

Why do you say this if it is not necause you believe that we are not pointed toward Jesus Christ?

do you not agree of the statements in italics that i have posted as commentary, such as:

[5] Deliver this man to Satan: once the sinner is expelled from the church, the sphere of Jesus’ lordship and victory over sin, he will be in the region outside over which Satan is still master. For the destruction of his flesh: the purpose of the penalty is medicinal: through affliction, sin’s grip over him may be destroyed and the path to repentance and reunion laid open. With Paul’s instructions for an excommunication ceremony here, contrast his recommendations for the reconciliation of a sinner in 2 Cor 2:5-11.

this is in reference of 1 corinthians 5 which talks of a ‘Brother’ who has sinned, paul clearly states what do with him. no where in the passage does it say he will perish but on the contrary that ‘his spirit may be saved.’

100% certainty my friends that what is impossible for man is possible with God!

God bless you

Who is Paul expelling fromthe Church if he is not expelling someone who was already IN the Church. You cannot expell what was never there.

Let me ask a simple question.
Do you believe that a person can profess Jesus with his mouth, be baptized and then later, by renouncing Jesus and falling back into sin demonstrate that he was never truly saved?

Peace
James

 

[fhansen]

oh my brother hansen, why can’t it be 100% certainty?

surely it is not cause God can’t finish what He started in us?

i agree with what you have stated with the changing of one of your lines in the above quote in which you state, ‘it can have to do with becoming poor in spirit.’ i say, ‘it has to do with becoming poor in spirt,’ because with a proud spirit there would be no repentance of sin.

paul writes in chapter 7 of romans of the struggle with sin and the law. who is writing to? non-believers? no, he is writing to Christians who have come back to live by the law instead of by faith.

my friends, there is certainty of salvation not in what you can do but what God can do for you if you just submit to His perfect will. i do not come to here to try to entice you in leaving the catholic church like some have proclaimed, but to point you to Jesus Christ.

do you not agree of the statements in italics that i have posted as commentary, such as:

[5] Deliver this man to Satan: once the sinner is expelled from the church, the sphere of Jesus’ lordship and victory over sin, he will be in the region outside over which Satan is still master. For the destruction of his flesh: the purpose of the penalty is medicinal: through affliction, sin’s grip over him may be destroyed and the path to repentance and reunion laid open. With Paul’s instructions for an excommunication ceremony here, contrast his recommendations for the reconciliation of a sinner in 2 Cor 2:5-11.

this is in reference of 1 corinthians 5 which talks of a ‘Brother’ who has sinned, paul clearly states what do with him. no where in the passage does it say he will perish but on the contrary that ‘his spirit may be saved.’

100% certainty my friends that what is impossible for man is possible with God!

God bless you

**Jerry, in Catholic teaching the wild card isn’t the grace of God-it’s us. While we can trust completely in Him, we can’t depend 100% on ourselves. The doctrines that include mans’ will as being a part of the process of his salvation are critical because God’s in the business of changing us, without coercion-but truly changing us. Any doctrine of imputed righteousness is potentially dangerous because it allows an escape clause from the necessity-rather than the option- of keeping oil for ones lamp. In practice, however, I think many Protestants do maintain a vigilance; alert and concerned about their own disposition towards God and His will for them-because we intuit that what we do counts. If God isn’t after true change in us-and that change being a necessary part of being able to “see” Him in Heaven-then there was no reason to even allow man to fall or to allow man to be exiled from Him in this world. The purpose of this life is to effect a change in man-to create a being finally one in will with His will-not merely to redeem him. And so in Catholic teaching this is the process of conversion whereby man is perfected in his will and his love.

**

 

[JRKH]

A quick glance through the thread did not turn up this quote from Jesus in John and it would be interesting to hear how an OSAS believer handles this one.

John 17:12-16
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Jesus is speaking here of the Apostles. Men who have been with Him, as His inner circle from the Early days. These are the ones that Jesus says the Father Gave Him. Since the Father “gave” them to Jesus, and they are His, and none are lost except…, why would Jesus have to ask the Father to keep them from the Evil One if OSAS were true?

Peace
James

 

[The_Question]

Notice, Jerry, that this verse says that those who “believe”. It does not say those who “have believed” or “once believed” or “used to believe” or anything like that. It is a present tense (ie now) affirmation that if you believe now you have eternal life now. It really only addresses the present, not the future. We must “believe” throughout our lives and most especially at the moment of death.

Guys, have you ever wondered that the problem might not be in understanding “always saved”, but rather in understanding “once saved”? Do you even like the phrase “once saved”? Even though Paul and Peter talk a lot about the past tense finished event, do you really like such a notion?

Could your issue be more with understanding that the ‘believing’ you talk about holding onto til death was a gift from God all along (see Eph 2:8,9)?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Phil. 2
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

paul writes this letter to the church he started in philippi. even though he is in prison, he feels happy when he thinks of what Christ means to him, and of what the philippians are doing for him. he gives some very practical advice on how to live the Christian life.

chapter 2 of this letter starts out in the first 11 verses telling us to imitate Christ’s humility in service towards others.

now to the verses you quote my sister, in verse 12 first i’d like to note that he says to ‘continue to work out your salvation,’ not to work for your salvation. this does not imply that you will lose your salvation or keep it? salvation is yours already by God’s grace now you can either stay as a babe and drink milk or grow in Christ and eat the meat of the gospel.

growing in Christ to means applying God’s word in your everyday life, not just on sundays or when other Christians are around we are to let our light shine. he says to obey in line as to what james writes in ‘being doers of the word’ and again i stress that this does not imply that you are working ‘for’ your salvation, simply like paul writes: work out your salvation.

our goal is to be Christlike in all aspects of our lives for we have died and live for Christ.

in verse 13 paul clearly states who is doing the work within each believer, God. in ephesians 5:18 he says do not be ‘drunk with wine which leads to debauchery instead be controlled by the Holy Spirit.’

upon the moment you believe in Jesus Christ, you are saved and the Holy Spirit indwells you molding you to the person God wants you to be.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, 14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

*[13] Sealed: by God, in baptism; cf Eph 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22.

8 [14] First installment: down payment by God on full salvation, as at 2 Cor 1:22.*

i like 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 oh what a promise, what a gracious God we serve!

21 It is God who gives us, with you, a sure place in Christ
22 and has both anointed us and marked us with his seal, giving us as pledge the Spirit in our hearts.

i love you guys

God bless you

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Assurance of salvation is nothing but the sin of presumption and is contrary to the virtue of hope.

The Spirit is the first installment or “down payment” of the full messianic benefits that God guarantees to Christians.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Guys, have you ever wondered that the problem might not be in understanding “always saved”, but rather in understanding “once saved”? Do you even like the phrase “once saved”? Even though Paul and Peter talk a lot about the past tense finished event, do you really like such a notion?

Could your issue be more with understanding that the ‘believing’ you talk about holding onto til death was a gift from God all along (see Eph 2:8,9)?

Could your issue be more with understanding that the ‘believing’ you talk about holding onto til death was a gift from God all along (see Eph 2:8,9)?

No, not in the sense of irresistible grace. God does not “possess and take over” a person’s soul to make them zombie robots. God’s grace is an essence of love and is not of a forceful nature. It’s invitational and protective but not smothering and can be rejected at any time. Will God come back and keep calling us if we do reject Him? YES - but God WILL NOT force Himself on us. As one walks with God after baptism and progresses in faith and sanctification one comes into a progressively greater relationship with Him that makes it progressively more difficult for a person to sin and to even entertain the idea of leaving – yet God will not let us get stuck in a complacency and WILL test us and wake us up even late in life.

The entire Protestant idea of “once saved” is just so inane and perverse. If anyone is objectively honest they can see that all this sort of thinking does is to remove one’s personal responsibility away from cooperating with God’s grace to make it God’s job to “get us to heaven”. It’s a cop out and a one-sided relationship where we just go on living and assume and presume that God will do whatever it takes to “keep us saved”. This is a TERRIBLE error and invites one to presume upon God’s mercy and love and to be careless with their relationship with God. It is all an error that stems from a highly defective justification/sanctification model where our sins are “covered over” with grace rather than the proper infused grace view that utterly obliterates sin and makes us literally pure and Christ like at our core. The imputed or covered in blood idea whitewashes a rotted and perverse inner core with a veneer that to common sense is just not authentic. One MUST “be holy as our heavenly father is holy”. Holiness is what Protestants have shunned and OSAS plays right into the idea that its impossible for a person to be holy or to even bother trying to be since God has us “covered” so to speak.

Personally, I don’t believe any Protestants truly believe in OSAS and just recite the doctrine out of duty to reformation theology. It’s utterly devoid of reason and has no scriptural basis and more importantly NO apostle ever taught it. Just because somone found a few scripture verses 500 years ago that seem like OSAS “sort of” works does not make it a valid teaching. Again, it was NEVER EVER taught by The Apostles or The Church and is a neo-Christian secular teaching never before seen until the various fragmented Protestant theologies invented it out of thin air.

James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Catholics agree that our salvation is a free gift from God. But we can lose that free gift if we refuse to cooperate with God given grace.
Jerry, if you do not keep the commandments, will you still be saved.? Yes or no.

depends which commandments you speak of my friend, Jesus spoke of the commandments in matthew 5:17-20. verse 20 in particular is quite interesting pertaining to the law. “I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” the scribes and pharisees were the interpreters of Scripture, the so called experts of God’s law. they knew especially the scribes who would copy the wording onto other scrolls to keep it in tact. these guys would put heavy yokes on the people as to how they saw the law to be or how one should live. a good example of this would be on divorce where there were two different sects but that in all is another issue which is not pertaining of this thread. anyway, the key to this verse is that if we live by the law we must follow it to the tee. or we ‘will not enter the kingdom of heaven.’ remember the rich man.

read romans 8 - *[1-13] After his warning in Romans 7 against the wrong route to fulfillment of the objective of holiness expressed in Romans 6:22, Paul points his addressees to the correct way. Through the redemptive work of Christ, Christians have been liberated from the terrible forces of sin and death. Holiness was impossible so long as the flesh (or our “old self”), that is, self-interested hostility toward God (Romans 8:7), frustrated the divine objectives expressed in the law. What is worse, sin used the law to break forth into all manner of lawlessness (Romans 8:8). All this is now changed. At the cross God broke the power of sin and pronounced sentence on it (Romans 8:3). Christians still retain the flesh, but it is alien to their new being, which is life in the spirit, namely the new self, governed by the holy Spirit. Under the direction of the holy Spirit Christians are able to fulfill the divine will that formerly found expression in the law (Romans 8:4). The same Spirit who enlivens Christians for holiness will also resurrect their bodies at the last day (Romans 8:11). Christian life is therefore the experience of a constant challenge to put to death the evil deeds of the body through life of the spirit (Romans 8:13).

[14-17] Christians, by reason of the Spirit’s presence within them, enjoy not only new life but also a new relationship to God, that of adopted children and heirs through Christ, whose sufferings and glory they share.*

so if one comes in true repentance (turning from sin towards God) putting their trust in the work of Christ on the Cross believing with all their heart, soul and mind; they are saved. one can’t work for it by keeping the commandments.

here are the commandments that we should keep:
**1 John 3:19 (Now) this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him 20 in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything. 21 Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God 22 and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. 24 Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us.
**

*[19-24] Living a life of faith in Jesus and of Christian love assures us of abiding in God no matter what our feelings may at times tell us. Our obedience gives us confidence in prayer and trust in God’s judgment. This obedience includes our belief in Christ and love for one another.

[19b-20] This difficult passage may also be translated “we shall be at peace before him in whatever our hearts condemn, for . . .” or “and before God we shall convince our hearts, if our hearts condemn us, that God is greater than our hearts.”*

what pleases God? faith, without it you can not please God.

God bless.

 

[JRKH]

Jerry,
I am sure you are going to be able to comeup with answers to every verse and argument that Catholics present to you on the OSAS issue.
Not that your conclusions are true necessarily but at least you have given the matter some thought.

This thread has accumulated 118 posts so far, not including this one and is no closer to resolution. You are completely convinced of the correctness of your position and We are just as convinced of the correctness of our position. In fact I believe that we can agree that the “other side” is sinning by holding to and teaching a false doctrine.
Such False teaching cannot be allowed to stand since it effects the potential salvation of millions AND causes division within the Body of Christ which wounds Jesus, since He prayed fervently for us to be of one mind. (John 17:20-23) This is why so many here have opposed you in your position. They have concern for you soul and any who might be taken in by this error.

So, what are we to do??
Has Scripture Left us without recourse when two groups of sincere Christians disagree??

The answer is no - Our Dear Lord foresaw such circumstances and has provided for them in the NT.

In the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 18 verses 15-18, Jesus instructs the faithful in how to handle such disputes as we are having and thus maintain the unity of the Church in “being of one Mind”. Since we, as individuals, cannot resolve the issue ourselves, Jesus instructs us to “Tell it to the Church”. Then once the Church has spoken on the subject we are to accept the decision of the Church as from Christ or be seperated from the Body of Christ.

So, since we seem to be at an impasse, it may be necessary to move the discussion to a “Higher Level”. I suggest that we need to - “Tell it to the Church”.

But wait - Here again we have a problem - For you define “Church” differently than we do.
So again, what are we to do??
Has Scripture left us without an answer??

Again the Answer is no. Scripture provides a clear demonstration of how this Authority was understood by the earliest Church. The example exists in the Book of Acts, Chapter 15 verses 1-29.
In this passage we are told that a group of Jewish converts in Antioch were stirring up problems in the community regarding the necessity of the mosaic law in the Christian community. Even St Paul, that great Apostle and former pharasee, personally chosen by Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit, could not resolve the issue.
What was their solution?
The matter was refered to “The Church” in Jerusalem, where James, Peter, and other Elders of the Church met to discuss the matter. Even then there was much debate and argument among the faithful until Peter spoke and ended the debate. Then we are told that The Church in Council reached a decision and sent a letter back to Antioch announcing the decision. Now - Because this decision was made by “The Church”, not only was this decision binding on the community at Antioch, but was binding on ALL Christian Communites everywhere.
Please take note that when Peter ended the debate, it is highly unlikely that he silenced everyones doubt. Also it would seem obvious that when the faithful at Antioch recieved the decision, there were those who still harbored doubts. But in each case, the individuals subjugated their personal opinions to the Authority of The Church, or they either left or were put out of the Church in accordance with the instruction of Mt 18:15-18.

This then is How Jesus told us to deal with these kinds of issues.
So the question you must answer is if you are truly willing to submit yourself to Chirst as He commanded you? Are you willing to submit to the Authority of Christ’s Church or not?
If you are, and the ruling comes back against us, we would have to accept it and conform our thinking to yours. If, on the other hand the ruling comes back against you, you would have to conform your thinking to ours.
Just as the Judaizers had to accept the Church’s ruling on the mosaic law at Antioch.

If you are not willing to submit, then you are left with the inescapable fact that you, who believe you are permently saved, are right now in direct disobedience to the Commands and instructions given by Jesus AND recorded in God’s Holy Word, the Scriptures of the Bible.

All the rest of the argumentation back and forth about this verse and that verse means nothing if you are not willing to submit and subjugate your will to that Of Christ in His Church for the sake of the Unity that Christ Prayed for and the Apostles preached.

Peace
James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

But what assurance do you have that you will continue to believe?

This man once believed, but now he most adamantly does not believe, and he spends his life calling on others not to believe. Is he saved because of his former belief? Was he never saved to begin with?

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; 10 if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Not really of our number: the apostate teachers only proved their lack of faith by leaving the community.

according to john’s letter he never believed. your question also brings up to mind the story of the prodigal son who came to his senses and came back and also of the brother who slept with his stepmother in 1 corinthians 5 where he is to be handed to the devil so his flesh would be destroyed that his soul may be saved.

i am saved not by my own doing but by the promises of God and it is those promises i base my salvation. He said he would hold on to me, thank you Jesus!

God bless.